Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[AerospaceTech]

Bro's yours dont know two thing.
Army isnt only give a tank palet to bmc. Army offer all of three competitors. Army say I can give to all of yours one of the two abmk of him 1. Abmk or 2. Abmk. One of the have german based other one modern based infanstructure. And companies looked, thinked and choose one of him with his offers.

Just becauese serial production of 250 tank and makeing prototype not a same thing. You need new huge machines, logistical infanstructure lines, test areas, and new infanstructure for new employess etc. When my visit to fnss factory , factory works with his fully potentional for just ttza's and korkuts . His production line cannot carry altay. Also Otokar is same.
So all firms will use abmks if hims selected.

So another wrong thing you know yours thinking bmc does not know make a tank and give a assistance from rheinmetall on rbss. But you forget one thing . All firms on project gives assistance from foreign firms.

Otokar gives a assistance from Rotem
(koreans), also fnns gives a assistance from bae and already like rbss firm. İn the beginnig on the serial production project bmc wants a work with koreans but koreands refuse him just because hims agreement with Otokar, after that bmc want a work with bae but they denied him for his cooperation with fnss. So bmc goes the germans but senate does not approve this for political problems.And now bmc going alone and gaining engineers from another firms like a crazy.

On the otherhand if project taken by otokar. Otokar cannot be produce this tanks due for engine ban from germany. Yes otokar designed this tank but bmc convert him more reilable tank. Just compare two otokar and bmc versions.

And last one political parties on the top generally supports many firms on the fields for creating new beast firms. Like koreans did it hyundai, samsung or japans did it on mitsubishi . İn our country that firms cannot be gezici Otokar or fnss. He will be head supported person.

OTOKAR was the best option, BMC was favoured because of political reasons.
You can not make this another way.
Ethem Sancak's interview says more than you what you said.

 

[anatolia]

ALTAY'ın seri üretimine talip firmalardan ikinci bir “en iyi ve en son teklif" istendi

You are right but, all the firms gave their second "en iyi ve en son teklif" which happened to be the third tender, in which BMC managed to get.

Anyways, winner of the Altay tender decided in 2015.

They are not making Karasu plant (stopped) and not investing anything in Tank-Palet....i don't want to go in more detail. I don't give a fvck about Otokar, FNSS, or BMC, i don't own those companies nor o i have any shares.

The thing is, if you mix blemish in tenders as the state. Than companies will think "Whatever we do, we won't get the tender because of the connections of a single company". So they won't invest in defense industry anymore, (think about Otokar stopping all of it's defence industry branches), this will cause ceasing of competition and lowering the quality of the Turkish products all together. As well as discouraging new investments.


Sorry, i can't do that. I'm not forcing anyone to believe me.

iam big fun of koc group and i do have stock shares from koc holdingss companies but i think i know koc group that they wont do work for little money by the way this was very smart choice for my opinion..also bmc is so new and ambious that meaning can take risk to get bigger unless like koc group is huge and does not had very much interesting to take a risk.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ansu fati]

I don’t understand why people are focused too much on the political aspect of the altay deal when this kind of unfair controversial behavior is common in the world(happened in the past and will happen in the future) today bmc is favored tomorrow it will be koç...
The important thing is to find an engine and finally start the serial production before it’s too late though after watching successful drone strikes on assad tanks I have some doubts whether altay tank is truly necessary

 

[Saithan]

I don't see you guys disagreeing tbh.

Without diving too deep:
1. Otokar was the best option for delivering Altay, but was too expensive( 7B Euro = 28 mio./piece), but we don't know if the price included the use of the national ressources as Ethem Sancak (ES) mentioned. I imagine Koc wanted to produce Altay in a brand new factory with best possible equipment, which would explain the high price.

2. BMC is going to produce it at cost+12,5% profit (3,5B Euro = 14 mio./piece), but all projects have aprox. 10-15% buffer for unexpected cost, but ES says he hasn't calculated with that in the offer, which is very risky indeed. I imagine he'll have to ask for additional funding at some point.

3. BMC offer basically prioritizes national ressources as much as possible and also investment in old infrastructure, but using old tank palet factory in the equation is both a help and maybe stretching the ressources a bit. Which would result in the delivery of Altay to be dragged out. The mentioned knowhow in the old factory is very important though.

The price difference 28 mio (Koc) and 14 mio (BMC) is huge, I am not sure the cost can be any less than 20 mio. euro per. tank. when you calculate everything. but if MKEK can make ammo factory robotics for ½ price of buying from abroad and triple production. Then I guess it could be possible.

Also I think it's clear that the Tank Palet Factory was not sold off, but leased to BMC. BMC will invest in the old factory and renew it instead of paying rent.

It is unclear if the goverment will close it afterwards when Karasu is build. I don't think it would be smart move to close it though. It creates jobs, and karasu will create jobs, so just have both of them.

ES also points out the because of the engine issue/embargo we're not producing any Firtina, didn't we have a domestic engine ready for Firtina ?

 

[Ansu fati]

ES also points out the because of the engine issue/embargo we're not producing any Firtina, didn't we have a domestic engine ready for Firtina ?

Firtina’s engine is MTU so what he’s saying is probably true

 

[-------]

ES also points out the because of the engine issue/embargo we're not producing any Firtina, didn't we have a domestic engine ready for Firtina ?

It's currently in development and probably running in tandem with Altay engine.

 

[Saithan]

It's currently in development and probably running in tandem with Altay engine.
View attachment 631993

hm... wouldn't the 1k HP engine be more than enough for Kaplan MT since it weights less than 40 ton. Kaplan has 20HP/ton according to https://www.army-technology.com/projects/kaplan-mt-modern-medium-weight-tank/

 

[-------]

hm... wouldn't the 1k HP engine be more than enough for Kaplan MT since it weights less than 40 ton. Kaplan has 20HP/ton according to https://www.army-technology.com/projects/kaplan-mt-modern-medium-weight-tank/

Kaplan is powered by an inline-six 600hp engine. I wouldn't think V8 would fit into it, perhaps the 600hp engine in development would.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

hm... wouldn't the 1k HP engine be more than enough for Kaplan MT since it weights less than 40 ton. Kaplan has 20HP/ton according to https://www.army-technology.com/projects/kaplan-mt-modern-medium-weight-tank/

It's also about what engine Indonesia wants since they are the end user. Indonesia will probably not want an engine change at this point due to logistics and maintenence. Going with a new engine would be risky for them, unless they make some sort of deal in which the benefits outweigh the negatives or they get hit with sanctions or something (not sure where Kaplan MT's current engine comes from).

If Turkey were to decide to buy the Kaplan MT then I'm sure the domestic engine will be put into it, whether initially or at later stages once the engine's are ready. FNSS and Pindad can also market Kaplan MT with various engine's to new costumers (I think FNSS markets Kaplan MT in Europe and Africa, while Pindad markets it in Asia, or something in these lines).

Besides BMC power, Tumosan is also working on several engine's ranging to (or maybe even above) 1000 hp if I recall correctly. They have already won a government contract to deliver engine's to FNSS for Pars 4x4 and 6x6. I can't find the details as to how much hp these particular engines are (they could be 530hp).
https://www.defenceturk.net/fnss-omttza-projesi-kapsaminda-tumosana-avans-odemesini-yapti

 

[Indos]

The important thing is to find an engine and finally start the serial production before it’s too late though after watching successful drone strikes on assad tanks I have some doubts whether altay tank is truly necessary

Can you give me a news link and a Youtube channel that can confirm that event truly happen ?

 

[mehmeTcc]

Can you give me a news link and a Youtube channel that can confirm that event truly happen ?

Check out Clash Report on Twitter. It is an unofficial TSK infowar account that reports real combat footage

 

[Agha Sher]

Can you give me a news link and a Youtube channel that can confirm that event truly happen ?

You haven't seen it?? Turkish drones massacred Assad's militia, his tanks and air defense units.

https://mobile.twitter.com/clashreport

 

[Indos]

You haven't seen it?? Turkish drones massacred Assad's militia, his tanks and air defense units.

https://mobile.twitter.com/clashreport

I know about Turkish drone destroying Assad air defense units but till now hasnt seen any report saying any of their tank also get destroyed by Turkish drone. What I see on that twitter account is an IFV/APC get hit although the camera didnt capture further footage of the hit IFV/APC to see the actual damage.

 

[Agha Sher]

I know about Turkish drone destroying Assad air defense units but till now hasnt seen any report saying any of their tank also get destroyed by Turkish drone. What I see on that twitter account is an IFV/APC get hit although the camera didnt capture further footage of the hit IFV/APC to see the actual damage.

Assad primarily has T-55, T-64 and T-72 tanks. Any top-attack hit on them by MAM-L munition will destroy the tanks beyond repair.

 

[Bismarck]

I don’t understand why people are focused too much on the political aspect of the altay deal when this kind of unfair controversial behavior is common in the world(happened in the past and will happen in the future) today bmc is favored tomorrow it will be koç...
The important thing is to find an engine and finally start the serial production before it’s too late though after watching successful drone strikes on assad tanks I have some doubts whether altay tank is truly necessary

Because of what? You figh/strike a second class enemy which is totally broke and not able to defend on them self, because of 10 year civil war. You need MBTs.