Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[-SINAN-]

The South Korean system is still considered inferior to the Russian Export Arena-E and the Israeli Trophy. Yet the RPG30 could not pass Russian Military trialls until it successfully proved it could defeat the Arena-E and Trophy, it passed those trials. Basically this means that the RPG30 could probably defeat our system considering that the chances of Akkor being superior to Arena-E and Trophy are slim. The Israelis even had to create a new system to add the the Trophy called Coat or something to aid in countering the RPG30.

The current Akkor is only our first attempt and the advent of better tech and an actual requirement for the advancement of hard kill systems will push our engineers to improve it with a new model in the next few years so hopefully the next model will be superior to the Arena-E and Trophy.

So Barbaros to answer your question the chances of Akkor defeating RPG30 are slim but maybe possible if it was a design requirement, which might explain the recent delay of the system. But future models of Akkor are probably going to gain the ability to defeat it.

Too much, assumption in 1 post.

There are reports that Trophy has been modified to counter RPG-30 and field tested.
Military Analysis: RPG-30

Other than that, your "this system is better than that, our system is inferior to those" are just assumptions and you didn't evaluated the system based on their performance and technical parameters but just with your imagination.

 

[Falcon26]

Kudos to the Turks for producing a world class tank.

 

[T-123456]

just too much Information, do u have any small thread or websidw beside wiki ?

What is it that you want to know about the tank?

 

[Random111]

just too much Information, do u have any small thread or websidw beside wiki ?

Turkeys new current+somewhat next gen (gen 4? 4.5?) tank that if successful will be fielded in big numbers and used to replace all the older tanks (hopefully). Tank itself is current gen, but some of the technology on it will be next gen and carry on for a long time if all goes well.

 

[Barbaros]

A member of Akkor design team gives crucial specs.
Akkor will have superior capabilities such as :

-It will use blast warhead instead of fragmentation.
-proximity fuse instead of time delayed, time delayed fuses can miss some targets like RPG's which have a variable trust.
-A very short response time, under 300ms. Will even be effective against rockets fired from 50m.
-The above specs also allow it to deflect kinetic projectiles fired from a tanks main gun. APS fragmentation warheads can't deflect kinetic projectiles.

@Jackal131, if short response time is the solution for RPG-30, then it should be possible.

 

[Jackal131]

Too much, assumption in 1 post.

There are reports that Trophy has been modified to counter RPG-30 and field tested.
Military Analysis: RPG-30

Other than that, your "this system is better than that, our system is inferior to those" are just assumptions and you didn't evaluated the system based on their performance and technical parameters but just with your imagination.

It was the South Koreans themselves who acknowledged their system has not performed as well as the Arena-E and Trophy; there were heavy discussions to abandon their indigenous system because the Arena-E system the Russians gave them for testing outperformed the Korean system but was also much cheaper. No assumption there; test results my friend.

I mentioned in my post about the Israeli counter, clearly you turned on fanboy mode and wrote a reply without even reading my entire comment. The Israeli system is called Trench Coat.

If you read my entire post you would also see that I said "until we know the Akkors reset/re-engagement time there is no way of knowing if it can defeat the RPG30". As you can see I stated there that we cannot give a definite answer until we find out Akkors reset time.

Here are the facts that we do know:
-Akkor is a version of the South Korean system. FACT not assumption.
-And the South Korean tests proved Arena-E to be far superior than their own system. FACT not assumption.
-The RPG30 had to defeat the Arena-E to pass Russian trials. FACT not assumption.

What those facts bring to attention is that the RPG30, can easily defeat a Russian system that is far superior to the South Korean system that we have used as a foundation for our system.

Since there was no release of the Akkors reset/re-engagement times we have to go off the currently existing facts. And the currently existing facts say that Akkor cannot defeat the RPG30.

Once new facts are released about the Akkor such as its reset time, or maybe it was built with the ability to defeat the RPG30 being a requirement in its design. Then we will know for definite

Most of this is true except the South Korean APS (KAPS) isn't considered inferior to Trophy or Arena at all, in fact it's superior to them both in many ways. Also, Akkor has been in development since 2008 when the KAPS didn't even exist yet (or was itself in development), so calling it a copy of it is not accurate.

Mate the Koreans themselves nearly cancelled their own system because the Arena outperformed it completely. The entire program was gonna be cancelled, they couldn't create a system better than the Russian export system and it was still far more expensive than the Arena. This is public knowledge. The only reason they didnt cancel was because they new they could learn from creating the KAPS and develop a new version KAPS 2 if you want to call it. That system should be more promising.

The entire Korean team came to Turkey with the tech transfer from their system and stayed during the designs and development phase.. What does that tell you. Lets hope it was the KAPS 2 tech that the South Korean engineers came with.

I don't understand why people comment on some our own systems here without following the SSM and company announcements about tech transfers and visiting teams for assistance.

 

[-SINAN-]

you read my entire post you would also see that I said "until we know the Akkors reset/re-engagement time there is no way of knowing if it can defeat the RPG30".

Mate, do you absolutely know that AKKOR needs a reset time for firing it's secondary projectile ? Can't you fire simultaneously or within a very short time frame.

I mean firing one to precursor charge and a second one to main charge ?

If you look across to forum i have asked these questions to many people, i also asked the very same question to a Roketsan engineer, "However they said it's confidential info."

2-) Another method is if you can differentiate between the main charge and precursor charge, you can target the main charge. However you need a time-fuze instead of the proximity fuze.

While time-fuze would perform better against RPG-30, proximity fuze would perform better against likes of RPG-29 which has variable thrust..... This is a complex issue.

Here are the facts that we do know:
-Akkor is a version of the South Korean system. FACT not assumption.
-And the South Korean tests proved Arena-E to be far superior than their own system. FACT not assumption.
-The RPG30 had to defeat the Arena-E to pass Russian trials. FACT not assumption.

Can you support your facts with source ?

 

[Jackal131]

@Jackal131, if short response time is the solution for RPG-30, then it should be possible.

Not the response time but the reset/re-engagement time is what is important. The response time is how fast the system goes from not active to engaging a threat.

The reset time is how fast the system can fire at a second threat after engaging one threat.

So for example if an RPG7 munition is fired at the Akkor, and the Akkor detects and engages it, how long does the Akkor need before it is ready to fire again. If the Akkor needs more than 0.2-0.5 seconds to fire again after firing once then that means it cannot defeat the RPG30.

However there are other ways as I have mentioned in previous comments. If it was a design requirement that the Akkor be able to defeat the RPG30 then there might be other methods. For example even if reset time isn't fast enough; the system might be programmed to recognize the RPG30 and engage the actual warhead instead of the dummy rocket. We would have to posses an stash of RPG30 launchers in order to evaluate / test such a design feature.

 

[Barbaros]

However there are other ways as I have mentioned in previous comments. If it was a design requirement that the Akkor be able to defeat the RPG30 then there might be other methods. For example even if reset time isn't fast enough; the system might be programmed to recognize the RPG30 and engage the actual warhead instead of the dummy rocket. We would have to posses an stash of RPG30 launchers in order to evaluate / test such a design feature.

That's a fine solution, another solution could be recognizing a tandem rocket and just fire 2 APS rounds with about 100-200ms delay between it.

 

[Jackal131]

Here is a video of the Korean system lads on first page of a google search about the system. If anyone has the time / patience to dig up archived military photos thread where Koreans were keeping us updated on testing it would be nice.
Notice how our system is clearly influenced by this design.
Global Defence: Tank's Hard kill Active Protective System

I suggest you read up some on the specs of the Korean system to understand what some of the characteristics of the Akkor will be.

Nice read also about the system specs which show the difference in quality with other systems.
As there are unknowns with Akkor it would be nice if any of you have any details that are 100% certain so we can add them in below.
For Example:

Detection Range:
This is the range at which a projectile is detected and engaged. The issue here is that very short range detection requires very fast reaction times. Which is not easy to achieve. Long range detection means there are higher chances of the APS engaging a rocket that isnt even fired at the vehicle or mistaking friendly munitions from enemy especially in urban combat. The shorter the range the more certain the system is that the rocket being detected is aimed at the vehicle. But shorter range needs faster reaction times.

KAPS = 150m
Akkor = 50m Superior.
Arena-E = 50m Superior.

Reaction Time:
KAPS = 2000-3000 milliseconds
Akkor = 300 milliseconds
Arena-E = 70 milliseconds Superior.

Coverage:
KAPS = Sides only
Akkor = 360 Degrees if military requires. Not certain until tank enters service with Akkor kit installed Superior.
Arena-E = 270 Degrees

Price:
KAPS = $600,000
Akkor = ?
Arena-E = $300,000 Superior.

Threat to escorting Infantry:
Arena-E and Akkor are dangerous to escorting infantry. Just as bad as the Trench Coat upgraded Trophy. KAPS usually engages at a distance from the vehicle meaning they are safer form friendly infantry.

Remember lads if anyone has any certain info add it in.

 

[-SINAN-]

Detection Range: Anything fired at the vehicle from inside this range cannot be engaged.
KAPS = 150m
Akkor = ?
Arena = 50m Superior.

Akkor: 50m

Coverage:
KAPS = Sides only
Akkor = ? Depends on launchers rotational coverage and number of launchers. Hopefully not sides only like KAPS.
Arena = 270 Degrees Superior.

Akkor: 360 Degrees Horizontal, 70 Degrees vertical.

 

[Yellow-place]

 

[Jackal131]

View attachment 285248

Perfect Are these stats certain. I will add them anyway. The Issue is with Range and reaction time.

The regular old cheap RPG7 round travels 115 meters per secon so that would require roughly 550-600 milliseconds to travel 50m. Meaning this falls inside the Akkors reaction time ! Great news !. But this also means that Akkor like the Arena, has disregarded the threat to escorting infantry.

 

[Barbaros]

Here is a video of the Korean system lads on first page of a google search about the system. If anyone has the time / patience to dig up archived military photos thread where Koreans were keeping us updated on testing it would be nice.
Notice how our system is clearly influenced by this design.

I suggest you read up some on the specs of the Korean system to understand what some of the characteristics of the Akkor will be.

Nice read also about the system specs which show the difference in quality with other systems.
As there are unknowns with Akkor it would be nice if any of you have any details that are 100% certain so we can add them in below.
For Example:

Detection Range:
This is the range at which a projectile is detected and engaged. The issue here is that very short range detection requires very fast reaction times. Which is not easy to achieve. Long range detection means there are higher chances of the APS engaging a rocket that isnt even fired at the vehicle or mistaking friendly munitions from enemy especially in urban combat. The shorter the range the more certain the system is that the rocket being detected is aimed at the vehicle. But shorter range needs faster reaction times.

KAPS = 150m
Akkor = ?
Arena = 50m Superior.

Reaction Time:
KAPS = 2000-3000 milliseconds
Akkor = 300 milliseconds
Arena = 70 milliseconds Superior.

Coverage:
KAPS = Sides only
Akkor = ? Depends on launchers rotational coverage and number of launchers. Hopefully not sides only like KAPS.
Arena = 270 Degrees Superior.

Price:
KAPS = $600,000
Akkor = ?
Arena = $300,000 Superior.

Threat to escorting Infantry:
Arena is by far the most dangerous to escorting infantry. Just as bad as the Trench Coat upgraded Trophy. KAPS and AKKOR use smart munitions and usually engage at a distance from the vehicle meaning they are safer form friendly infantry.

Remember lads if anyone has any certain info add it in.

The expert in the video says, it detects 360°, angle above 70° and range 500m. He adds that with these detection angles it can neutralize javelins, Hellfires fired from choppers.
To be more clear about response time he says, "an RPG fired from 100m hits after 300ms. But we can destroy rockets fired from 50m". That means the actual response time is 150ms.

 

[Jackal131]

The expert in the video says, it detects 360°, angle above 70° and range 500m. He adds that with these detection angles it can neutralize javelins, Hellfires fired from choppers.
To be more clear about response time he says, "an RPG fired from 100m hits after 300ms. But we can destroy rockets fired from 50m". That means the actual response time is 150ms.

I am curious to know which RPG they used for testing as flying 100m in 300ms would mean roughly 330 meters per second velocity. Anyone know of a munition that flies at that speed.

Saying we can destroy rockets at 50m does not state the reaction time is definitely 150 milliseconds. Consider what I am writing below.
I am suspicious of what he stated. Considering that the M72 LAW is known to be used for testing the Akkor and the LAW flies at 145 meters per second. Meaning at 50m it would take 330miliseconds to reach its target. I believe he is speaking about the LAW and not the RPG.

Having an engagement time below 340 milliseconds would allow the Akkor to destroy the LAW at 50m. And we all know and the LAW was used for tests.

50m engagement does not automatically imply it can react it 150 milliseconds. It just means some missiles can be destroyed within 50m, like the LAW . This would imply roughly 300millisecond reaction.