'Allah' for Muslims only: Malaysia's top court

[Jaanbaz]

@Developereo , @dexter , @Jaanbaz, @gambit

"And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender."

Surah. 29:46


AMEN. AMEEN.

Many Muslims in developing countries do not read Quran with translation. Most of Muslims are not Arabs so I wonder do they even understand what they are reciting? They believe whatever their local village idiot/cleric tells them.

 

[gambit]

it's you who is not only off-base, but you're making a big deal and generalizing about something that happened in one country...by the way as a Muslim I hold Jesus Christ (PBUH) - aka Hazrat ISSA in high esteem and regards

There are many ways to 'generalize' about something or some groups.

If I generalize that all bodies of water are salty just from tasting sea water, I would be wrong. But what do all bodies of water have in common other than salt ? The point here is that while one Muslim country have a law that prevents Christians from using the word 'Allah', another Muslim country have another law targeting Christians under the same or similar meme. Ever heard of 'fuzzy logic' ? That is how people thinks 99.999% of their waking time. Generalizations falls under fuzzy logic. If our brain-vision interconnect evolved to focus on moving objects or our need for order compels us to search for patterns to explain what we observe of the world, then how is it any different regarding cultures ? No different at all.

There is a pattern in the Muslim countries on how the Muslims treat non-Muslims. It is pattern that contains discrimination, persecution, and contempt.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

oh please....dont act as if there isnt intolerance in the country that took you in

 

[Developereo]

Be more specific, instead of running your mouth and not coming up with anything concrete bring in specifics. Are we not talking about borrowed word and people like you getting butt hurt about it?

We are talking about unscrupulous people deliberately using words to deceive people. The deceit is all the more egregious when they use words which have have no natural place in that context.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/us/13beliefs.html?_r=0

“At the extreme,” Dr. Reynolds said, “these Christian missionaries will grow beards like Muslims, give up pork, even say that they are ‘muslims’ — lower-case ‘m’ — in the Arab-adjective sense of ‘submissive to God.’ ”
[...]
For example, the missionary board recommends that in some cases missionaries use “Allah” to refer to God.
[...]
The missionaries’ use of “Allah” to refer to the Christian God thus strikes Dr. Caner as an error both semantic and theological.

 

[Aepsilons]

Many Muslims in developing countries do not read Quran with translation. Most of Muslims are not Arabs so I wonder do they even understand what they are reciting? They believe whatever their local village idiot/cleric tells them.

Blind zealotry should be refrained from, the Compassion and Mercy of the Almighty alone belongs to Him. Be a person a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, or any other faith,...religion is a guide for man to know and develop a personal relationship with The Almighty. I would not be surprised that those whom our religious leaders teach will 'inherit' hellfire might even find salvation , through the Mercy of God.

Man cannot know the complete Heart of God, nor can man make judgment of other men on their faith. It alone belongs to The Almighty.

For me, I think that the Malaysian court made a mistake in the prohibition of the use of 'Allah'. Why prohibit it? The Names of God is beautiful. Why prevent something that is Sacrosanct ?

 

[gambit]

oh please....dont act as if there isnt intolerance in the country that took you in

Did I say there are not any ?

Ever heard of Dr. Peter Rhee ?

Peter M. Rhee, MD, MPH | Department of Surgery
TRAUMA RED by Peter Rhee, Gordon Dillow | Kirkus

Born in South Korea and raised partly in Uganda and then in the United States,...

In a recent TV interview, Rhee wept for 6 US Marines he treated when he was on active duty. The event was 10 yrs ago and it still affected him emotionally. I doubt those six US Marines saw Rhee as anything other than a fellow American who they did not hesitate to trust with their lives.

The country that took me in is a far far better society than the one you are in.

 

[punit]

We are talking about unscrupulous people deliberately using words to deceive people. The deceit is all the more egregious when they use words which have have no natural place in that context.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/us/13beliefs.html?_r=0

“At the extreme,” Dr. Reynolds said, “these Christian missionaries will grow beards like Muslims, give up pork, even say that they are ‘muslims’ — lower-case ‘m’ — in the Arab-adjective sense of ‘submissive to God.’ ”
[...]
For example, the missionary board recommends that in some cases missionaries use “Allah” to refer to God.
[...]
The missionaries’ use of “Allah” to refer to the Christian God thus strikes Dr. Caner as an error both semantic and theological.

so for the misdeed of a few .. u want to prevent a whole community from using what is rightfully theirs !!

 

[Aepsilons]

We are talking about unscrupulous people deliberately using words to deceive people. The deceit is all the more egregious when they use words which have have no natural place in that context.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/us/13beliefs.html?_r=0

“At the extreme,” Dr. Reynolds said, “these Christian missionaries will grow beards like Muslims, give up pork, even say that they are ‘muslims’ — lower-case ‘m’ — in the Arab-adjective sense of ‘submissive to God.’ ”
[...]
For example, the missionary board recommends that in some cases missionaries use “Allah” to refer to God.
[...]
The missionaries’ use of “Allah” to refer to the Christian God thus strikes Dr. Caner as an error both semantic and theological.

My concern is the fact that Malaysia has a very eclectic religious life; some 60% of the people belong Islam, but another 20% are Buddhists, and another 10% are also Christians, and another 6% are Hindus . I can think of many reasons why some preachers , priests, gurus might convey a message of one-ness , a message of tolerance, and might emphasize that Brahma, Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Allah are but names of the same One Creator. And now with this law, it can be used to criminalize it? Just my point of view. Also, a person has the right to listen to preachers, imams, gurus and find the beauty of the message, if a person is compelled to know more about a religion and convert, then is that so wrong? Its the beauty of free will, and the power of the Spirit of God...!

To quote scripture..."The Truth will set you free.."

 

[Developereo]

so for the misdeed of a few .. u want to prevent a whole community from using what is rightfully theirs !!

The use of 'Allah' by Christians in Malaysia has a very interesting history. It was used in some part of Malaysia, but the rest of Malaysian Christians didn't use Allah. Malay language already has a word 'Tuhan' (or something like it) to refer to God in the generic.

The popularization of 'Allah' amongst the wider Malaysian Christian community is a relatively recent phenomenon, in line with the arrival or Western missionary organizations loaded with cash.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

What I meant by 'abstract' in that context was referring to the way missionaries deliberately try to fool people into thinking they are joining Muslim prayers when, in fact, they are being led into a canvassing session for other religions.

The term 'abstract' v/s 'concrete' referred to the tactics used by missionaries. not about the content of their message. The use of these tactics is not an abstract possibility, it is a concrete fact.

PS. I agree that there are many innocent Malaysian Christians who would use Allah in an innocuous way, but it is also true that missionaries abuse it in the way I mentioned. It is unfortunate that a few bad apples have to spoil it for the majority. Perhaps a better solution is to allow 'Allah' for everybody and use some other means to regulate missionaries.

And your opinion is that a country which supports freedom of religion, this should be illegal?
I don't even buy that.

Someone which is a true muslim will detect a church very easily, and is free to leave if they want to.
They also have the option to stay, and listen to the message, and convert, if they think the message
makes more sense, than that of Islam.

If you are against freedom of religion, then you can of course continue to view missionaries as drug dealers
that need to be curtailed.

 

[punit]

The use of 'Allah' by Christians in Malaysia has a very interesting history. It was used in some part of Malaysia, but the rest of Malaysian Christians didn't use Allah. Malay language already has a word 'Tuhan' (or something like it) to refer to God in the generic.

The popularization of 'Allah' amongst the wider Malaysian Christian community is a relatively recent phenomenon, in line with the arrival or Western missionary organizations loaded with cash.

I mean why are u so afraid ! in India some Christian missionaries not only use words like IShwar/prabhu(God). Ish Putra (jesus) but also depicts Virgin Merry dressed as Hindu goddess !

 

[Developereo]

And your opinion is that a country which supports freedom of religion, this should be illegal?
I don't even buy that.

Someone which is a true muslim will detect a church very easily, and is free to leave if they want to.
They also have the option to stay, and listen to the message, and convert, if they think the message
makes more sense, than that of Islam.

If you are against freedom of religion, then you can of course continue to view missionaries as drug dealers
that need to be curtailed.

It's not about freedom of religion. Malaysian Christians have been practicing Christianity for centuries without using the word 'Allah' and they are free to continue doing so.

The problem, as I mentioned, is that some extreme missionary organizations are using 'Allah' as a deceptive tactic to lure people in. The proselytizing is not as straight forward as you assume. It is a very slow, indirect process where the subject thinks they are discussing Islam when, in fact, they are being fed missionary literature.

I have no issues with people being up-front about their intentions.

 

[Aepsilons]

And your opinion is that a country which supports freedom of religion, this should be illegal?
I don't even buy that.

Someone which is a true muslim will detect a church very easily, and is free to leave if they want to.
They also have the option to stay, and listen to the message, and convert, if they think the message
makes more sense, than that of Islam.

If you are against freedom of religion, then you can of course continue to view missionaries as drug dealers
that need to be curtailed.

True. In fact, why have fear in knowing that one is going to a church, mosque, temple? For me, i am a Christian, but I am not closed to the idea of going to Hindu temples, Jain Temples, Jewish Temples, Mosques if my friends invite me. In fact, some of my close friends are Muslims and have accompanied them to the local Mosque when they break fast during Ramadan. I've enjoyed learning more about Islam through a first hand experience aside from my own personal readings of the Quran and studying the Hadiths. When friends of mine invite me to a Tamil Temple, i'm always curious to know the meanings of religious festivals, and amazed by the devotions of the believers.

I think one should not be so closed minded in their faith. Having faith doesnt necessarily having or holding strong negative views on different religions.

 

[Developereo]

I mean why are u so afraid ! in India some Christian missionaries not only use words like IShwar/prabhu(God). Ish Putra (jesus) but also depicts Virgin Merry dressed as Hindu goddess !

Like I said, it's not a question of being afraid, but asking people to be honest about their intentions.

If you want to tell people about Jesus and Christianity, say so up front.

Don't say " come worship Ram" or "come worship Allah" when your intention is to convert them.

 

[gambit]

i dont like your tune and i dont get your sarcasm if there is any (cause u probably suck in it) .

as i said before , i agree that this ruling was mere stupidity and misjudgment . there are heck lot of stupid and disgusting things happening all over the world . but this doesnt mean that its islam or christianity's fault .

its our fault . just take a look :

Muslim Discrimination Cases Disproportionately High In U.S.

Islamophobia: Understanding Anti-Muslim Sentiment in the West

If you do not throw children and elderly -- physically weak -- into the jungle to be victims of wild animals, then why should a Muslim government be careless with the spiritually weak ? If anything, a Muslim government should be proactive and create legal prophylactic measures to discourage Christians from even publicly displaying their faith, let alone trying to convert. After all, Christians are deceitful and Jews...Welll...That is a different subject, ain't it ?