Alexander the Great/ Mauryans/ Graeco-Bactrians

[Pakistani E]

You dont?
The difference is that one side has a psychological problem with his/her skin colour,wants to be ''white'' forever,thats why the creams and bleeching,while the other side likes a tan which happens every summer anyway. So,its nothing new for the white person,no complex at all.

Nope. I had the fortune of being around a large number of White Europeans, especially women, who wish to be dark. Not just for summer, they literally wish they were born darker, it's why they love the "Tall, dark and handsome" trope so much. They spend thousands on tanning booths, spend hours in the sun on holidays, and even get cancer in the process, just so they can be a shade darker. They proudly say we want to marry Black men so our children are "exotic looking" and not boring "Pale". I actually have a friend who always says she wishes she was born Turkish. Lol.

I didn't come away from it thinking it was just a fad. But my experience isn't an encompassing thing, so I may be wrong.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

You dont?
The difference is that one side has a psychological problem with his/her skin colour,wants to be ''white'' forever,thats why the creams and bleeching,while the other side likes a tan which happens every summer anyway. So,its nothing new for the white person,no complex at all.

I would go with @Sher Shah Awan on this. While tan happens naturely every year and thus is a natural condition as much as a person turning darker as they get older which often happens to brown skinned people. This is most evident in Pakistani farmers or workers who toil away in the sunshine. Over decades they will get darker and this can be seen in differantiation in areas of skin covered up. Thus a person using the skin whitening cream to recreate his/her normative skin complexion is no differant from those who tan themselves to recreate their summer iterations.

However having said this, there is much 'abuse' if that is the right word for it. This happens on both sides of divide. I have seen white people [often women] who have charred [with potential skin damage/carcinoma] themselves to the point where they look ridicalous. Of course then you also have people who abuse the skin lightening by turning albinos. Thus both sides are apt to abuse although the skin lightening gets all the attention - I think because of the colonial legacy/history etc

 

[T-123456]

Nope. I had the fortune of being around a large number of White Europeans, especially women, who wish to be dark. Not just for summer, they literally wish they were born darker, it's why they love the "Tall, dark and handsome" trope so much. They spend thousands on tanning booths, spend hours in the sun on holidays, and even get cancer in the process, just so they can be a shade darker. They proudly say we want to marry Black men so our children are "exotic looking" and not boring "Pale". I actually have a friend who always says she wishes she was born Turkish. Lol.

I didn't come away from it thinking it was just a fad. But my experience isn't an encompassing thing, so I may be wrong.

Maybe because they're British(to white/pink almost),especially Scotish women are extreme pinkish(if its a word).
In the Netherlands/Germany/Belgium triangle i never met the women you mentioned(i know manyyyyyy).
And about marrying black or Arab or even Turk,maybe 001%,its all Multi culti here but still,not like in GB.
Btw,never experienced any race issues.

This is most evident in Pakistani farmers or workers who toil away in the sunshine.

Why would a farmer or worker want to use a whitening cream,for what purpose?
See anything strange here?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We have seen the effects of a brilliant mind

Joe, I take it you have had tiple or two fueling the burst of wax lyrical.

the extent of the Indus Valley Civilisation shows clearly that it was not only not confined to the Indus Valley

No civilization that I know or very few were ever limited to specific boundaries or certainly not conforming to modern borders. However all had a pivot or foci from which point in irregular waves they spread out, gradually fading away on the edges. It was not like any had a precise border with a Trumpian wall.

Let's look at Ancient Egyptian civilization which had the Nile as it's foci [analogous to IVC having River Indus] but it spread south into modern Sudan and it's influence extended as far south as modern Eritrea and Somalia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_pyramids

In fact the Ancient Egytians civilizations spread out from it's foci and permeated south along the Nile to Sudan, Ethopia, Somalia, Eritrea etc. This has given fuel to Afrocentrism wherein Ancient Egypt is seen as a attempt by Europeans to undo a African civilization by corralling it to the mouth the Nile on the Mediteranean. In other words carving a African civilization into a region and branding it as 'Egyptian' or as a entirely separate entity from rest of the continent.

To my eyes I regard the Indian attempt at diffusing IVC into a sub-continental civilization [I term it Gangacentrism] no differant to Afrpcentrism. Both are attempts to diffuse a regional civilization to a wider geography. If some IVC sites lap over into Afghanistan or India this is no differant from AE sites spilling into Sudan,Ethopia,Eritrea, Somalia etc.

Indeed I would argue that IVC 'fits' into Pakistan far better then Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece do with the the modern states mostly associated with them - Egypt and Greece. Note. Macedonia, Turkey and even Albania lay claim to aspects of Ancient Greece. I digress but compared to the 'fit' of Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, IVC fits better in Pakistan. 93% of the Indus Valley is within Pakistan. The foci is Pakistan. One look at IVC on a map of India clearly shows that IVC is hanging on the edge with most of India distal. Whereas almost of all of Pakistan sits on the foci of IVC with no location being more then hundred mile from large OVC site.

Why would a farmer or worker want to use a whitening cream,for what purpose?

That was a conspicious example to make my point. It's as obtuse as me asking why would somebody want to look like their summer iterations? And I must add here that people I have seen in UK who tan themselves [tan shops are everywhere] recreate a complexion that is not their normal summer tan but goes well beyond that. Or it would be the colour you would get by sprawling outside almost full on naked day after day in the summer. That is not natural.

And I must reiterate. Lying naked under intense tanning lights in a crazy looking contraption with eye shields, slowly being toasted is, all in a attempt to look like they have been living on sun drenched beaches of Mediteranean is far, far from natural.

 

[T-123456]

That was a conspicious example to make my point. It's as obtuse as me asking why would somebody want to look like their summer iterations? And I must add here that people I have seen in UK who tan themselves [tan shops are everywhere] recreate a complexion that is not their normal summer tan but goes well beyond that. Or it would be the colour you would get by sprawling outside almost full on naked day after day in the summer. That is not natural.

Ok then,lets just say,all these people are nuts.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Ok then,lets just say,all these people are nuts.

Yep. Okay. Crazy as it may sound but I have first hand experiance of a tanning shop. Few years ago we saw a commertial property on sale and I of course went to view the premises. It was being used a tanning shop. Trust me when I went in their the women [most were females] had this bemusd look like 'what the hell is he doing here'? I joked I had come for a tan. As I walked around what a sight. The most un-natural thing you can imagine. I swear it looked uncomforable if not excruciating punishment to be sat underneath those light sources. And some of the women were way darker then me. I shudder to think how many hours and risk of cancer they expose themselves all in a attempt to 'tan'.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

In fact the Ancient Egytians civilizations spread out from it's foci and permeated south along the Nile to Sudan, Ethopia, Somalia, Eritrea etc. This has given fuel to Afrocentrism wherein Ancient Egypt is seen as a attempt by Europeans to undo a African civilization by corralling it to the mouth the Nile on the Mediteranean. In other words carving a African civilization into a region and branding it as 'Egyptian' or as a entirely separate entity from rest of the continent.

To my eyes I regard the Indian attempt at diffusing IVC into a sub-continental civilization [I term it Gangacentrism] no differant to Afrpcentrism. Both are attempts to diffuse a regional civilization to a wider geography. If some IVC sites lap over into Afghanistan or India this is no differant from AE sites spilling into Sudan,Ethopia,Eritrea, Somalia etc.

Indeed I would argue that IVC 'fits' into Pakistan far better then Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece do with the the modern states mostly associated with them - Egypt and Greece. Note. Macedonia, Turkey and even Albania lay claim to aspects of Ancient Greece. I digress but compared to the 'fit' of Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, IVC fits better in Pakistan. 93% of the Indus Valley is within Pakistan. The foci is Pakistan. One look at IVC on a map of India clearly shows that IVC is hanging on the edge with most of India distal. Whereas almost of all of Pakistan sits on the foci of IVC with no location being more then hundred mile from large OVC site.

An Alien culture has no right to usurp our history.

Pakistan is the Indus River, and it is that tie which has bound us together as one civilization since prehistory.

Ok then,lets just say,all these people are nuts.

Northern half of Pakistan like North Punjab, Kashmir, KPK, and parts of Balochistan are light-skinned. They also tend to live in colder environments and have more heritage from Afghanistan or Iran.

A deficiency of most people of the region.
''Skin whitening'' is the best example,black Africans dont care but you(the regions people) do.

It is a holdover from British rule where white skin was idolized and deified, while dark was considered inferior.

Racially most Pakistanis have similar facial features regardless of skin or hair color, esp when compared to neighbors.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

An Alien culture has no right to usurp our history.

Pakistan is the Indus River, and it is that tie which has bound us together as one civilization since prehistory.

Very well said. IVC fits in Pakistan far better then the Nile civilization fits in Egypt. As I posted earlier it's influence went well south into deeper Africa. Which is why some people [many Afro-Americans] claim that civilization as 'African'. They call that Afrocentrism. Where a achievement on given space is claimed by the wider geography. That is Nile = wider Africa continent. This is no differant from Gangacentrism which is Indus = wider Indian sub-continent.

So the question begs why has modern Egypt been far more succesfull in owning, branding the Nile civilization as it's own and left Sudan and wider Africa out in the cold? Well in my opinion three reasons but before I cover them I want Pak members to note that modern Egyptians speak Arabic, write in Arabic script [much like Paks] and are Muslim [same as Paks] but you don't see that being used to question or sever their ownership of their heritage.Anyway back to the three reasons -

• 1. When most of the Nile civilization was dug up by European archeaologists Egypt was a semi-independent state. Thus as the dicoveries were made Egypt naturally took the credit and all literature describes it as such. This is in marked contast to IVC. When the first major sites were dug up the Raj was still in place and as such it was branded as 'Indian'. That stuck as most of the literature described the discoveries in 'India'.
• 2. Afrocentrism or the attempt by Africans to claim Nile as a wider African civilization has come mostly from Afro-Americans who have had to face latent racism. White supremists will do everything to prevent wider Africa to claim Nile and instead carve up lower Nile as a separate entity within the winder Mediteranean thus linking it to Europe. On the other hand Indian's in a desperate effort to garner some shine to their country have used IVC and not faced any major resistence.
• 3. Egypt has done everything to take pride in their heritage whereas Pakistan has ignored the glorious IVC leaving the Indians to take all.

But it's time to make amends. I hope to see millions of tourists one day tripping over Mohenjo Daro, Harappa and then heading north to Greek/Gandharan sites like Taxila/Sirkap. Pakistan should be known as cradle of civilization, location of one of most fantastic synthesis of Greek/Ancient Pakistan civilizations as can be seen in the exquisite artifacts in Peshawar and Taxila Museums.

Not as terrorist hub.

 

[VCheng]

It is a common mistake to assume that India was then the Indus Valley. It is now a mistake assiduously promoted by those who recognise the urgent need for Pakistan to acquire a creation myth, and to be able to point to its existence from ancient times. We have seen the effects of a brilliant mind devoted to this back-story, when @Indus Pakistan coined the ingenious phrase 'co-terminous Pakistan'. That actually means nothing but Pakistan as it should have existed in the past to entitle Pakistanis to claim a coherent identity in the past, when the very focussed and topical need for that nation to exist had never been thought about.

Unfortunately, that wise man's efforts have been taken up by the less wise, and the result is a constant hail-storm of half-baked claims and brags and boasts by the less equipped.

Trying to paint the surface of water a more preferred color just to suit one's whims is an exercise in futility, nothing more.

(But it is fun to observe anyway.)

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Trying to paint the surface of water a more preferred color just to suit one's whims is an exercise in futility, nothing more.

(But it is fun to observe anyway.)

You have anything to add about Alexander the Great and the Greek successor states?

 

[VCheng]

You have anything to add about Alexander the Great and the Greek successor states?

He was one of the greatest warriors and conquerors in human history, no doubt.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

@Joe Shearer

In this era, all sorts of information are readily and instantly available, but some people still believe that 'myths' can be created and propagated easily.

More funny than sad, I would say...

We would appreciate your insight about the topic at hand, brother.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

He was one of the greatest warriors and conquerors in human history, no doubt.

Persia and the Greek states had far more impact on Pakistan and its history at this time than the Ganges-related state (Mauryans.) Plus, Chandragupta Maurya was a Punjabi, so actually he was one of us (part of Indus civilization) as well. Asoka became Buddhist and revolted against Brahmanism. Later Mauryans were also heavily influenced by Greeks, which led to the blossoming of Graeco-Buddhist culture.

It is popular tactic by the West and Indian historians to refer to IVC and Greek-Buddhist capitals of Taxilla, Gandara as "ancient India," but not factual.

The difference becomes even more apparent later with the arrival of more Iranic nomads from Central Asia and the Tarim basin. That will be the topic next time.

 

[VCheng]

Persia and the Greek states had far more impact on Pakistan and its history at this time than the Ganges-related state (Mauryans.) Plus, Chandragupta Maurya was a Punjabi, so actually he was one of us (part of Indus civilization) as well. Asoka became Buddhist and revolted against Brahmanism. Later Mauryans were also heavily influenced by Greeks, which led to the blossoming of Graeco-Buddhist culture.

It is popular tactic by the West and Indian historians to refer to IVC and Greek-Buddhist capitals of Taxilla, Gandara as "ancient India," but not factual.

The difference becomes even more apparent later with the arrival of more Iranic nomads from Central Asia and the Tarim basin. That will be the topic next time.

Please do keep in mind that we also have a proud heritage from a thousand years of ruling over the majority of the Indian subcontinent too. Why give it up?

 

[Pakistani E]

Very well said. IVC fits in Pakistan far better then the Nile civilization fits in Egypt. As I posted earlier it's influence went well south into deeper Africa. Which is why some people [many Afro-Americans] claim that civilization as 'African'. They call that Afrocentrism. Where a achievement on given space is claimed by the wider geography. That is Nile = wider Africa continent. This is no differant from Gangacentrism which is Indus = wider Indian sub-continent.

So the question begs why has modern Egypt been far more succesfull in owning, branding the Nile civilization as it's own and left Sudan and wider Africa out in the cold? Well in my opinion three reasons but before I cover them I want Pak members to note that modern Egyptians speak Arabic, write in Arabic script [much like Paks] and are Muslim [same as Paks] but you don't see that being used to question or sever their ownership of their heritage.Anyway back to the three reasons -

• 1. When most of the Nile civilization was dug up by European archeaologists Egypt was a semi-independent state. Thus as the dicoveries were made Egypt naturally took the credit and all literature describes it as such. This is in marked contast to IVC. When the first major sites were dug up the Raj was still in place and as such it was branded as 'Indian'. That stuck as most of the literature described the discoveries in 'India'.
• 2. Afrocentrism or the attempt by Africans to claim Nile as a wider African civilization has come mostly from Afro-Americans who have had to face latent racism. White supremists will do everything to prevent wider Africa to claim Nile and instead carve up lower Nile as a separate entity within the winder Mediteranean thus linking it to Europe. On the other hand Indian's in a desperate effort to garner some shine to their country have used IVC and not faced any major resistence.
• 3. Egypt has done everything to take pride in their heritage whereas Pakistan has ignored the glorious IVC leaving the Indians to take all.

But it's time to make amends. I hope to see millions of tourists one day tripping over Mohenjo Daro, Harappa and then heading north to Greek/Gandharan sites like Taxila/Sirkap. Pakistan should be known as cradle of civilization, location of one of most fantastic synthesis of Greek/Ancient Pakistan civilizations as can be seen in the exquisite artifacts in Peshawar and Taxila Museums.

Not as terrorist hub.

That's where you're wrong: