Akinci & Aksungur and Turkish Unmanned Fighter Aircraft Program

[cabatli_53]

I dont understand why turkey has given up on completing this project. The project was to design a UAV that can fly up to 30000 feet and stay on air for 24 hours. but now they quit with an altitude of 26000 feet and endurance of 18 hours... just why?

Arkadaşlar bilen var mı niye projeyi bitirmeden teslim ediyoruz?? Anka 30000 foote çıkıp 24 saat havada kalacaktı. ama sadece 26000 foot ve 18 saat uçuşla bırakılıyor???

We aren't some western European country, that's why. We've got operational needs. TEI is working on different engine solutions to replace the current Thielert Centurion 2.0 engine, meanwhile Anka-A will get the job done.

There's no point for a complete project to wait in the shelve. The problem has nothing to do with the plane, the engine is slightly underpowered that's all.

A Summarize for ANKA MALE UAV with some changes on program.

When project signed in 2004, it contains 3 ANKA UAV to be developed and delivered until 2011. There is 2 different UAV planned. One of them ANKA-A with ASELFLIR-300 only and ANKA-B ASELFLIR-300+SAR Radar.(?) With latest SSIK meeting, Optical payload will be replaced with next generation one called AselFlir 235 but Which block will have it is not known)

Now there exist 5 ANKA; first 3 and last 2 quite different. When project started ANKA-A supposed to fly in 23000 feet altitude and 18h duration and ANKA-B to be fly in 30.000 feet altitude and 24h duration.

ANKA-A (Containing Prototype No:1,2,3) uses Theielert engine, which has a take-off weight of 1500kg, climbed an altitude around 23000ft in trials.

ANkA-A (Containing Prototype No: 4,5 now 6 under production) uses more powerfull TEI engine, is the structurally modified version of first 3 prototypes climbed an altitude around 27000ft. It has a lower weight than first 3 prototypes thanks to new composite materials which provide lighter weight at fuselage and new domestic/individuated electronics/materials. At present, Prototype No: 4-5 has aprox. 70kg (S&H magazine) (Aprox. 100kg is planned) lighter than Prototype No:1,2,3. Additions to that, Last 2 prototype has a modified wing which provides better endurance performance at planned altitude.

While TAI is working hard to ease the take-off weight, TEI completed development of new modified Theielert engine which will provide satisfactory increased hoursepower than original Theielert engines (155hp).

Thanks to all those efforts, ANKA-A will climb to an altitude around 27000ft and ANKA-B which prototype will fly in 2013, will climb 30000ft altitude with Aselsan SAR and 235T payloads...

ANKA-TP is a different story which will be almost 2x bigger than original ANKA's. ANKA-TP has a take off weight around 5 tonnes (Anka 1,5 tonnes) and 1 tonnes payload (ANKA 250 kg) capacity. It is planned to climb an altitude around 45000ft(ANKA-A 27000ft, Anka-B 30000ft). It is planned first flight as early as 2016.

 

[cabatli_53]

People and newspapers are all talking AselFlir-300T is too heavy bla bla.. it's total BS. There are heavier FLIRs in the world it makes them more capable, with higher resolution IR cams. That's what makes the plane so useful.

300T is one of the biggest resolution level 2nd generation FLIR system of the World. When 300T is compared with the Flir of Apache helicopter's 2nd generation ArrowHead system, It is realized that 300T is way capable and superior than it regarding resolution level as well.

but 2nd generation optic systems are heavier than 3rd generation which uses QWIP detectors. Cause of being one generation ahead, New generation Flir systems are able to provide better solutions in their lower weight as well. Nothing is special for 300T or Turkish systems' capabilities on their weight. It is about generation differences.


Aselsan has a huge of experience and expertise in sight systems so What Aselsan is going to provide will be the one that performance will be satisfactory enough to challange with European and USA equivalents withou any doubt...

Images taken by Aselsan Scouts

 

[waheedtaj]

We aren't some western European country, that's why. We've got operational needs. TEI is working on different engine solutions to replace the current Thielert Centurion 2.0 engine, meanwhile Anka-A will get the job done.

There's no point for a complete project to wait in the shelve. The problem has nothing to do with the plane, the engine is slightly underpowered that's all.

People and newspapers are all talking AselFlir-300T is too heavy bla bla.. it's total BS. There are heavier FLIRs in the world it makes them more capable, with higher resolution IR cams. That's what makes the plane so useful.

What do you mean? Don't western european countries have operational needs, I mean they may not have a problem like PKK like we do, but they do use drones and stuff in places like afghanistan and iraq....

What was impressing about Anka was it's endurance and Altitude. If the problem is as simple as you stated above, why don't we just complete it????

Every other country in the world can produce a UAV that can fly for a couple of hours above roofs of houses, but we aimed to design at least the third best UAV in the world. Do you really think ANKA will stand a chance against Drones like Global Hawk, Heron, Heron TP, MQ-170, MQ-1, MQ-9???? and don't tell me things like these are HALE's and stuff....

A Summarize for ANKA MALE UAV with some changes on program.

When project signed in 2004, it contains 3 ANKA UAV to be developed and delivered until 2011. There is 2 different UAV planned. One of them ANKA-A with ASELFLIR-300 only and ANKA-B ASELFLIR-300+SAR Radar.(?) With latest SSIK meeting, Optical payload will be replaced with next generation one called AselFlir 235 but Which block will have it is not known)

Now there exist 5 ANKA; first 3 and last 2 quite different. When project started ANKA-A supposed to fly in 23000 feet altitude and 18h duration and ANKA-B to be fly in 30.000 feet altitude and 24h duration.

ANKA-A (Containing Prototype No:1,2,3) uses Theielert engine, which has a take-off weight of 1500kg, climbed an altitude around 23000ft in trials.

ANkA-A (Containing Prototype No: 4,5 now 6 under production) uses more powerfull TEI engine, is the structurally modified version of first 3 prototypes climbed an altitude around 27000ft. It has a lower weight than first 3 prototypes thanks to new composite materials which provide lighter weight at fuselage and new domestic/individuated electronics/materials. At present, Prototype No: 4-5 has aprox. 70kg (S&H magazine) (Aprox. 100kg is planned) lighter than Prototype No:1,2,3. Additions to that, Last 2 prototype has a modified wing which provides better endurance performance at planned altitude.

While TAI is working hard to ease the take-off weight, TEI completed development of new modified Theielert engine which will provide satisfactory increased hoursepower than original Theielert engines (155hp).

Thanks to all those efforts, ANKA-A will climb to an altitude around 27000ft and ANKA-B which prototype will fly in 2013, will climb 30000ft altitude with Aselsan SAR and 235T payloads...

ANKA-TP is a different story which will be almost 2x bigger than original ANKA's. ANKA-TP has a take off weight around 5 tonnes (Anka 1,5 tonnes) and 1 tonnes payload (ANKA 250 kg) capacity. It is planned to climb an altitude around 45000ft(ANKA-A 27000ft, Anka-B 30000ft). It is planned first flight as early as 2016.

I've been following the ANKA program for months, and it's the first time I hear things like 23000ft or 27000ft. But it's ok. Since I'm new to Aerospace I may not have enough info. But please tell me one other thing, what model were the ones that egypt ordered? anka-a or anka-b?

 

[LegionnairE]

What do you mean? Don't western european countries have operational needs, I mean they may not have a problem like PKK like we do, but they do use drones and stuff in places like afghanistan and iraq....

Turkey is the only country in Europe that's producing MALE UAVs. UK(which is the only European force that was involved in Iraq) is buying Predators from the US.

What was impressing about Anka was it's endurance and Altitude. If the problem is as simple as you stated above, why don't we just complete it????

We have completed it. It passed final tests, case closed.

very other country in the world can produce a UAV that can fly for a couple of hours above roofs of houses, but we aimed to design at least the third best UAV in the world. Do you really think ANKA will stand a chance against Drones like Global Hawk, Heron, Heron TP, MQ-170, MQ-1, MQ-9???? and don't tell me things like these are HALE's and stuff...

Even Anka TP won't be a match for Global Hawk. Anka and Heron are comparable Anka has a better sensor array. MQ170.. not much known about the system but we have a project that could be considered an equivalent of X47B. MQ1 is also comperable with Anka and MQ9 is comperable with Anka TP. I'm not here to satisfy your ego, these are just facts.

I've been following the ANKA program for months, and it's the first time I hear things like 23000ft or 27000ft. But it's ok. Since I'm new to Aerospace I may not have enough info. But please tell me one other thing, what model were the ones that egypt ordered? anka-a or anka-b?

Anka-A.. which is what makes sense really, I understand that AF-235 is representing a new generation of FLIRs but i still don't expect it to compete with 300T. It can't. About the service ceiling they couldn't care less.. Egypt is a flat desert country. Anka-A is perfect for them.

 

[cabatli_53]

That's the latest generation 3-5um band QWIP FLIR system of Israel called TopLite-III EOS which is used on various platforms from SAM to attack helicopters, naval platorms as advanced surveillance and targetting pod. Italian Army selected Toplite-3 to upgrade their obsolete Mangusta helicopters as well.

Toplite-3 on Mangusta

Toplite-3 on Spyder

Lets check its weight as an advanced targetting&surveillance pod.

Rafael TopLite-III
IR detector: QWIP 3-5 um
Resolution: 640x480
Weight: 59kg

Aselsan AselFlir 235

IR Detector: QWIP
Resolution: 640x512
Weight: 55kg

 

[cabatli_53]

but When It comes to 2nd generation 8-12um IR detector FLIR systems, So less FLIR systems around the World can compete with AselFlir-300T. That's the wellknown fact.


Documents talking about AH-1Z is comparing their 3nd generation TSS(One of the best 3rd generation FLIR system of USA) AH-1Z FLIR's with Turkey's 2nd generation 300T but They made a strategic mistakes in their documents. Comparing an 2nd generation FLR system with 3rd generation one is not a good idea. In additions, What the specifications they mentioned as 300T actually belongs to AselFlir-200.

300T has;
IR Detector : 576 x 7 FPA (Source mentioned as 240x4 belongs to AselFlir-200)
Image Resolution : 1440 (H) x 576 (W)


Put AH-1Z sensor aside, Apache ArrowHead has a resolution of 4x480 pixel, While 300T has 576 x 7.

BTW, TSS has a resolution of 640x512.

so I said it as 300T is one of the best 2rd generation FLIR system of the World.

 

[LegionnairE]

so I said it as 300T is one of the best 2rd generation FLIR system of the World. One generation ahead bigbrother of 300T called 335 is on the way.

So I keep hearing, but then Turkish MoD comes up with a statement saying that AF-235 will replace the 300T...

If the UAVs we have designed to carry the weight of 110+ Kg AF-300T will switch to 55 Kg AF-235s where in hell are we going to use AF335? To be honest I never liked the UCAV idea. We have lots of platforms in the air that can do what a UCAV does, rotary-wing, fixed-wing gunships and so. In my opinion surveillance is best done by UAVs so just because the plane didn't climb a kilometer more, reducing the optic payload by half makes me mad.

Having better optic payload is more important than having a few cirits on the plane that's all i say. We'll never run out of ammunition, we'll never run out of the means to deliver them. We can destroy anything, it's just a matter of finding it. Now I can only hope that the statement made by the MoD is false and he was being a dumazz as usual. Because otherwise a crappy decision was made.

Anyway, thanks for showing me that.

 

[cabatli_53]

So I keep hearing, but then Turkish MoD comes up with a statement saying that AF-235 will replace the 300T...

If the UAVs we have designed to carry the weight of 110+ Kg AF-300T will switch to 55 Kg AF-235s where in hell are we going to use AF335? To be honest I never liked the UCAV idea. We have lots of platforms in the air that can do what a UCAV does, rotary-wing, fixed-wing gunships and so. In my opinion surveillance is best done by UAVs so just because the plane didn't climb kilometer more, reducing the optic payload by half makes me mad.

Having better optic payload is more important than having a few cirits on the plane that's all i say. We'll never run out of ammunition, we'll never run out of the means to deliver them. We can destroy anything, it's just a matter of finding it. Now I can only hope that the statement made by the MoD is false and he was being a dumazz as usual. Because otherwise a crappy decision was made.

Bro, The real thing I know is that Aselsan commenced development of 235 and 335 FLIR systems as a replacement of 300 and 200 models at the beggining but Changing requirements of Turkish Army, two different Domestic Tactical UAV programs, Hundreds of Mini UAV, Naval programs, SAM's, export tendency...etc all requires not a really high class, quantum resolution, impressive and big FLIR system like 335 but 235 and smaller equivalents like all other FLIR systems locating on export markets at present such as Toplite-3. There isn't any upgrade program seen for T-129 Atak program in near future and ANKA requires lower weight but similar capable FLIR system as well. This fact canalized Aselsan to change the development schedule of FLIR roadway and immediately created a new bigger family concept like; (While development of 335 slow downstep by step cause of market needs)

AselFlir-235
AselFlir-135
AselFlir-100
Mini Gimbal

Development of 335 is planned to be revealed later than those as a mid term solution (Aselsan stated).

 

[LegionnairE]

Anyway, so we are clear that ANKA-B or ANKA-A+ whatever we call it, Will be produced with AF-235 relying more on it's SAR. And they will put a few cirits on it for sure. Even if i don't support the idea, looks like they made the call. Let's hope AF335 can be ready for T129 TUC2 and ANKA-TP. AC-235 won't be much of a priority..

 

[cabatli_53]

BTW, Better optic means better detector technology bro. Quantum Well Infrared Detectors are able to provide sharper, better, superior qualities to observers. Detection ranges are longer than Long Wave Infrared Detectors.

Aselsan and ODTU developed this strategic technology with using different materials developed(take superior results) in Turkey. 5-6 countries have Quantum Well Infrared Technology at present.

 

[cabatli_53]

At present, Aselsan and ODTU is developing SWIR detector technology for very high resolution camera systems such as E/O payload of spy satellites.

 

[LegionnairE]

^Quantum Well IR technology is the only damn diffference between second and third generations of FLIRs. I don't care much about the frequencies, human body emits heat so does most of the military hardware any FLIR should be able to pick up those signatures. But resolution is damn important and it's a necessity to keep camera sizes at a level.

Although SAR is a much greater help for big scale operations but you always need FLIRs' scapel-like percision. It should be the same for satellites yet i still think SARs are more important because they are immune to bad weather conditions. For a surveillance satellite that's a great thing.

 

[TheCommander]

Guys, have you seen this? It is pretty impressive. Any of you knows if we work on a similar project like this one for our UAVs?

1.8 gigapixel ARGUS-IS. World's highest resolution video surveillance platform

 

[LegionnairE]

@TheCommander there are lots of experimental projects in this area. But all wide-area persistent surveillance systems or WAPS', are essentially the same. A very big day camera or lots of small day cams mounted on a UAV.

There's nothing special about them. You just have to make room for the extra optical payload, it can be done in a heartbeat.

 

[TheCommander]

@LegionnairE

It might look like easy and not seem special but I think it is not that simple. The engineer simply explains what ARGUS-IS is and how it functions. To me it is so important especially its 7/24 high resolution service. I am not saying we cannot do this but it requires some technological skill to make it. It would be awesome to see this technology in our UAVs.