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Akinci & Aksungur and Turkish Unmanned Fighter Aircraft Program

Using ukranien engine from a joint venture by baykar meaning low cost. Bayraktar tb-2 very costeffective price/performance vehicle also I'm thinking akıncı of course more costly vehicle than bayraktar but he will be costeffective when compared his same level ucavs. His cost will be nothing much when compared his weapon carry performance and strategical strike capabilities whit hgk-kgk and som also aa capabilities with bvr and radar.

But baykar can gain much more money if him achieve to make low cost semi or fully stealth aa capable mius, just because they have not so much rival in his level and his capabilities will be superb when compared his costs.
İf baykar support this roadmap with awacs,ew,air refuel uav's baykar will be in top 5 uav makers in 10 years.

Baykar or any other companies must export their product. Otherwise, producing for the domestic market is not as cost-effective as it assumed. @SgtGungHo mentioned that most probably, Ukraine will get some AKINCI as part of the engine deal. But that engine option will open new markets for us.
 
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That's kinda worrisome. There is huge differences between a 220hp, a 450hp and a 750hp engine. Plus, Tei PD220 is probably not a Turboprop engine, but only a diesel aircraft engine if they are structurally the same as PD170. Plus, the 220ph engine will greatly compromise the max. take-off weight of Turkish UAV in development. However, it seems like even lesser UCAVs are enough against infantries and amoured vehicles in Syria.

Why worrisome?
Sure the engine powers will influence directly the take-off weight. It's a trade off depending on how to use the UAV.
The 220HP engined version will be a sensor UAV, no weapons load
The 450HP engined version will have weapons load and
The 750HP engined version will have a mix of sensor (radar) + weapons load

They will have the same body structure but not the same configurations.
 
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TB2 nor Anka-S is not on par with Reaper in terms of capability. I do not question whether Turkey will operate MQ-9 Reaper-tier drones in the future, but at the moment they don't have any. That's the point. The war in Syria was a rare opportunity that Reaper being tested against a Russian air-defense system operated by Russian Army as Turkey had tried to buy Reaper in the past.
I have never claimed that Anka-s and TB2 are comparable with Reaper
My point is that if turkish UAVs who belong to light category can take on russian air defense systems then certainly Reaper could do it so I guess you already have the answer on your question(MQ-9 vs Pantsir,Buk...etc)
Turkey doesn’t have Reaper never had actually even though tried to buy but Congress due to political reasons sabotaged the deal
There were three MQ-1 Predators rented under so called joint turkish-american control in reality the UAV was operated by americans while turks watched from monitors flights
due to some unknown(conspiracy theory) reasons all 3 Predators crashed(same destiny happened to israeli made heron) and now there’s no foreign origin UAVs on turkish soil
Today Turkey is self sufficient in UAVs with three different UAV companies
Akinci is at the same league of Reaper my opinion is that in some specific things definitely surpasses Reaper
 
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In tanks we have developed our own tank "Altay" tank, that will go into production and is delayed due to corruption in dealing with a company that has close relations with the government. But soon or later the tank will be produced anyway.
Dude, what does Baykar Makina have to do with any of this? The Altay program has been delayed due to nepotism and that's a fact. Otokar was ready and able to produce them years ago until the government decided to hand the contract to BMC who doesn't have the capabilities to produce them. Alternative engines such as the IVECO 1600hp existed and were available for purchase years ago. The production has been delayed at least two years because BMC has zero experience with not only the Altay but tracked vehicles in general.
It's like beating a deadhorse at this point as this topic has been discussed many times over but Altay project was not delayed due to corruption. That is all rhetoric that is of political origin (sad to say, our political level is pretty low. Attacking the character rather than discussing the issue at hand). The Altay projects on what, how and why it happened is all clear. By claiming corruption, we are actually accusing so many people at SSB, army, etc. that don't deserve it (onlarin gunahina giriyoruz).

The acceptance tests for Altay was passed in february of 2017. Somewhere between february and november of 2017, Otokar and SSB failed to come to an agreement. After SSB rejected Otokar's offers, it resulted in an open tender that included Otokar, FNSS and BMC in november 2017. February of 2018 all companies gave their best and final offers, april of 2018 the tender concluded with BMC winning it. BMC won the tender due to them being the lowest bidder at 3.5 million. While the next lowest contender was at the 6 or 7 million ranges.
BMC winning the tender has nothing to do with favoritism or corruption. If you analyze BMC's corporate strategy it makes sense as to why and how they are able and willing to outbid their competitors: BMC are looking to grow aggressively and by selling 49% of its corporate shares to Qatar, it has the capital to take on more risk as opposed to their direct competitors who do not have this advantage. I think they also rely on being able to supply Qatar once they win these tenders giving them a faster Return on Investment as compared to its competitors who do not have these advantages either. In other words, Qatari capital being involved gives assurences to BMC selling its goods to Qatar making it worth to outbid their competitors. BMC also has engine projects ongoing, once these projects are done, their yield per tank will increase. All these add up and it decreases the risk involved with the tank for BMC giving them the posibility and advantages to outbid their opponents. This allows BMC to take on short term loss by outbidding competitors in tenders, as these losses are an investment for the future (increasing brand name and market share). BMC are also looking to expand outside of the defence industry, they makes buses and truck as we all know, but they also want to make trains and metro's as well (one of the main reasons for the Karasu plant) and they are also involved with the electric car project. Their goal is employing 10.000 (currently at 3000+) people and creating a turnover of 5 billion by 2023 and the steps they are taking seem to be in line with these goals. All this indicates that they want to grow and are acting accordingly. By reverse enginering BMC's steps and looking up their goals/statements, you can sort of guess their strategy and how they have positioned themselves within the market.

Then there were some other problems like the engine, which has nothing to do with Otokar or BMC. And delays for various other reasons. Delays in these types of projects are the nature of the business, it would be a miracle almost for big projects like these to not suffer any delays. Yes it is frustrating but have faith in those that are at the helm of these projects (SSB, etc.). They know what they are doing and have proven so time and time again with all sorts of various projects and the information in this forum is a testament to that. If corruption was an actual issue in our industry, our industry would not have been able to come this far and still plan new projects for the future working towards a vision of 80%+ (among which all strategic components) domestic production. It is all going to plan eventhough there may be delays here and there, they aren't strafing out too much of the roadmap.

Back in 2007, when Otokar won the tender for Altay, they did not have any experience with tracked vehicles either. FNSS was the one with the experience yet Altay was given to Otokar. So SSB knew things that we didn't and it worked out really well. FNSS, Otokar, BMC, these are all strategic companies to us (hepsinede sahip cikmamiz lazim).
 
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The Altay project was a prestigious project by the govt but not a strategic one hence it has been placed on the last of the pile. It will not change the balance of power
However, the strategic projects are Aviation projects and missiles, radars and warships and turkey needs to spend wisely due to current geo-tension with other powers.
 
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It's like beating a deadhorse at this point as this topic has been discussed many times over but Altay project was not delayed due to corruption. That is all rhetoric that is of political origin (sad to say, our political level is pretty low. Attacking the character rather than discussing the issue at hand). The Altay projects on what, how and why it happened is all clear. By claiming corruption, we are actually accusing so many people at SSB, army, etc. that don't deserve it (onlarin gunahina giriyoruz).

The acceptance tests for Altay was passed in february of 2017. Somewhere between february and november of 2017, Otokar and SSB failed to come to an agreement. After SSB rejected Otokar's offers, it resulted in an open tender that included Otokar, FNSS and BMC in november 2017. February of 2018 all companies gave their best and final offers, april of 2018 the tender concluded with BMC winning it. BMC won the tender due to them being the lowest bidder at 3.5 million. While the next lowest contender was at the 6 or 7 million ranges.
BMC winning the tender has nothing to do with favoritism or corruption. If you analyze BMC's corporate strategy it makes sense as to why and how they are able and willing to outbid their competitors: BMC are looking to grow aggressively and by selling 49% of its corporate shares to Qatar, it has the capital to take on more risk as opposed to their direct competitors who do not have this advantage. I think they also rely on being able to supply Qatar once they win these tenders giving them a faster Return on Investment as compared to its competitors who do not have these advantages either. In other words, Qatari capital being involved gives assurences to BMC selling its goods to Qatar making it worth to outbid their competitors. BMC also has engine projects ongoing, once these projects are done, their yield per tank will increase. All these add up and it decreases the risk involved with the tank for BMC giving them the posibility and advantages to outbid their opponents. This allows BMC to take on short term loss by outbidding competitors in tenders, as these losses are an investment for the future (increasing brand name and market share). BMC are also looking to expand outside of the defence industry, they makes buses and truck as we all know, but they also want to make trains and metro's as well (one of the main reasons for the Karasu plant) and they are also involved with the electric car project. Their goal is employing 10.000 (currently at 3000+) people and creating a turnover of 5 billion by 2023 and the steps they are taking seem to be in line with these goals. All this indicates that they want to grow and are acting accordingly. By reverse enginering BMC's steps and looking up their goals/statements, you can sort of guess their strategy and how they have positioned themselves within the market.

Then there were some other problems like the engine, which has nothing to do with Otokar or BMC. And delays for various other reasons. Delays in these types of projects are the nature of the business, it would be a miracle almost for big projects like these to not suffer any delays. Yes it is frustrating but have faith in those that are at the helm of these projects (SSB, etc.). They know what they are doing and have proven so time and time again with all sorts of various projects and the information in this forum is a testament to that. If corruption was an actual issue in our industry, our industry would not have been able to come this far and still plan new projects for the future working towards a vision of 80%+ (among which all strategic components) domestic production. It is all going to plan eventhough there may be delays here and there, they aren't strafing out too much of the roadmap.

Back in 2007, when Otokar won the tender for Altay, they did not have any experience with tracked vehicles either. FNSS was the one with the experience yet Altay was given to Otokar. So SSB knew things that we didn't and it worked out really well. FNSS, Otokar, BMC, these are all strategic companies to us (hepsinede sahip cikmamiz lazim).

That's the same tune parroted over and over again with no any evidence about whatever participant offered.
There is a law in Turkey for transparency of tenders (ihale kanunu seffafligi) and every citizen is supposed to be able to ask for documents of that tender to the tender commission (İhale Komisyonu Başkanlıgi) through EKAP (Elektronik Kamu Alimlari Platformu).

Well I challenge you all to get the info about the serial tank production tender if you can!
You won't get any answer (which is your right according to law). Come back if you manage, I challenge you whole heartedly.

So don't come and parrot the same old BS that the best second one offered a price in the 6-7 billion range that Ethem told in an interview.

Why do we have laws if it is not implemented, and why is it not implemented if there is no corruption involved?
Serial production of the Altay tank is $15mln a piece which is the most expensive tank in the world, it's not only outrageous, it's a big case of national plundering!
 
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That's the same tune parroted over and over again with no any evidence about whatever participant offered.
There is a law in Turkey for transparency of tenders (ihale kanunu seffafligi) and every citizen is supposed to be able to ask for documents of that tender to the tender commission (İhale Komisyonu Başkanlıgi) through EKAP (Elektronik Kamu Alimlari Platformu).

Well I challenge you all to get the info about the serial tank production tender if you can!
You won't get any answer (which is your right according to law). Come back if you manage, I challenge you whole heartedly.

So don't come and parrot the same old BS that the best second one offered a price in the 6-7 billion range that Ethem told in an interview.

Why do we have laws if it is not implemented, and why is it not implemented if there is no corruption involved?
Serial production of the Altay tank is $15mln a piece which is the most expensive tank in the world, it's not only outrageous, it's a big case of national plundering!
We'll be in the same position even if otokar was awarded the contract. And then we would hear other conspiracies like how govt is dragging its feet of not commencing production because of corruptions. The real deal is that Turkey has to spend the funds wisely so its balance of power is in its favour in current climate and tank production ain't going to produce miracles considering the biggest victims of recent wars are none other than tanks.
Turkey will produce altay but only when every thing is in place like engine and armour. Theres no rush so lets stop the nonsense conspiracy corruption theory here
 
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We'll be in the same position even if otokar was awarded the contract. And then we would hear other conspiracies like how govt is dragging its feet of not commencing production because of corruptions. The real deal is that Turkey has to spend the funds wisely so its balance of power is in its favour in current climate and tank production ain't going to produce miracles considering the biggest victims of recent wars are none other than tanks.
Turkey will produce altay but only when every thing is in place like engine and armour. Theres no rush so lets stop the nonsense conspiracy corruption theory here

If there is no corruption everyone should be able to get info from the tender commission, no one, not even journalist could obtain any info on the tender (which is a right to be get, ihale seffafligi kanunu). It's not about Otokar or FNSS to get the tender, it's the process of hiding!
 
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I am curious, TB2 is succesful, but why does it seem like Bayraktar isn't developing it further ?

IMO it's stupid not to develop it further and have a TB3 which is not only ground control able but has satellite link. This would ensure longer operational range. I was hoping they'd develop it to 200+ km range.
 
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I am curious, TB2 is succesful, but why does it seem like Bayraktar isn't developing it further ?

IMO it's stupid not to develop it further and have a TB3 which is not only ground control able but has satellite link. This would ensure longer operational range. I was hoping they'd develop it to 200+ km range.
Current TB2 can't developed more with it's current body... This is it's limit...
It's advantage was always the price anyway... A ''much better'' TB2 is the AKINCI.
 
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Current TB2 can't developed more with it's current body... This is it's limit...
It's advantage was always the price anyway... A ''much better'' TB2 is the AKINCI.
He has a different mentality :crazy::cheesy:
 
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I am curious, TB2 is succesful, but why does it seem like Bayraktar isn't developing it further ?

IMO it's stupid not to develop it further and have a TB3 which is not only ground control able but has satellite link. This would ensure longer operational range. I was hoping they'd develop it to 200+ km range.

I guess they could have enlarged the TB2 and dropped a turboprop into it to, like Israelis have done with Heron TP and US Reaper. But Baykar seems to want to be progressive so they've moved on to a new design, Akinci..
 
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I am curious, TB2 is succesful, but why does it seem like Bayraktar isn't developing it further ?

IMO it's stupid not to develop it further and have a TB3 which is not only ground control able but has satellite link. This would ensure longer operational range. I was hoping they'd develop it to 200+ km range.

Bayraktar TB2 was born as a tactical level UAV platform with lower requirements. One step further means ANKA, then AKSUNGUR and last step, for now, is AKINCI. From ANKA changes all start with Satcom, more payload, domestic FLIR system and so on.
 
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