Aircraft carrier Liaoning vs Vikramaditya

[BigDaddyWatch]

Serial production of the WS-10A only started in 2010. So it has been in production for only 3 years. There are still issue's with the WS-10A at this point and is not yet reliable enough for single engine planes like the J-10.

As for the Vikaramdity vs Liaoning comparison read my post #196.

 

[ice bomb]

Then its appalling you still do not understand so much of Chinese military since you visited CDF. Read and visit those website does not equal you fully understand Chinese military depth enough.

So true, as your post demonstrate.

For example you claim J-20 is still lacking behind Russian PAFKA in design.

An exact quote will be nice. Be sure to read it properly first.

That's a laughable statement. Didn't you realise China rejected PAFKA participation when they saw what Russian is going to design?

What does rejecting a project got to do with the ability to build a superior platform? How will the chinese know which one is superior when they dont possess the final aircraft? Until J-20 come up in a fight against T-50, we will never know.

J-20 flush airframe is far more suit for the requirement of reduced radar cross section more than PAFKA.

I guess you dont know that VLO is not about how it appears to your naked eyes. J-20, F-22 , T-50 all are based on compromises. Comparisons based on how they look at outside is plain silly and ignores some of the most basic concepts behind VLO. It is about the whole aircraft, not just about certain part of the aircraft.

Then J-20 deploy large number of 3D printing for its part and some of it is the most advance in the world. I think I do not need to point out the advantage of 3D printing... As for PAFKA, I hardly know it deploy such technique in making its airframe.

3D printing is just a tool like computer. How you utilizes it is what separates the tier one from tier two airforces.

 

[anonymus]

I assume you were born after Operation Dessert Storm then. This is not about China vs Vietnam or US. Let us get back to topic.

China has too much territory to retreat and too many man to hold a Gun. It is more like Russia. No army could hold ground in china.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Our adversary is PLAN and PN and we can get tactically close with both,
Sure, I will take your words for it.
if someone has to worry about getting close to USN its china.I gave that link asan example of the difficulty of intercepting modern supersonic ascms that manuevre not to troll USN.
Difficulty is not the same as not having a countermeasure.
As for never blinking,then what was the alarm over the ss-n-22 sunburn?Or over this current klub.
The only alarm is clueless journalists with no knowledge what so ever. Just read your own media. There are enough clueless one there as well, why should it be different for the US? Reading your sentences, one will wonder that you have never heard about agencies who play up the threat as to justify more foundings, I mean, really?
China's latest anti ship missile by the way is supersonic in most part of its flight,not subsonic.Harpoon and exocet are no longer as competitive ,that is why usa and EU developing LRASM and perseus .

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-...iaoning-vs-vikramaditya-30.html#ixzz2aM87fEh8

China has both supersonic and subsonic missiles. It dosnt means they prefer one over the another.
No idea what you mean by they are not as competitive. You may look up the numbers sold as well as the new versions.
Just because they are developing new missiles, dosnt means Harpoon are obsolete.

1.What do u really have that can prevent IN doing so ?And forget PN,they are totally at the mercy of IN.
2.When did i say nobody has countermeasures,just that its not easy even with them.First you 'difficulty' then talking about countermeasure.
3.Right those weren't US navy officials voicing their concern..they were all clueless journalists.
4.'Relatively' obsolete.When compared to the newer systems coming out both exocet and harpoon are dated,thats why both are palnned to be replaced.

 

[BoQ77]

China has too much territory to retreat and too many man to hold a Gun. It is more like Russia. No army could hold ground in china.

China has so many enemies ( as they created ) around their territory.
So they feel still not arm enough to protect themselve, even domestic issue, as in Urumqi, Tibet
In Vietnam opinion, almost any external act of China has the origin from internal issue.

Frontier act, fight then retreat 1962, 1969, 1979 never go deep inside because they worried about other enemies could take advantage of their weakness when focus on a particular enemy.

The aggressive acts of China make the whole world bonded together, India and Russia, India and US, Vietnam and Japan, Korea, US; US and ASEAN, Vietnam and India.

As a matter of fact, India and Russia together making Brahmos, Vikramaditya, ... China illegal finishing themselve the Liaoning,
India, Vietnam get legal purchased aircrafts, submarines, get license of building warships... China must cloning their aircraft, SAM, ... Simply because Russia say No to transfer sensitive weapon to China,

Now India get aircrafts, weapon from US. For Vietnam after the meeting 24-26 Jul 2013 between Vietnam president and Mr. Obama for US choosing the main partner in ASEAN, Vietnam soon after is able to get barring lifted and official has weapons from US like advanced missile, coast guard, some P3 Orion with arms
Vietnam now already get some old navy ships from Korea and improve for coast guard force.
As in another topic here, Vietnam get loan of 100 mil from India to purchase 4 more patrol ships.
If Vietnam maritime police disintegrate from navy, Japan would give at least 10 coast guard ships to Vietnam like did it to Phillipine this month.

I think Chinese should start to worry about that

 

[ice bomb]

1.What do u really have that can prevent IN doing so ?And forget PN,they are totally at the mercy of IN.

What shipborn AWACs do you possess to find chinese/PN ships at sea? What is the range of IFF? How you gonna engage hostile ships with your missiles? Which ship? Which aircraft?What makes you confident that you can engange your enemy first and not the other way around? Also check my post # 413. Those are the known countermeasures IF you manage to do all the above mentioned things.

2.When did i say nobody has countermeasures,just that its not easy even with them.First you 'difficulty' then talking about countermeasure.

If we agree that defending against supersonic missiles dont relies on alien tech, that supersonic missiles has been there since the 60s, then we can move on.

3.Right those weren't US navy officials voicing their concern..they were all clueless journalists.

If you dont know the difference between voicing their "concern" as to get more foundings and have no countermeasures, then I rest my case.

4.'Relatively' obsolete.When compared to the newer systems coming out both exocet and harpoon are dated,thats why both are palnned to be replaced.

Is that why your own navy spend nearly 400 million dollars to acquire them? I will judge the abilities of the missiles on the purchase of professional navies, not some fanboys words.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Is that why your own navy spend nearly 400 million dollars to acquire them? I will judge the abilities of the missiles on the purchase of professional navies, not some fanboys words.

1.Does PN or china possess any shipborne awacs?Both IN and PLAN have ka-31 helix so nobody can claim advantage.Also i never said that we WILL get first look,i said that we can get within range easily..which is true because PLAN doesn't possess any great shipborne AWACS either.
Moreover if the case is a PLAN battle group attempting to force its way into the IOR through malacca.we will get first look as our maritime patrol P-8is and even awacs based in andaman.Plus there are satellites,IN is about to launch its own satellite.
Diesel subs lying in wait can also detect and engage a battle group with sub launched klubs or exocet.
As for which ship-talwar and shivaliks can employ brahmos or klubs.As can rajput class.Delhi class and kukhri class can engage with kh-35s in closer ranges.
From underwater kilos,akulas and scorpenes can use klubs and exocets plus torpedoes.
As for aircraft from the air p-8i poseidons with harpoons and tu-142 and su-30mki with ALCM brahmos.

4.Harpoon is the only available AShM with p-8I,its not like we have a choice.And its not that its ineffective at all,just less so than newer ones.

 

[ice bomb]

1.Does PN or china possess any shipborne awacs?Both IN and PLAN have ka-31 helix so nobody can claim advantage.Also i never said that we WILL get first look,i said that we can get within range easily..which is true because PLAN doesn't possess any great shipborne AWACS either.

Then both sides are blind. Or at the same disadvantages using helos instead of fixed-wings. What makes you think it is easy to get within range then?

Moreover if the case is a PLAN battle group attempting to force its way into the IOR through malacca.we will get first look as our maritime patrol P-8is and even awacs based in andaman.Plus there are satellites,IN is about to launch its own satellite.

And if it happends other way around?

Diesel subs lying in wait can also detect and engage a battle group with sub launched klubs or exocet.

IN isnt the only navy with subs.

As for which ship-talwar and shivaliks can employ brahmos or klubs.As can rajput class.Delhi class and kukhri class can engage with kh-35s in closer ranges.

You are still living in ww2 if you think your ships will be able to get close enough to fire those missiles...We dont live in a battle ship age any more. Read about Falkland war.

From underwater kilos,akulas and scorpenes can use klubs and exocets plus torpedoes.

Again, you are not the only navy with subs. Not mention scorpene isnt been delivered for another 3 years and Akula is a training ship.

As for aircraft from the air p-8i poseidons with harpoons and tu-142 and su-30mki with ALCM brahmos.

LOL, Tu-142 is from the 60s and MKIs dont have brahmos. Come back when you do.

4.Harpoon is the only available AShM with p-8I,its not like we have a choice.And its not that its ineffective at all,just less so than newer ones.

You mean your navy didnt consider the weapons when they bought the platform? YOu got be kidding me. I am sure they know alot better than you, son.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

You mean your navy didnt consider the weapons when they bought the platform? YOu got be kidding me. I am sure they know alot better than you, son.

1.Whats ur point?How can they even engage in combat unless they are in range of their weapons systems?Are u saying one side has some incremental advantage like a supercarrier that can engage beyond the distance of anti ship missiles?[250-300km]Both are in the same boat in this case.Usually they will be in range of each other to fire their missiles.
2.Ask urself what is more likely?A PLAN battle group attempting to enter IOR in force or an IN battlegroup attempting same in SCS.IN doesn't have ability to match PLAN in SCS.Its foolish.Also ur gonna have to come to the malacca area if u wanna save ur oil tankers,we don't have to go to SCS to protect our oil supply.
3.True,but u can only bring ur noisier nuke subs to the IOR as they only have the endurance to operate so far from home ases without detection.While we can bring our diesel subs in from our closer shores.
4.Right....hundreds of naval ships all around the wold carry anti ship missiles for show.PLAN ships carry anti ship missiles for show..If u were the us navy with supercarriers carrying shipborne awacs and a huge force of strike fighters u might have had a point.U don't have supercarriers.
5.Akula is a training shipThats why we are ordering a second one with brahmos VLS.Thats why we have buy option after 10 yrs lease.The only thing akula is forbidden to do is carry nuclear weapons/cruise missiles.
6.Tu-142 is old,and still rocking.China itself use even more old and useless badger.As for mki test coming very soon,don't worry.Its not like PLAN has a force right now to enter IOR.
7.Son,we did consider it.P-8I primary function is ASW,secondary is anti shipping role.P-8I was chosen because of its ultra new sensors and detection equipment particularly gainst subs in the vast indian ocean and easy availability of spares.Harpoon is a satisfactory missile that can do the job,though not as great as klub/brahmos.Integration might be done later,once air launched version is fully developed/provided cost of integrating russian tech with us tech is not prohibitive in relative to results and OEM[original equipment manufacturer]agreed to such tampering when deal was signed.

 

[Penguin]

McEachron, J. F. (1997), Subsonic and Supersonic Antiship Missiles: An Effectiveness and Utility Comparison. Naval Engineers Journal, 109: 57–73. doi: 10.1111/j.1559-3584.1997.tb01931.x

James F. McEachronis currently the McDonnell Douglas Aerospace (MDA) test and evaluation process team leader for the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile Program. During his 16 years of experience an missile systems product definition, he has served as the operations analysis manager for the Harpoon Program, conducted force structure analysis/strategic planning for MDAs Washington Studies and Analysis Group, and performed survivability and effectiveness analyses for the SRAM II Program. Mr. McEachron holds a B.S. degree in aerospace engineering from Georgia Institute of Ethnology.



Subsonic and Supersonic Antiship Missiles: An Effectiveness and Utility Comparison - McEachron - 2009 - Naval Engineers Journal - Wiley Online Library


RO China (a.k.a. Taiwan): Hsiung Feng III - Brave Wind III is a new supersonic (Mach 2 - 2.5) ramjet ship-to-ship missile currently in development by CIST. The missile's maximum speed at low altitudes is reported to be in the range of Mach 2.0-2.3, with higher cruising speed at greater altitudes.

France could fairly easily mate the warhead and guidance pack of the latest Exocet with the mach 2-3 Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) missile.

The maximum speed of China's YJ-12 is around Mach 4. YJ-12 AShM is the only family of YJ-12 with optional sea-skimming capability, though this is achieved at the cost of reduced range. Related: CM-400AKG Wrecker

Remainder mostly Russia (Yakhont, Club, Moskit, and a few more)

Do remember Brahmos is a Russian-Indian venture, with Russia providing the missile.

Perhaps the single-most physical manifestation of military might are the aircraft carriers, but that designation puts them in the crosshairs of missiles specifically designed to destroy them. With new enemy designs—such as sea-skimming missiles able to reach extremely quick closing speeds—advanced practice targets are required to build the carrier’s defense equipment and train sailors to use it. Among the newest is the GQM-163 As “Coyote”—a trailblazer of sorts as the first U.S. missile to successfully use the ramjet engines, now used in missiles across the U.S. military. At a reported cost of more than $500,000 a pop, Coyotes can hit Mach 2.5 and crease the waves at less than 20 ft. altitude. But as new enemy missiles fly even faster, and closer to the waves, he Navy is seeking more advanced anti-ship test beds. The cat-and-mouse game continues.

5 Superhero Kamikaze Mods for Military Target Practice (With Video) - Popular Mechanics

Pop-quiz for Brahmos fan's : If you can't engage it, why practise against it?!?

Israeli navy has begun installing Barak 8 on Saar 5 ships in direct response to Syria's growing stockpile of antiship missiles, notably Yakhont. Which should tell you 2 things: a) yes, it's a dangerous missile, but b) it can be defended against.

Israeli navy equipping warships with Indo-Israeli Barak-8 missile system: report | idrw.org
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...hips-indo-israeli-barak-8-missile-system.html

 

[ice bomb]

1.Whats ur point?How can they even engage in combat unless they are in range of their weapons systems?Are u saying one side has some incremental advantage like a supercarrier that can engage beyond the distance of anti ship missiles?[250-300km]Both are in the same boat in this case.Usually they will be in range of each other to fire their missiles.

It is hard to talk to illiterate people with no knowledge of how CVBGs work. What CVBGs will let you get within range of anti-ship missiles? Your AWACs and fighters usually stay within 200-300 kms of your carriers? wdf are you smoking, son? Btw kid, range of a missile is not the same as the range of radar. First you need to identify friend and foe. At what range can you do that? Then you need to lock on the target while defending against fighters from the opposing force. Just because a missile has certain maximum range, dosnt means you always fire missile are that range.

2.Ask urself what is more likely?A PLAN battle group attempting to enter IOR in force or an IN battlegroup attempting same in SCS.IN doesn't have ability to match PLAN in SCS.Its foolish.Also ur gonna have to come to the malacca area if u wanna save ur oil tankers,we don't have to go to SCS to protect our oil supply.

let us not get into another silly Bollywood film of PLAN entering malacca. It has been explained many times that USN is not gonna allow anyone to disrupt the trafic in malacca strait. Thus there is no need for PLAN to engange IN, ever.

3.True,but u can only bring ur noisier nuke subs to the IOR as they only have the endurance to operate so far from home ases without detection.While we can bring our diesel subs in from our closer shores.

See above post.

4.Right....hundreds of naval ships all around the wold carry anti ship missiles for show.PLAN ships carry anti ship missiles for show..If u were the us navy with supercarriers carrying shipborne awacs and a huge force of strike fighters u might have had a point.U don't have supercarriers.

Anti-ship missiles are the last line of defence, not your primary weapon as you suggested. We dont live in ww2 with ship vs ship engagement. Read about Falkland land.

5.Akula is a training shipThats why we are ordering a second one with brahmos VLS.Thats why we have buy option after 10 yrs lease.The only thing akula is forbidden to do is carry nuclear weapons/cruise missiles.

If you are forbidden to carry offensive missiles, what use is your subs?

6.Tu-142 is old,and still rocking.China itself use even more old and useless badger.As for mki test coming very soon,don't worry.Its not like PLAN has a force right now to enter IOR.

Son, if you dont know the difference between Cj-10A with 2000 km range and 300 km range Brahmos, then I cant really help you. A silly, silly comparison on your part. PLAN is patrolling IOR with regularly.son

7.Son,we did consider it.P-8I primary function is ASW,secondary is anti shipping role.P-8I was chosen because of its ultra new sensors and detection equipment particularly gainst subs in the vast indian ocean and easy availability of spares.Harpoon is a satisfactory missile that can do the job,though not as great as klub/brahmos.Integration might be done later,once air launched version is fully developed/provided cost of integrating russian tech with us tech is not prohibitive in relative to results and OEM[original equipment manufacturer]agreed to such tampering when deal was signed.

Good that we agree that IN know what they doing when they spend 400 millions on Harpoon and that we can disregard that those missiles are semi-obsolete like some fanboys claimed.
Btw you need learn to use proper quotes. It is hard to read your sentences.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

1.It is hard to talk to people who misinterpret what i am saying..what i am saying is this in a war between PLAN and IN ship to ship engagement is very viable,none have supercarriers like USN with airborne hawkeye awacs and a huge fleet of fighters that can engage enemy fleets beyond effective range of missiles.We both have meagre carrier forces not in that league.
As for identification,Enemy ships can be identified by satellite,recon plane,AEW platform/helicopter,Fighters on CAP mission,maritime patrol aircraft and shipborne phased array radar itself.Exactly ..but ur not the only ones who have shipborne fighters.Also u have completely neglected ASW which will take up a bulk of the CBG's attention too and are a even greater threat to carriers.
2.Explained only in your mind.Why do u think USA would even bother when IN takes out a tanker bringing oil from the gulf to chinese ports?USN would actually enjoy the show.Oil is legitimate war economy material.
4.Wrong,for surface ships anti ship missiles are the primary armament for surface warfare.Helicopter is the primary armament for ASW warfare.
5.Again misinterpreted my post.The akula is not allowed to carry SLBM like k-15 sagarika/k-4 or nuclear tipped cruise missiles like ss-n-21.Not conventional anti ship cruise missiles like klub.
6.You brought up platform age i answered.Tu-142 is still used by russia and is excellent for salvo fire from the air of cruise missiles.

 

[ice bomb]

1.It is hard to talk to people who misinterpret what i am saying..what i am saying is this in a war between PLAN and IN ship to ship engagement is very viable,none have supercarriers like USN with airborne hawkeye awacs and a huge fleet of fighters that can engage enemy fleets beyond effective range of missiles.We both have meagre carrier forces not in that league.

There is where your ignorance shows. You believe that you have to have supercarriers to have a credible defence against missiles. What size is french Charles de Gaulle? Size matters, but it dosnt means smaller CVs cant defend against missiles.

As for identification,Enemy ships can be identified by satellite,

Muhahhahah. Do some reading, son. Against a moving target in the middle of the ocean? 24/7? muhahha. Even USN have not the confidence to do that. IN and PLAN? muahhahaha.
Do you have any idea the number of ships sailing in the oceans on daily basis? Indian sats? muhahahhaah

recon plane,

Range? How you identify them at 300 kms range

?

AEW platform/helicopter,

What ship based AEW/helo can identify ships 300 kms away?

Fighters on CAP mission,

If your fighters can do that, what makes you think the other side can not do it? What happends if they engange you first before you can hit them? Btw you dont even have any fighter to launch Brahmos as of now. lol

maritime patrol aircraft

They are not ship based.

and shipborne phased array radar itself

Really, at what range can your APAR identify friend/foe?

.Exactly ..but ur not the only ones who have shipborne fighters.Also u have completely neglected ASW which will take up a bulk of the CBG's attention too and are a even greater threat to carriers.

None of them are ship based. Again, we are not talking about a Bollywood script where IN has all the advanges and the other part just play into their hands.

2.Explained only in your mind.Why do u think USA would even bother when IN takes out a tanker bringing oil from the gulf to chinese ports?USN would actually enjoy the show.Oil is legitimate war economy material.

Son, quite a few posters have tried to explain to you the importance of commercial traffic at sea. As well as the difficulty identify chinese tankers(most dont carry chinese flags.) Why are you still trolling? Your post shows a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding the freedom of sea as well as how commercial shipping operates. It is global, not country specific.

4.Wrong,for surface ships anti ship missiles are the primary armament for surface warfare.Helicopter is the primary armament for ASW warfare.

Carried by fighters, not ship vs ship like you suggested. Your fighters are faster than your ships. You do not send in ships to kill another ship, son. Even in ww2 carriers were launching fighters to drop bombs.

5.Again misinterpreted my post.The akula is not allowed to carry SLBM like k-15 sagarika/k-4 or nuclear tipped cruise missiles like ss-n-21.Not conventional anti ship cruise missiles like klub.

Show me one pic of Akula launched any klub. one. ANd where does it say that it can be used in a conflict against others?

6.You brought up platform age i answered.Tu-142 is still used by russia and is excellent for salvo fire from the air of cruise missiles.

A pointless comparison since those two platforms have differenct roles and capabilities.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

A pointless comparison since those two platforms have differenct roles and capabilities.

1.The point that u raised was not whether they were 'defenceless' but whether they can get close to to each other.And chances of getting close to these small carriers when both fleets have them is pretty good.
As for identification it is not seperately each system,but a combination of all these methods that are used.And modern shipborne phased array radars can pick up vessels well out to 300 kms.
Maritime patrol is another perfectly viable method.They have huge range and can easily be used from shores.As for satellites,CAP fighters and AEW they are not foolproof but viable,together all these make up very viable means of detection.
2.Again hiding behind commercial traffic skirt,face it u got no defense once chinese oil tankers from the gulf start blowing up,than to cry to big daddy usa who might condemn it but actually will enjoy the proceedings as long as they aren't hurt substantially.No damage comes to USA when a oil tanker of china from gulf is seized.You don't believe me,even in 1971 attack on karachi we blew up usa ship venus challenger that was carrying ammunition for pak.Did anything happen?Oil is legitimate war material and we will see chinese oil tankers shut down,while usa eats popcorn and cheers for us to shut down chinese bully.
4.
Ridiculous taken to the extreme by you.Carried by fighters only?What do you think hundreds of destroyers,frigates and cruisers around the world have as their primary armament?Lollipop?Each frigate and destroyers worth its salt carries 8-16 surface attack cruise missiles as its primary attack armament.With the long range cruise missiles this is not ww2 with ship to ship gun battles,son.All navies recognize this.The type of advantage ur talking about wold only exist if one side had carriers and other didn't and substantial number of fighters on that carrier to attack in wave after wave from a safe distance to overwhelm defences.Only a supercarrier has that much firepower and these days even it is reported to be sitting duck in exercises against subs.
5.There is sum total of 1 pic in the net of a klub missile launch from ANY platform,and that was from a indian navy talwar class frigate.So don't try to use it as cover,all sources have indicated indian akula carries klubs.Just no SLBMs or nuclear tipped missiles.This means we can't convert the akula to a quasi SSBN or equip it with our new SLBM k-15 or k-4 or put nuke cruise missiles on it and thats why ss-n-21 cruise missile was not sold with it.
What u think we are buying another akula class with our money and putting brahmos VLS cells on it so it can be a showpony?You think there is a buy clause after 10 yr lease for fun?Stop being cheap.
6.Agreed.

 

[Penguin]

5 Superhero Kamikaze Mods for Military Target Practice (With Video) - Popular Mechanics

Pop-quiz for Brahmos fan's : If you can't engage it, why practise against it?!?


Israeli navy has begun installing Barak 8 on Saar 5 ships in direct response to Syria's growing stockpile of antiship missiles, notably Yakhont. Which should tell you 2 things: a) yes, it's a dangerous missile, but b) it can be defended against.

Israeli navy equipping warships with Indo-Israeli Barak-8 missile system: report | idrw.org
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...hips-indo-israeli-barak-8-missile-system.html

Data for GQM-163A: Speed Mach 2.8 when sea skimming, more when high-diving (see orbital pdf below). More on Coyote supersonic target here:
[2.0] Modern US Target Drones
Orbital Sciences GQM-163 Coyote
Short-range Targets
http://www.orbital.com/NewsInfo/Publications/Coyote_Fact.pdf

Can't help but notice the similarity with Taiwan's HF 3 missile excl boosters.