Air strikes on a hospital in Kunduz were "tragic, inexcusable and possibly even criminal" : UN

[jhungary]

Well, just because the bomb was dropped by the US, the fault may not be US alone or at US at all.

From my own experience calling air strike, bombs may be dropped from the plane, but those pilot were only following orders. Obviously something have gone wrong to have the bomb drop square at the hospital, it could be the person calling out the coordinate, he may call the coordinate wrong (1 digit here and there could make quite a different) the person hearing the fire support request may heard and repeat the coordinate wrong. it may have been the grid was not updated. Or the laser-designator may be faulted, or the location was not verified or wrongly verified.

There are about 6 to 8 different people to carry out an airstrike, and any one or more of those may have make a mistake somewhere and resulting the bomb drop in a hospital. It may be one of those person fault, it may be the whole lot, or it may be just a freak accident. Don't forget, Blue and Blue could and DID happen.

lol at those who think the US bomb the hospital with intent, yeah, because, as we all know the way to end a war is to kill civilian....(I was being sarcastic)

 

[gambit]

Since the coordinates were given by the ANSF being on the ground themselves, so the blame firstly lies there.

But still, suggesting the USAF to be as clueless as the layman on the street is a lame excuse.

It is not a 'lame excuse'. You obviously do not have any experience with working with foreign militaries. Look at your first statement.

General John Campbell, Commander of US and NATO forces in Afghanistan, already stated before a Senate Committee that such requests go through, what he termed a, "rigorous" US procedure.

If so, its unthinkable how a Western charity hospital (which was probably operating for quite a while now) wasn't identified and instead pounded with precision strikes for 90 minutes.

It seems likely that this decision was rushed and procedure not applied.

General Campbell also appears to hint towards this by saying the decision to fire was a "U.S. decision made within the U.S. chain of command".

It is not 'unthinkable'. GPS coordinates do not substitute for visual identification, of which we were totally dependent upon the Afghan forces.

I will put it to you this way...

Which is the better direction, turn right on coordinates 34.101228° and -118.340874°, or turn right when you see the Chevron gas station ?

When you are in an urgent situation for information, visual cues as to where to go and what to do is usually preferable. For the AC-130 aircrew, if they are given long/lat coordinates, they have no choice but to take it on faith that those coordinates are legitimate targets -- AS QUALIFIED BY THOSE ON THE GROUND. The decision to accept those coordinates belongs to US, of course, but that does not mean we know for certain those long/lat coordinates belongs to a hospital or a recently discovered ammo cache. When you hear friendly forces requesting supporting fire, you respond. You do not query HQ for permission. You do not ask your navigator to pull out his maps and almanac to check if there is a hospital there. You do not engage the aircrew in a political/moral discussion.

If US procedures were not followed, then it is a matter of discipline and/or incompetence, but not of malice as the MSF doctors are now trying to portray the situation.

 

[r0ck]

When you hear friendly forces requesting supporting fire, you respond. You do not query HQ for permission. You do not ask your navigator to pull out his maps and almanac to check if there is a hospital there. You do not engage the aircrew in a political/moral discussion.

That's not what the General said.

He specifically stated that "even though the Afghans request that support it still has to go through a rigorous US procedure".

So there are only two scenarios, either the procedure was not followed or the procedure is not rigorous enough (i.e. fails to identify a Western settlement in a conflict region).

It is not a 'lame excuse'. You obviously do not have any experience with working with foreign militaries. Look at your first statement.

Given the Salala checkpost incident, one doesn't need to be an expert in working with foreign militaries to be sceptic about USAF/NATO deniability claims for "mistaken" airstrikes.

Though I agree that this particular incident looks to be unintentional.

 

[gambit]

That's not what the General said.

He specifically stated that "even though the Afghans request that support it still has to go through a rigorous US procedure".

So there are only two scenarios, either the procedure was not followed or the procedure is not rigorous enough (i.e. fails to identify a Western settlement in a conflict region).

The point here is that the MSF is trying to associate malice to the tragedy. Which part of the definition of 'malice' is difficult to understand ?

mal*ice

the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.

Given the Salala checkpost incident, one doesn't need to be an expert in working with foreign militaries to be sceptic about USAF/NATO deniability claims for "mistaken" airstrikes.

Then no one would want to work with US, no ?

Looky here...Just be straight with the Americans on this forum. You want to believe that we are evil. Just come out and say it. Stop beating around the proverbial bush.

 

[r0ck]

The point here is that the MSF is trying to associate malice to the tragedy. Which part of the definition of 'malice' is difficult to understand ?

mal*ice

the intention or desire to do evil; ill will..

Read my post again. The last line.

I'm agreeing that this incident looks unintentional. I'm not implying any malice. Maybe MSF is implying malice on this, but I'm not.

All I'm saying (after reading the General's statement) is that either the procedure wasn't followed or the procedure was followed but it lacked the information for the friendly installation.

But to be honest, I think you're absolutely right in saying that when friendly forces come under fire, there a response and no time for permissions or moral discussions. It might be the true cause of this incident.

Then no one would want to work with US, no ?

Not many have a choice.

Looky here...Just be straight with the Americans on this forum. You want to believe that we are evil. Just come out and say it. Stop beating around the proverbial bush.

Woah. Where did that come from? I never said Americans are evil. I never generalise people like that.

In fact, after reading through some of America's accomplishments, I have a lot of respect for the Americans.

Also, I think your reputation for being extraordinarily advanced in technology, sometimes creates a completely wrong impression.

At the end of the day, we're all human beings, some good some bad. Nobody's an angel.

 

[bdslph]

nothing will happen