AIP vs nuclear submarines

[Indian Patriot]

Is it only endurance or other factors? Given logistical constraints, for how long an SSN can be deployed before it runs out of supplies?

 

[AMDR]

Is it only endurance or other factors? Given logistical constraints, for how long an SSN can be deployed before it runs out of supplies?

90 days worth of supplies is normal for the USN SSNs, I don't know about other nations.

 

[Skull and Bones]

SSK for coastal defense, SSN for strategic offence.

 

[IND151]

It really depends on what your nations naval strategy is. For example the U.S. Navy uses an all-nuclear force because it wants to have a global presence. And since an SSN has longer endurance, VLS for cruise missiles, Intelligence gathering, special forces insertion, and higher speeds, it fits their requirements while still being very quiet (somewhat like AIP subs) because of advanced tech in noise reduction. SSs and SSKs do not. However if we look at the Russian navy they do not want to have as much as a global presence as the U.S. Navy therefore they have a mix of advanced SSKs (i.e Lada,Kilo-class) and SSNs (i.e Yasen,Akula-class, Which are still very quiet like the ones the USN has). Keep in mind that SSKs are hunter-killer subs, they can't go fast or deep so they wait silently in shallow water for their prey approach, and then ambush. I hope this answered your question.

Good Explanation..............

 

[The SC]

Air Independent Propulsion equipped diesel electric submarines offer incredibly stealthy and long diving capabilities, but they have remained somewhat diminutive in size and limited in capabilities compared to their larger nuclear counterparts. Now, renowned French naval ship builder DCNS is looking to change that with their super-sized SMX-Ocean sub concept.

The SMX-Ocean's size is telling — 328 feet long and displacing 4,750 tons while surfaced (more while submerged). That makes her roughly three times the size of the innovative AIP capable Swedish Gotland Class AIP diesel electric subs (diesel electric subs are also known as SSKs) that largely introduced the modern AIP concept as a usable form of undersea propulsion.

With greater size comes much greater capability. The SMX-Ocean is aimed directly at eliminating much of the advantages of the "SSN," the multi-role nuclear attack submarine. This is done by extrapolating the latest in AIP technologies into a larger hull design. In this larger hull there is room for traditional features that were once only found on bigger and much more expensive nuclear boats, as well as others that are on the leading edge of undersea combat.

The SMX-Ocean design, which is based loosely on the French Navy's Barracudda Class SSN, is said to offer an incredible 18,000 mile range at an average of 10 knots submerged, and the ability to patrol for 90 days without tendering or coming into port for refueling and resupply.

DCNS's latest fuel cell and lithium-ion battery based AIP technology will allow these big boats to stay submerged and near entirely silent for up to 21 days at a time. With its large internal volume, the SMX-Ocean will have enough fuel and stores on-board that it will be as adapted to 'blue water' operations (open ocean) as 'brown water' operations in the coastal littoral areas. This makes them capable of missions like carrier escort, which have traditionally been conducted by nuclear boats for navies that have the capability.

As for the SMX-Ocean's combat capabilities, they mirror or even exceed those of the most modern nuclear attack subs of a similar size, and even larger in some cases. The SMX-Ocean boats are designed to pack vertical launch tubes for land and surface attack long-range cruise missiles and even anti-aircraft missiles. This is all in addition to the standard forward firing torpedo tubes, although these too are capable of deploying anti-ship, anti-sub and even anti-air weaponry. In total, this innovative new SSK design will be able to pack an incredible amount of firepower, totaling 34 missiles, mines or torpedoes. In comparison, the Virginia Class SSNs, which are nearly double displacement, carry 39 weapons.

In addition to her bristling quiver full of missiles and torpedoes, full accommodations for a team of special forces frog men, including a lockout chamber and a 'garage' for swimmer delivery vehicles and/or a dorsally mounted midget submarines are part of the initial design.

A huge part of the SMX-Ocean concept includes the use of unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) and unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) that can range out far from the submarine's location. There they can use active and passive sensors to help build a situational picture of the battlespace, all without putting their mothership at risk.

For instance, an UUV can be forward deployed and used tactically to search for other subs or mines using active sonar, or it can pave the way for a special operations team inserting deep into enemy territory. A sub-launched UAV will be able to provide targeting information for a standoff attack on an enemy flotilla, reconnoiter a suspect smuggling ship, or conduct over-watch for a special forces raid. All this can be done while the sub itself still remains hidden, dozens of miles away from the target in question.

A deployable 'virtual mast' system is also built into SMX-Ocean design. Basically, this is a buoy system fitted with electro-optical, signals intelligence, and even radar sensors, as well as data-link communications, that can be deployed while the sub is at great depth. Such a system can be used as a traditional periscope would, to visually survey the boat's surface surroundings and target craft if need be, or it could be used for communications, building an aerial and surface radar picture, or to relay information collected by a sub-launched UAV.

This whole "virtual mast" technology is so exciting because it largely alleviates the most vulnerable situation that an attack sub regularly puts itself in- breaking the surface of the water to prosecute an attack, communicate, or to simply see what is going on around it. The traditional periscope itself creates a radar return that many sub hunting radar systems are incredibly capable at detecting, and it is often a sub hunter's best clue as to a boat's location. In addition, all these technologies, including UUVs, UAVs and virtual masts are all expendable, as they can be abandoned on command or destroyed by the enemy without a major loss of the submarine they are supporting. Simply put, it is a much better deal losing a $2M UUV instead of a $1B+ submarine, not even counting the cost in human life.

In the SMX-Ocean, DCNS really has a lower-cost diesel-electric AIP competitor for countries that already have nuclear attack subs in inventory, and a very enticing product for countries that do not have nuclear submarine capabilities but sure would love some without the cost or infrastructure hassle associated with them. Australia in particular has big subsurface ambitions, and many other nations, especially in Asia, may see fielding an SSN like SSK as the perfect tool to counter-balance China's increasing area-denial and anti-access technologies. Western nations are also dealing with a growing Russian threat, one that small quantities of extremely expensive 'blue water' SSNs may not be able to keep up with.

Really, the SMX-Ocean is most likely a vision of things to come in regards to subsurface warfare technology. As nuclear submarine technology becomes increasingly unaffordable for even the most wealthy states, their capabilities will have to be shared by cheaper diesel-electric AIP boats. Meanwhile, nuclear capabilities will be better reserved for the ballistic missile deterrent mission and for fast attack submarines operating under the polar icecap or on other extreme endurance missions.

As area denial and anti-access technologies continue to proliferate, putting allied surface vessels and aircraft at greater risk, more and more missions will be pushed onto stealthy submarine forces. In the US there is already a higher tasking demand than there is a supply of available submarines by a good margin. DCNS's new SMX-Ocean could be a solution to this pressing problem, as it is one that will only worsen as time goes on.

Is This Jumbo Diesel Electric Submarine A True Nuclear Alternative?

Are the Chinese AIP Type 041 with the same displacement of 4500 tons surfaced are this capable or close to...already?

 

[Zarvan]

Air Independent Propulsion equipped diesel electric submarines offer incredibly stealthy and long diving capabilities, but they have remained somewhat diminutive in size and limited in capabilities compared to their larger nuclear counterparts. Now, renowned French naval ship builder DCNS is looking to change that with their super-sized SMX-Ocean sub concept.

The SMX-Ocean's size is telling — 328 feet long and displacing 4,750 tons while surfaced (more while submerged). That makes her roughly three times the size of the innovative AIP capable Swedish Gotland Class AIP diesel electric subs (diesel electric subs are also known as SSKs) that largely introduced the modern AIP concept as a usable form of undersea propulsion.

With greater size comes much greater capability. The SMX-Ocean is aimed directly at eliminating much of the advantages of the "SSN," the multi-role nuclear attack submarine. This is done by extrapolating the latest in AIP technologies into a larger hull design. In this larger hull there is room for traditional features that were once only found on bigger and much more expensive nuclear boats, as well as others that are on the leading edge of undersea combat.

The SMX-Ocean design, which is based loosely on the French Navy's Barracudda Class SSN, is said to offer an incredible 18,000 mile range at an average of 10 knots submerged, and the ability to patrol for 90 days without tendering or coming into port for refueling and resupply.

DCNS's latest fuel cell and lithium-ion battery based AIP technology will allow these big boats to stay submerged and near entirely silent for up to 21 days at a time. With its large internal volume, the SMX-Ocean will have enough fuel and stores on-board that it will be as adapted to 'blue water' operations (open ocean) as 'brown water' operations in the coastal littoral areas. This makes them capable of missions like carrier escort, which have traditionally been conducted by nuclear boats for navies that have the capability.

As for the SMX-Ocean's combat capabilities, they mirror or even exceed those of the most modern nuclear attack subs of a similar size, and even larger in some cases. The SMX-Ocean boats are designed to pack vertical launch tubes for land and surface attack long-range cruise missiles and even anti-aircraft missiles. This is all in addition to the standard forward firing torpedo tubes, although these too are capable of deploying anti-ship, anti-sub and even anti-air weaponry. In total, this innovative new SSK design will be able to pack an incredible amount of firepower, totaling 34 missiles, mines or torpedoes. In comparison, the Virginia Class SSNs, which are nearly double displacement, carry 39 weapons.

In addition to her bristling quiver full of missiles and torpedoes, full accommodations for a team of special forces frog men, including a lockout chamber and a 'garage' for swimmer delivery vehicles and/or a dorsally mounted midget submarines are part of the initial design.

A huge part of the SMX-Ocean concept includes the use of unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) and unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) that can range out far from the submarine's location. There they can use active and passive sensors to help build a situational picture of the battlespace, all without putting their mothership at risk.

For instance, an UUV can be forward deployed and used tactically to search for other subs or mines using active sonar, or it can pave the way for a special operations team inserting deep into enemy territory. A sub-launched UAV will be able to provide targeting information for a standoff attack on an enemy flotilla, reconnoiter a suspect smuggling ship, or conduct over-watch for a special forces raid. All this can be done while the sub itself still remains hidden, dozens of miles away from the target in question.

A deployable 'virtual mast' system is also built into SMX-Ocean design. Basically, this is a buoy system fitted with electro-optical, signals intelligence, and even radar sensors, as well as data-link communications, that can be deployed while the sub is at great depth. Such a system can be used as a traditional periscope would, to visually survey the boat's surface surroundings and target craft if need be, or it could be used for communications, building an aerial and surface radar picture, or to relay information collected by a sub-launched UAV.

This whole "virtual mast" technology is so exciting because it largely alleviates the most vulnerable situation that an attack sub regularly puts itself in- breaking the surface of the water to prosecute an attack, communicate, or to simply see what is going on around it. The traditional periscope itself creates a radar return that many sub hunting radar systems are incredibly capable at detecting, and it is often a sub hunter's best clue as to a boat's location. In addition, all these technologies, including UUVs, UAVs and virtual masts are all expendable, as they can be abandoned on command or destroyed by the enemy without a major loss of the submarine they are supporting. Simply put, it is a much better deal losing a $2M UUV instead of a $1B+ submarine, not even counting the cost in human life.

In the SMX-Ocean, DCNS really has a lower-cost diesel-electric AIP competitor for countries that already have nuclear attack subs in inventory, and a very enticing product for countries that do not have nuclear submarine capabilities but sure would love some without the cost or infrastructure hassle associated with them. Australia in particular has big subsurface ambitions, and many other nations, especially in Asia, may see fielding an SSN like SSK as the perfect tool to counter-balance China's increasing area-denial and anti-access technologies. Western nations are also dealing with a growing Russian threat, one that small quantities of extremely expensive 'blue water' SSNs may not be able to keep up with.

Really, the SMX-Ocean is most likely a vision of things to come in regards to subsurface warfare technology. As nuclear submarine technology becomes increasingly unaffordable for even the most wealthy states, their capabilities will have to be shared by cheaper diesel-electric AIP boats. Meanwhile, nuclear capabilities will be better reserved for the ballistic missile deterrent mission and for fast attack submarines operating under the polar icecap or on other extreme endurance missions.

As area denial and anti-access technologies continue to proliferate, putting allied surface vessels and aircraft at greater risk, more and more missions will be pushed onto stealthy submarine forces. In the US there is already a higher tasking demand than there is a supply of available submarines by a good margin. DCNS's new SMX-Ocean could be a solution to this pressing problem, as it is one that will only worsen as time goes on.

Is This Jumbo Diesel Electric Submarine A True Nuclear Alternative?

Are the Chinese AIP Type 041 with the same displacement of 4500 tons surfaced are this capable or close to...already?

This will be a good submarine

 

[truthseeker2010]

Are the Chinese AIP Type 041 with the same displacement of 4500 tons surfaced are this capable or close to...already?

041 is 3600 tons, and will be no where close to this beast. But at a billion dollars a pop, you can get 2 chinese sub for a billion, so there is value for money.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Air Independent Propulsion equipped diesel electric submarines offer incredibly stealthy and long diving capabilities, but they have remained somewhat diminutive in size and limited in capabilities compared to their larger nuclear counterparts. Now, renowned French naval ship builder DCNS is looking to change that with their super-sized SMX-Ocean sub concept.

The SMX-Ocean's size is telling — 328 feet long and displacing 4,750 tons while surfaced (more while submerged). That makes her roughly three times the size of the innovative AIP capable Swedish Gotland Class AIP diesel electric subs (diesel electric subs are also known as SSKs) that largely introduced the modern AIP concept as a usable form of undersea propulsion.

With greater size comes much greater capability. The SMX-Ocean is aimed directly at eliminating much of the advantages of the "SSN," the multi-role nuclear attack submarine. This is done by extrapolating the latest in AIP technologies into a larger hull design. In this larger hull there is room for traditional features that were once only found on bigger and much more expensive nuclear boats, as well as others that are on the leading edge of undersea combat.

The SMX-Ocean design, which is based loosely on the French Navy's Barracudda Class SSN, is said to offer an incredible 18,000 mile range at an average of 10 knots submerged, and the ability to patrol for 90 days without tendering or coming into port for refueling and resupply.

DCNS's latest fuel cell and lithium-ion battery based AIP technology will allow these big boats to stay submerged and near entirely silent for up to 21 days at a time. With its large internal volume, the SMX-Ocean will have enough fuel and stores on-board that it will be as adapted to 'blue water' operations (open ocean) as 'brown water' operations in the coastal littoral areas. This makes them capable of missions like carrier escort, which have traditionally been conducted by nuclear boats for navies that have the capability.

As for the SMX-Ocean's combat capabilities, they mirror or even exceed those of the most modern nuclear attack subs of a similar size, and even larger in some cases. The SMX-Ocean boats are designed to pack vertical launch tubes for land and surface attack long-range cruise missiles and even anti-aircraft missiles. This is all in addition to the standard forward firing torpedo tubes, although these too are capable of deploying anti-ship, anti-sub and even anti-air weaponry. In total, this innovative new SSK design will be able to pack an incredible amount of firepower, totaling 34 missiles, mines or torpedoes. In comparison, the Virginia Class SSNs, which are nearly double displacement, carry 39 weapons.

In addition to her bristling quiver full of missiles and torpedoes, full accommodations for a team of special forces frog men, including a lockout chamber and a 'garage' for swimmer delivery vehicles and/or a dorsally mounted midget submarines are part of the initial design.

A huge part of the SMX-Ocean concept includes the use of unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) and unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) that can range out far from the submarine's location. There they can use active and passive sensors to help build a situational picture of the battlespace, all without putting their mothership at risk.

For instance, an UUV can be forward deployed and used tactically to search for other subs or mines using active sonar, or it can pave the way for a special operations team inserting deep into enemy territory. A sub-launched UAV will be able to provide targeting information for a standoff attack on an enemy flotilla, reconnoiter a suspect smuggling ship, or conduct over-watch for a special forces raid. All this can be done while the sub itself still remains hidden, dozens of miles away from the target in question.

A deployable 'virtual mast' system is also built into SMX-Ocean design. Basically, this is a buoy system fitted with electro-optical, signals intelligence, and even radar sensors, as well as data-link communications, that can be deployed while the sub is at great depth. Such a system can be used as a traditional periscope would, to visually survey the boat's surface surroundings and target craft if need be, or it could be used for communications, building an aerial and surface radar picture, or to relay information collected by a sub-launched UAV.

This whole "virtual mast" technology is so exciting because it largely alleviates the most vulnerable situation that an attack sub regularly puts itself in- breaking the surface of the water to prosecute an attack, communicate, or to simply see what is going on around it. The traditional periscope itself creates a radar return that many sub hunting radar systems are incredibly capable at detecting, and it is often a sub hunter's best clue as to a boat's location. In addition, all these technologies, including UUVs, UAVs and virtual masts are all expendable, as they can be abandoned on command or destroyed by the enemy without a major loss of the submarine they are supporting. Simply put, it is a much better deal losing a $2M UUV instead of a $1B+ submarine, not even counting the cost in human life.

In the SMX-Ocean, DCNS really has a lower-cost diesel-electric AIP competitor for countries that already have nuclear attack subs in inventory, and a very enticing product for countries that do not have nuclear submarine capabilities but sure would love some without the cost or infrastructure hassle associated with them. Australia in particular has big subsurface ambitions, and many other nations, especially in Asia, may see fielding an SSN like SSK as the perfect tool to counter-balance China's increasing area-denial and anti-access technologies. Western nations are also dealing with a growing Russian threat, one that small quantities of extremely expensive 'blue water' SSNs may not be able to keep up with.

Really, the SMX-Ocean is most likely a vision of things to come in regards to subsurface warfare technology. As nuclear submarine technology becomes increasingly unaffordable for even the most wealthy states, their capabilities will have to be shared by cheaper diesel-electric AIP boats. Meanwhile, nuclear capabilities will be better reserved for the ballistic missile deterrent mission and for fast attack submarines operating under the polar icecap or on other extreme endurance missions.

As area denial and anti-access technologies continue to proliferate, putting allied surface vessels and aircraft at greater risk, more and more missions will be pushed onto stealthy submarine forces. In the US there is already a higher tasking demand than there is a supply of available submarines by a good margin. DCNS's new SMX-Ocean could be a solution to this pressing problem, as it is one that will only worsen as time goes on.

Is This Jumbo Diesel Electric Submarine A True Nuclear Alternative?

Are the Chinese AIP Type 041 with the same displacement of 4500 tons surfaced are this capable or close to...already?

AS i know, French AIP technology use the same concept as nuclear, such as steam based AIP. you have to cool down the engine and basically you can be seen by thermal cameras. I believe, the best AIP system is fuel cells used in type 212 and second Japanese Stirling engine..

The French MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) system is offered by French shipyard DCNS. MESMA is available for the Agosta 90B and Scorpène-class submarines. It is essentially a modified version of their nuclear propulsion system with heat generated by ethanol and oxygen. Specifically, a conventional steam turbine power plant is powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

Each MESMA system costs around $50–60 million. As installed on the Scorpène, it requires adding an 8.3 meter (27 foot), 305 tonne hull section to the submarine, and results in a submarine able to operate for greater than 21 days underwater, depending on variables such as speed.[7][8]

An article in Undersea Warfare Magazine notes that: "although MESMA can provide higher output power than the other alternatives, its inherent efficiency is the lowest of the four AIP candidates, and its rate of oxygen consumption is correspondingly higher."[8]

Stirling cycle engines[edit]

HMS Gotland in San Diego
The Swedish shipbuilder Kockums constructed three Gotland-class submarines for the Swedish Navy that are fitted with an auxiliary Stirling engine that burns liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to drive 75 kilowatt electrical generators for either propulsion or charging batteries. The endurance of the 1,500-tonne boats is around 14 days at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h).

Kockums has also refurbished/upgraded the Swedish Västergötland class submarines with a Stirling AIP plugin section. The Södermanland and Östergötland) are in service in Sweden as the Södermanland class, and two others are in service in Singapore as the Archer class (Archer and Swordsman).

Kockums also delivered Stirling engines to Japan. New Japanese submarines will all be equipped with Stirling engines. The first submarine in the class, Sōryū, was launched on 5 December 2007 and were delivered to the navy in March 2009.

The new Swedish A26 submarine has the Stirling AIP system as its main energy source. The submerged endurance will be more than 18 days at 5 knots using AIP.

Fuel cells[edit]

Type 212 submarine with fuel cell propulsion of the German Navy in dock
Siemens has developed a 30-50 kilowatt fuel cell unit. Nine of these units are incorporated into Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG's 1,830t submarine U31, lead ship for the Type 212A class of the German Navy. The other boats of this class and HDW's AIP equipped export submarines (Dolphin class submarine, Type 209 mod and Type 214) use two 120 kW modules, also from Siemens.[9]

After the success of Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG's in its export activities, several builders developed fuel-cell auxiliary units for submarines, but as of 2008 no other shipyard has a contract for a submarine so equipped.

The AIP implemented on the S-80 class of the Spanish Navy is based on a bioethanol-processor (provided by Hynergreen from Abengoa, SA) consisting of a reaction chamber and several intermediate Coprox reactors, that transform the BioEtOH into high purity hydrogen. The output feeds a series of fuel cells from UTC Power company (which also supplied fuel cells for the Space Shuttle).

The reformator is fed with bioethanol as fuel, and oxygen (stored as a liquid in a high pressure cryogenic tank), generating hydrogen as a sub-product. The produced hydrogen and more oxygen is fed to the fuel cells.[10]

In November 2014 India developed a new fuel cell AIP system, to be tested in March 2015.[11]

Nuclear power[edit]
Main articles: Nuclear submarine and Nuclear marine propulsion
Nuclear reactors have been used since 1955 to power submarines. the first was USS Nautilus. The US, France, UK, Russia, India and China are the only countries currently operating nuclear-powered submarines. India, having successfully developed a miniaturised reactor for submarine applications, is developing Arihant-class nuclear submarines. One is undergoing sea trials and induction was expected during mid-2012.[12][13] India leased a Charlie-class nuclear-powered submarine from Russia and plans to acquire two usedAkula-class submarines for training purposes. Other developing countries have attempted to research nuclear propulsion, but with disappointing results. However, air independent propulsion is a term normally used in the context of improving the performance of conventionally propelled submarines.

As an auxiliary power supply, nuclear power falls into the normal definition of AIP. For example, a proposal to use a small 200 kilowatt reactor for auxiliary power (styled by AECL a "nuclear battery"[14]) could improve the under-ice capability of Canadian submarines.[15]

 

[The SC]

China has developed its own Stirling cycle engine and might have fuel cell technology too...