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Ahmadis in Pakistan

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Dont be stupid, we challanged and got a name for OUR religion ISLAM, now your challengin our belief go name your religion anything BUT Islam. Get the point please...


PS: Leaving for home BRB until then.
Why? Is there a copyright on the religion's name? :D Who registers that? And what constitutes as a religion? You can't even prove the existence of Allah in Islam, how do you register this name then? Why does the government of Pakistan believe in Islam as a religion without the existence of Allah even being proven.

Even if it just does, then why does it decide that you're a Muslim because of a signature on a piece of paper? Isn't that shirk, since Government is taking away Allah's job?
 
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People like me? excuse me to bust your bubble here, im an MIT graduate from the class of 2000, and have a good business running here in Pak, I pay my taxes I help people in need I help people who get screwed in accidents and people like you who hit them run away. so yeah I am making Islam bad beat me for it.

That depresses me even more!
 
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The point here is, When Christans got rid of PAGANISUM they called there religion CHRISTANITY and NOT PAGANISUM (SEE the DIFFRENCE here) then the Jews they didnt named them selves PAGAN of CHRISTANS they named them selves JEWS (SEE the POINT here?)

Then Muslims they took it from there named a religion on almost identical belifs and named its ISLAM the religion, and the people MUSLIMS not CHRISTAN and NOR JEWS

Then some guy came called him self ahmedi and a prophet and called his religion ISLAM and the follower MUSLIM...

Now you shoulld get the abvious point here.

So Ahmedies should call themselves Ahmedies and they should believe their relation with Islam is exactly alike what Islam's relation is to Chistianity or Jew.

For Ahmedies, Muslims should be like what Christians are for Muslims.

For your information ... as an independent observer ... I am estimating future exactly like that.

Ahmediyyat shall ultimately free itself from Islam and it shall emerge as another independent and successful religion.
 
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Asim are you ahmedi? I just realised that you might be, Im sorry if anything I said hurt you, I never realised this fact.

But that doesnt mean I am off with what I said. I still stand on what I said.
I'm not, I strongly believe in the freedom of all Pakistanis. If I subjugate the Ahmedis today there will be somebody else to subjugate me tomorrow.

Already you can see Europe is banning the freedom to wear the hijab, Switzerland has banned minarets, UK is forcing our Muslim women to pass through see through scanners, France has started a movement to ban the sale of Halaal food.

What goes around comes around. Before demanding freedom from others, at least learn to be a shining beacon of freedom first.

---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

That depresses me even more!
Took the words out of my mouth.
 
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Who were you to challenge 20,000 years of history of believing in Sun God, Moon God, Cow God and all that? Just like you challenged it, Ahmedis can challenge you. WITH BELIEF!

true agreed 100%!!! we challenged all those religions!

even challenged christanity,judaism,hinudism etc!!

HOWEVER MAJOR DIFFERENCE WE DIDN'T GO OUT AND CALL OURSELVES CHRISTANS,JEWS,OR HINDUS!


i totally accept ahmedis as my brother when they accept they are not MUSLIMS but AHMEDIS which is not ISLAM!!! simple all wars and problems will end but if tomorrow i stand up and call myself chrisitan meanwhile saying prophet mohammed is my last prophet & jesus was no holy soul i am sure the chrisitans will get PISSED to be polite!
 
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word Allah itself was a word used for Moon God by Middle Eastern People which is a Pagan diety, this means Islam stole this word????


what kinda 'copy rights' issue is this???? Didnt wanted to bring it in but your forced me to do so...
Hmmm that won't work either, since for Ahmedis to preach their religion, they will have to go around saying (worse case scenario) "Muslims are liars, they beliefs are all wrong, they are all Kafirs". I think secretly they might be doing this as well. That is fair, Muslims can call them liars, Ahmedis can call Muslims liars. All fair? But when Ahmedis will attack the Muslim beliefs they will slap them with blasphemy and jail them.
 
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true agreed 100%!!! we challenged all those religions!

even challenged christanity,judaism,hinudism etc!!

HOWEVER MAJOR DIFFERENCE WE DIDN'T GO OUT AND CALL OURSELVES CHRISTANS,JEWS,OR HINDUS!


i totally accept ahmedis as my brother when they accept they are not MUSLIMS but AHMEDIS which is not ISLAM!!! simple all wars and problems will end but if tomorrow i stand up and call myself chrisitan meanwhile saying prophet mohammed is my last prophet & jesus was no holy soul i am sure the chrisitans will get PISSED to be polite!
The point is you called yourself whatever you wanted to. The same way Ahmedis can call themselves whatever they wanted to.

Just imagine if you were forced to call yourself Hindu ver. 2.0. See my point?
 
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Moreover Islam is an Arabic word meaning Submission and Muslim is someone who submits. Can Muslims also have the copyright on the word "Apple"? These are words in a Language, anyone can use it.
 
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word Allah itself was a word used for Moon God by Middle Eastern People which is a Pagan diety, this means Islam stole this word????


what kinda 'copy rights' issue is this???? Didnt wanted to bring it in but your forced me to do so...

There is another historic trace of word Allah. There was an ancient god named "El". Ancient city "Babul" was actually bab-e-El i.e. "door of el".

Even in Engeal ... Hazrat Esa calls this god "Eli ... eli ... lemasabqtani".

There was another goddess named :Lillat Devi".

These "words" El and Lillat are the historic traces.

There was no Allah in bible. In bible ... name of god was "Yehwa".

This yehwa was not "Rub-ul-Alamin". That yehwa was "Khudawand Khuda Israel Ka Khuda" i.e. as per urdu translation.
 
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There is another historic trace of word Allah. There was an ancient god named "El". Ancient city "Babul" was actually bab-e-El i.e. "door of el".

Even in Engeal ... Hazrat Esa calls this god "Eli ... eli ... lemasabqtani".

There was another goddess named :Lillat Devi".

These "words" El and Lillat are the historic traces.

There was no Allah in bible. In bible ... name of god was "Yehwa".

This yehwa was not "Rub-ul-Alamin". That yehwa was "Khudawand Khuda Israel Ka Khuda" i.e. as per urdu translation.
Not going that back, Allah too is an Arabic word. We all know the word Ellah or Ellahi meaning God or "One who should be worshiped". Allah is derived from that, meaning "The God" signifying the oneness of God.

All Arabic words have derivations with the tense in which they are used.

So coming back to the point, claiming Arabic words as your personal property is wrong.
 
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Not going that back, Allah too is an Arabic word. We all know the word Ellah or Ellahi meaning God or "One who should be worshiped". Allah is derived from that, meaning "The God" signifying the oneness of God.

All Arabic words have derivations with the tense in which they are used.

So coming back to the point, claiming Arabic words as your personal property is wrong.

ok point taken let ahmedis call themselves "islamic" however once they do that all islam's rules applies to them!

so then the question arises what does ISLAM say about a MURTAD??

and not the so called people here who try to "uphold" islamic banners with hypocrisy within them!!

anyways if the ahemids love to associate themselves to islam then what does islam say for a person who diagrees to Mohammed (s.a.w) as the last prophet of islam?? cuz if you want to go to a university you have to abide by its laws right? :coffee:
 
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Grief Links Members of a Persecuted Muslim Sect

GLEN ELLYN, Ill. — The phone rang early on the morning of May 28 in Tariq Malik’s home outside Chicago, the suburban sky still night-dark. From the hour alone, Mr. Malik and his wife, Riffat Jariullah, knew something was wrong. The voice of her brother, all the way from Pakistan, told them as much with his breathless instructions.

“Go turn on the TV,” Mrs. Jariullah, 47, remembers him saying. “See what happened.”

So, still in their bed clothes, the couple switched on the Pakistani cable station, Geo. There they saw a man with a rifle firing from a minaret. It was a minaret they recognized, at a mosque in Lahore known as Dar-ul-Zakir, where so many of their friends and family members worshiped.

Mr. Malik and Mrs. Jariullah went straight to their cellphones, calling every relative in Lahore; not one answered. From the television, they heard gunfire crackling, grenades exploding, sirens, screams. The screen showed bodies streaked with blood.

At some point, Mrs. Jariullah realized she was quaking, and yet unable to take her eyes off the screen. Eight hours later, the couple’s worst fears were confirmed. An uncle, a nephew and a cousin were dead, another cousin wounded.

And when they drove from their home in Plainfield, Ill., to their mosque in Glen Ellyn, Bait-ul-Jamaay, they discovered their anguish had company. Of the 120 families who belong to the mosque, a dozen or more had lost relatives in the Lahore attacks. All told, 94 people were killed in the assaults by the Punjabi Taliban on Dar-ul-Zakir and another mosque, Bait-ul-Noor, during Friday Prayer.

The thread of grief connecting Lahore to Glen Ellyn was not some ghastly anomaly. At both ends, the afflicted Muslims were members of the Ahmadi (or Ahmadiyya) sect, which claims 10 million worshipers worldwide. Moderate and peaceful in their precepts, the Ahmadis are reviled by fundamentalist Muslims, especially in Pakistan, for their belief that their 19th-century founder, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, was the messiah predicted by the Prophet Muhammad.

“In the beginning, it was a shock, a sense of ‘How can you do this?’ ” Mr. Malik, 53, a management consultant, said this week, recalling the Lahore attacks. “Then you rewind your memories, and your feeling is, “Yes, it can happen.’ ”

Sitting beside him, Mrs. Jariullah added, “The last thing you imagine someone could do is murder someone who is praying.”

The attack, however horrific, came as no surprise. It follows nearly 40 years of escalating persecution in Pakistan against Ahmadi Muslims by both governmental and vigilante means. While extremists commit terrorist acts, the political leaders of Pakistan have tacitly allowed the violence by stigmatizing the nation’s two million Ahmadis under the law, much in the way that segregation laws in the American South created a climate amenable to lynching.

In 1974, amid riots against Ahmadis, Pakistan amended its constitution to declare the sect non-Muslim. A decade later, under the military dictatorship of Mohammad Zia ul-Haq, Parliament enacted a blasphemy law with a death penalty. The measure singled out Ahmadis for prosecution for “indirectly or directly posing as a Muslim.”

Practically speaking, the measure meant that Ahmadis could be arrested for giving the Muslim greeting of “salaam aleikum,” issuing the call to prayer from a minaret, or even calling their house of worship a mosque. Emboldened by such official decisions, Sunni extremists desecrated Ahmadi cemeteries, burned Ahmadi homes and stores, and in 2005 gunned down Ahmadi worshipers in a mosque.

Most recently, the Punjabi provincial government, led by a former prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, allowed Muslim militants to hang banners throughout Lahore calling it religiously compulsory to kill Ahmadis. Other extremists have delivered letters to Ahmadi homes announcing their intent to slay the residents.

The United Nations, the State Department, Human Rights Watch, Pakistani human-rights groups — all had been sounding the alarm about the plight of Ahmadi Muslims for years before May 28.

The unpunished atrocities of that day, then, were only the predictable outcome of decades of animosity. And the tepid response to the deaths just goes to show that Muslim lives apparently can be taken with impunity as long as the killers are other Muslims.

The mourning and outrage can be found only in Ahmadi communities in places like Glen Ellyn and mosques like Bait-ul-Jamaay. Mirza Muzaffar lost his cousin. Amer Fahim Ahmed lost his uncle. Yasser Malik lost his uncle. And that uncle, Nasir Chaudry, was apparently one of the first worshipers killed, sought out because of his stature as a retired major general in the army.

General Chaudry, his nephew recalled, thought of himself as a Pakistani patriot. He fought for the nation in three wars and carried shrapnel from one of them in his knee. Then again, as Yasser Malik added, his uncle once was invited to a Sunni mosque on Ramadan because of his military ranking, only to find out that the whole sanctuary was washed after his departure because, as an Ahmadi, he was an infidel.

So many members of Bait-ul-Jamaay had stories like that about life in Pakistan — jobs denied, college admissions withdrawn, homes vandalized, insults endured. They are now the fortunate ones, living in America, prospering as executives or engineers or doctors, not risking prison by identifying themselves as Muslim. Here, halfway around the globe, they can console one another with the traditional prayer for the dead: “Surely we belong to Allah, and to him we shall return.”

As for Tariq Malik and Riffat Jariullah, they keep returning to memories. They remember their trip to Lahore in 1986, the way Riffat’s cousin, Nasir Ahmed, brought kebabs and sweets from the market for their three daughters. They remember the way Tariq’s uncle, Ansar ul-Haq, served tea with such a formal flourish, as if they were guests in a five-star hotel.

And Mr. Malik and Mrs. Jariullah remember, too, the cellphone images taken by Ahmadi hostages the afternoon Nasir and Ansar and all the rest were killed. One video shows a boy hiding under a table, calling out the prophet’s name amid the bullets and grenades.

Now it is that image, not a brother’s phone call, that wakes Mrs. Jariullah in the quiet suburban midnight.

On Religion - Grief Connects Members of Long-Persecuted Muslim Sect - NYTimes.com
 
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anyways if the ahemids love to associate themselves to islam then what does islam say for a person who diagrees to Mohammed (s.a.w) as the last prophet of islam?? cuz if you want to go to a university you have to abide by its laws right? :coffee:

Who is the Principal of that university then...???

Ulema of mainstream Muslim? or "Khalifa-e-Waqt" of "Ahmediyah Islam"...???

Now I share the REAL thing... of why actually ulema are so concerned to not accept ahmedies as Muslim is due to the fact that then seat of Principal will have to be given to "Khalifa-e-Waqt":azn:
 
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Who is the Principal of that university then...???

Ulema of mainstream Muslim? or "Khalifa-e-Waqt" of "Ahmediyah Islam"...???

Now I share the REAL thing... of why actually ulema are so concerned to not accept ahmedies as Muslim is due to the fact that then seat of Principal will have to be given to "Khalifa-e-Waqt":azn:

WHAT???????? you completely ignored my question!

anyway look rules apply to both sides! if the ahmedis think we are murtid then they have equal rights to unleash the "punishment" for murtad! and so do the "muslims"!!!

so yes let's make islam the university here! and let's derive our rules from it! which apply to both sides!
 
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I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this:

On a related note a recent news item says that upto 50 Muslims had to renew thier faith at the hand of a Mullah as they offered prayers for one of the Ahmadis killed in the terror attacks. Offering prayers for the Ahamid not only threw them out of Islam but also invalidated thier “Nikah” or marriage contract. So the 50 persons also had to renew thier Nikah’s. Among those renewing their marriage contracts were some elderly men (I guess they did not want to be living in sin with their wives!).
 
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