Ahmadis in Pakistan

[khuramonline]

WHAT???????? you completely ignored my question!

anyway look rules apply to both sides! if the ahmedis think we are murtid then they have equal rights to unleash the "punishment" for murtad! and so do the "muslims"!!!

so yes let's make islam the university here! and let's derive our rules from it! which apply to both sides!

No .... I did not missed/ ignored your point. Actually whoever will be the Principal ... his interpretation of "Khatam" or "Murtad" will be applicable.

And ... ahmedies do not give punishment to "murtads"

 

[ice_man]

No .... I did not missed/ ignored your point. Actually whoever will be the Principal ... his interpretation of "Khatam" or "Murtad" will be applicable.

And ... ahmedies do not give punishment to "murtads"

ok brother so i said i agree let's for a MINUTE believe shias,sunnis & ahmedis are muslims! which means ISLAM is the banner they are all under!


NOW my question is what does islam say about "murtad" everyone wants to call themselves muslims then the rules of islam should apply to all it shouldbe BINDING TO ALL PARTIES!! no one can pick & choose that oh this rule applies this one doesn't hence i compared when you go to a university ALL its rules apply to EVERYONE in it! no one can make their own rules!

 

[khuramonline]

Ice Man,

I read somewhere in ahmedy book about murtad. They quoted a quranic verse. Wording of that verse was like. "Jo log eman laye aur phir ulte phir gaye .. phir eman laye aur phir ulte phir gaye ."

I think eman lane aur ulte phirne ka three times mention tha. Means two time murtad can again resort to Islam.

Even third time ulte phirne per bhi koi Punishment mentioned nahi thi os verse main.

 

[U-571]

no body comments on innocent lives being lost by US drone strikes, but some people have lots of time commenting on ahmedis!!!, ahmedis have lived in pakistan since its creation, now some ahmedis have died has started a never ending debate on it!!pakistanis including sunni, shia, etc etc die daily but death of ahmedis have led some catogery of people commenting on the prejudice, hatred and etc etc and what not, what a fcuking hypocricy, really. ooh christians when die, christians are living like hell in pakistan, when sikhs die, ooh minority rights!!, when hindus die, pakistanis become bad??

ahmedis just died like any pakistani, is it really hard to realize??

there is already a section dedicated here called "pakistan's war" people believe, pakistan is at war these days, so is it really hard to understand??? where it be talibans, indian raw or our own army who targets mosques or other worshipping places, to sensationalize this mishap is such a height of stupidity.

 

[ice_man]

Ice Man,

I read somewhere in ahmedy book about murtad. They quoted a quranic verse. Wording of that verse was like. "Jo log eman laye aur phir ulte phir gaye .. phir eman laye aur phir ulte phir gaye ."

I think eman lane aur ulte phirne ka three times mention tha. Means two time murtad can again resort to Islam.

Even third time ulte phirne per bhi koi Punishment mentioned nahi thi os verse main.

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
—Bukhari, 9:83:17



Bahá'ís in Iran, the nation of origin of the Bahá'í Faith and Iran's largest religious minority, are considered apostates by the Shi'a clergy because of their claim to a valid religious revelation subsequent to that of Muhammad. Iranian law therefore treats Bahá'ís as heretics rather than members of an independent religion, as they describe themselves. Bahá'ís have therefore been subjected to much persecution


Salman Rushdie. In 1989 the killing of that author was urged in a fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini, the ruler of Iran at the time, for the blasphemy of authoring the book The Satanic Verses.




now the problem is islamic consensus by shias & sunnis say that KILL the apostate!

so now i guess if both sides have consensus all we need to do is find a QURANIC verse because ALL parties agree to the "authenticity of quran!

 

[khuramonline]

Ice Man,,, you have presented a Hadith and a prevailing practiced. Whereas I referred you to a Quranic verse. When Quran and Hadith are in conflict then rule of Quran prevails.

Secondly ... Ahmedies do follow same rules of Islam. Only difference is the difference of interpretations.

So in that university, rules shall remain intact.... But interpretation of the Principal shall prevail.

As I told you ... this is really the REAL reason of why ulema are really concerned to accept ahmedies as Muslims. Because then seat of Principal shall really go to "Khalifa-e-Waqt".

And Ahmedies are NOT traitors in this sense. The only possibility of attaining the situation of UNITY is that "Khalifa-e-Waqt" be accepted as the Principal of the university.

So in this Correct sense, ahmedies are the UNITERS not the TRAITERS.

 

[khuramonline]

no body comments on innocent lives being lost by US drone strikes, but some people have lots of time commenting on ahmedis!!!, ahmedis have lived in pakistan since its creation, now some ahmedis have died has started a never ending debate on it!!pakistanis including sunni, shia, etc etc die daily but death of ahmedis have led some catogery of people commenting on the prejudice, hatred and etc etc and what not, what a fcuking hypocricy, really. ooh christians when die, christians are living like hell in pakistan, when sikhs die, ooh minority rights!!, when hindus die, pakistanis become bad??

ahmedis just died like any pakistani, is it really hard to realize??

there is already a section dedicated here called "pakistan's war" people believe, pakistan is at war these days, so is it really hard to understand??? where it be talibans, indian raw or our own army who targets mosques or other worshipping places, to sensationalize this mishap is such a height of stupidity.

Those are clear outside attackers. We need not to protest or condemn outsiders. Protests ya condemnations apnon se kiye jate hain.

Outsiders apni technology ka advantage lete hain aur hum be-bus hain ... iss ka reply condemnation ya protest nahi hota. Iss ka reply technology ko attain kerne ki struggle hai.

Lakin jahan apni he society ka qasoor ho ... wahan protest bhi banta hai, condemnation bhi banta hai ... aur debate bhi banta hai.

 

[apophenia]

The punishment for Apostacy is conditional. Ahmadis’ these days are generally fourth or fifth generation – and so they aren’t an apostate by defination. So the discussion about being murtad and what Islam says about Murtad is redundant and useless.

Anyways I thought we were to discuss about the Discriminatory Law against the Admadiyya Community.For me both pro Ahmadi and anti-ahmadi movements, since the 1880s till now, are political manufactured.

 

[Blueclub]

Why? Is there a copyright on the religion's name? Who registers that? And what constitutes as a religion? You can't even prove the existence of Allah in Islam, how do you register this name then? Why does the government of Pakistan believe in Islam as a religion without the existence of Allah even being proven.

Even if it just does, then why does it decide that you're a Muslim because of a signature on a piece of paper? Isn't that shirk, since Government is taking away Allah's job?

Duh! was out of mind to indulge in a discussion like this, I was better off being a silent viewer, anyways, Asim I will NEVER be able to make you agree to my point and you wont be able to do that to me to. I knew that long before I indulged in this discussion, so I quit. Hope I didnt flamed anyone.

 

[apophenia]

Ice Man,,, you have presented a Hadith and a prevailing practiced. Whereas I referred you to a Quranic verse. When Quran and Hadith are in conflict then rule of Quran prevails.

True, and there is a disparity among muslim scholars when it comes to apostasy treatment.

Secondly ... Ahmedies do follow same rules of Islam. Only difference is the difference of interpretations.

So in that university, rules shall remain intact.... But interpretation of the Principal shall prevail.

As I told you ... this is really the REAL reason of why ulema are really concerned to accept ahmedies as Muslims. Because then seat of Principal shall really go to "Khalifa-e-Waqt".

And Ahmedies are NOT traitors in this sense. The only possibility of attaining the situation of UNITY is that "Khalifa-e-Waqt" be accepted as the Principal of the university.

You are deceitfully wrong. we can debate on this but that will fall under theological discussion and we need to respect that.

So in this Correct sense, ahmedies are the UNITERS not the TRAITERS.

They are human first and everything else comes latter.

 

[Awesome]

Duh! was out of mind to indulge in a discussion like this, I was better off being a silent viewer, anyways, Asim I will NEVER be able to make you agree to my point and you wont be able to do that to me to. I knew that long before I indulged in this discussion, so I quit. Hope I didnt flamed anyone.

Your surrender unfortunately does not grant the freedom of speech to Ahmedis upon whom you force the BELIEF that they are not Muslims.

 

[Nahraf]

The punishment for Apostacy is conditional. Ahmadis’ these days are generally fourth or fifth generation – and so they aren’t an apostate by defination.

Then how come Qadianis still claim to be Muslims while following their later-day "prophet" ? Islam is clear on finality of prophethood and Qadianis have broken cardinal rule of Islam. That is why all are considered murtid (opostate). The Qadiani leadership does not declare themselves to be another religion since many ordinary Qadianis will rather convert to Islam then follow another religion. That is the dilemma for the Qadiani leadership.

 

[apophenia]

Then how come Qadianis still claim to be Muslims while following their later-day "prophet" ?

They can claim whatever they want. Making a claim and proving it are two different things.

Islam is clear on finality of prophethood and Qadianis have broken cardinal rule of Islam. That is why all are considered murtid (opostate).

Yes MGA and people who did the baith on him committed apostasy. A person who is born Ahmadi household cant be apostate by definition of the word itself.

The Qadiani leadership does not declare themselves to be another religion since many ordinary Qadianis will rather convert to Islam then follow another religion. That is the dilemma for the Qadiani leadership.

For me that's the fault of ordinary Qadianis. Anyone who can read MGA work of divine of revelation will come to know what kinda **** he was spouting. The Qadiani leader is just there to make a quick buck and nothing all.

 

[Nahraf]

Yes MGA and people who did the baith on him committed apostasy. A person who is born Ahmadi household cant be apostate by definition of the word itself.

This is not caste system where you are born and die belonging to that caste. Qadianis can give up heretical beliefs of their parents and became Muslims. Anybody who claims to be Muslim and then breaks the cardinal rule of Islam is a apostate. The Qadianis know what the Muslims beliefs are and what are their heretical beliefs. It is up to them to make a choice.

 

[apophenia]

This is not caste system where you are born and die belonging to that caste. Qadianis can give up heretical beliefs of their parents and became Muslims. Anybody who claims to be Muslim and then breaks the cardinal rule of Islam is a apostate. The Qadianis know what the Muslims beliefs are and what are their heretical beliefs. It is up to them to make a choice.

actually it is. you have no idea how hard it is to break up from the Jammat and survive. and yes choice well they have made theirs and you have made yours. end of story.