Ahmadis in Pakistan

[Dr.Evil]

Nobody is discrimating any minority in Pakistan. They are free to live and practice their religion her in Pakistan.
Mishap happens sumtimes and we just cant based everything on tht one saddening event in which sum minorities people were killed .

How can you say that ? when there is Instutionalized Discrimination enshrined in the constitution of Pakistan.

About 50 Million people have been disenfranchised to aspire for the highest position of the land i.e, Prime Minister and President.

Are those people any less Pakistani ?

Do you still think Every one is treated equally with out discrimination.

 

[Comet]

His nitpickings as per the law and the constitution are very well debated. The constitution's section declaring anyone a non-Muslim defeats logic.

I think his example was best. If Zardari declares today that Nawaz Sharif is a woman and gets that added in the constitution, then some serious questions need to be asked about our constitution not of Nawaz Sharif.

A question:

Should a constitution be based on logic or should it be based on public sentiments or both?

 

[Spring Onion]

oh is it so... sorry my friend... we are taught about Charles Darwin's theory...


anyways I wish in Islamic countries they teach Darwin's theory also saying that it is only a theory and there is no proof for it...

Did I say too much ? Because I am not a Muslim, If I said too much I am sorry...

We are not evolved from Monkeys so we dont believe in Dawins' monkey mania.

As far as teaching this theory we do have this theory mentioned in books.

 

[Dr.Evil]

We are not evolved from Monkeys so we dont believe in Dawins' monkey mania.

As far as teaching this theory we do have this theory mentioned in books.

Yes ofcourse

Human beings asman se tapak pade hain achanak.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

nope there is no problem if they don't cross the side, its already been declared in constitution. Adopt it or move out. Thats what country laws are all about.

Discriminatory laws against Ahmadis were inserted by ordinary human beings and they can be repealed by ordinary beings. And no, those of us who do not accept discriminatory laws will not stop speaking out against them and people who oppose them should not move out of Pakistan since it is the responsibility of every citizen who supports equality and fair treatment for all to campaign and raise awareness about these black laws and work to overturn them.

What discrimination? are they stopped working for them self. Are they have been rejected in education system? What exactly discrimination? They are known non-muslims, even 10s of people proved this in this forum, and which is the fact. Calling Dog a dog is not a discrimination, but when you might call him cat then Dog might see it as discrimination. Thats another issue that dog get some mental problem and start calling himself a cat. Then cats might have some issue with it

Ahmadis are prevented from calling their faith what they wish, prevented from calling themselves what they wish, and prevented from calling their places of worship what they wish - parents have to warn their children not to call themselves what their faith teaches them (Muslims, and their places of worship mosques) for fear that they will be imprisoned or lynched/attacked by bigots in the streets.

Their basic freedoms are violated here, their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit is violated here - all actions contrary to basic human decency and the Quran that declares 'no compulsion in faith' and 'equality and justice for all'.

 

[username]

I have seen that in last ten years a consensus have built up in Pakistani Muslim psyche that murtid Qadianis are out of control. Now the violence has been escalated by extremist elements. Qadianis should avoid missionary work and keep low profile in Pakistan. May be they should try to emulate what Ismailis are doing in Pakistan.

Nahraf, first of all it is an internal problem of Pakistan, I don't know much about internal problems of your country... so in my reply if I miss something you can always correct me but don't be rude...


let me start my points by saying that I DIFFER with you... why should they keep a LOW profile ? they are your citizens... you have all the obligations to protect them whatever they do within the your law... so don't say anything like somebody should keep a LOW profile...

 

[Comet]

Ok. All this hue and cry about the "Discriminatory Laws" against Ahmadi's. Please list down all of these.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have deleted the posts I thought were getting into a theological debate on whether Ahmadis are Muslims or not and over Ahmadi beliefs. That is not the subject of this thread. Whether you believe Ahmadis are Muslims or not and why is your personal matter, don't bring it on this thread.

The only references to religion allowed here are references that in any way show Islam as justifying open discrimination and denial of rights of a community.

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

Ok. All this hue and cry about the "Discriminatory Laws" against Ahmadi's. Please list down all of these.

I just did in post 155, and you should read the rest of the posts, especially those posted by EmoGirl.

 

[username]

Now you want to prohibit our right to speech here? Society changes with dialog and discourse over issues. The discriminatory treatment meted out to Ahmadi's in Pakistan is a major issue that brings shame upon Pakistan, Islam and Muslims, and Pakistanis need to discuss this, in the media, print, electronic, internet, in coffee shops, over family dinners - everywhere. Only through open dialog will those who oppose these black laws build up support for their position over time and eventually hopefully overturn them.

It is true that the Pakistani parliament endorsed a black law such as this, just as in the US there were equally black laws legalizing slavery and racial segregation - endorsement by parliament does not make such discrimination and prejudice acceptable or morally and ethically justifiable.

Just as laws condoning slavery and segregation were reprehensible, so are the laws openly discriminating against Ahmadis. Quite frankly the Supreme Court should strike down these laws as being contrary to the Constitution of Pakistan, since the Constitution of Pakistan proclaims to follow Islam, and Islam does not condone open prejudice and discrimination against any individual on the basis of their faith, race or social status, nor does it condone forcing ones views of faith on another, as Pakistan does with the Ahmadi's.

AM, you are such a revolutionary thinker... no wonder lot of Indians are there in this forum... good to have your kind of people as mods for this fourm...

keep it up dude...

anyways I would like to add my 2 cents ....

why should a country's constitution be based on some religion... I still wonder... anyways as long as it is good no worries...

some kind of missionary should be started by visionaries in all the countries to spread the knowledge about misinterpretations (be it religion, or be it social issues, be it discriminations like caste issues there should be missionaries against them) of common people in their countries ...

 

[Spring Onion]

I have deleted the posts I thought were getting into a theological debate on whether Ahmadis are Muslims or not and over Ahmadi beliefs. That is not the subject of this thread. Whether you believe Ahmadis are Muslims or not and why is your personal matter, don't bring it on this thread.

Agno its not our Personal matter. Its matter of the basic requirement for being a Muslim.

We can not in anyway let the forum spread lies about the requirement.

All this issue of qadyanis arised due to this same fact and all this complaint of qadyanis about discrimination is due to the same difference and same lies by qadyanis that they are Muslims.


Please for heaven sake this forum is not above the basic Islamic requirement why you are just bent upon trying to force us Muslims to accept qadyanis as Muslims.

We are not advocating any violence against qadyanis we are just stating the basic difference between a Muslim and a non-Muslim.




i will come back to the 'discriminatory laws' and would try to reply

The only references to religion allowed here are references that in any way show Islam as justifying open discrimination and denial of rights of a community.

l.

Islam does not allow or justify discrimination against Non-Muslims.

Now its another matter if qadyanis say that not accepting them as Muslims is discrimination then they are wrong.

 

[Comet]

OK. Here is the list of Discriminations against Ahmadi's.

1)They are prevented from calling their faith what they wish.

2) They are prevented from calling themselves what they wish.

3) They are prevented from calling their places of worship what they wish.

4) Parents have to warn their children not to call themselves what their faith teaches them (Muslims, and their places of worship mosques) for fear that they will be imprisoned or lynched/attacked by bigots in the streets.

5) Their basic freedoms are violated here
5.1 Their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit is violated here
5.2 All actions contrary to basic human decency and the Quran that declares 'no compulsion in faith' and 'equality and justice for all'.


Please add to it what deems necessary.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

@emo

If innocent civilians are hurt will its collateral damage and It doesn't take much observation to see that.

there is whole of difference b/w Collateral damage & systematic exclusion & targeting of a whole community by Government

 

[Spring Onion]

OK. Here is the list of Discriminations against Ahmadi's.

1)They are prevented from calling their faith what they wish.

2) They are prevented from calling themselves what they wish.

3) They are prevented from calling their places of worship what they wish.

They can call what they want to call but the problem is they are selling lies to the world.

Even an ignorant, uneducated Muslim knows well that for becoming a Muslim you have to accept the finality of Prophethood of Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), there is no prohphet after him.

And anyone who claims is a a kazzab and liar and he/she would be out of Islam.

Mosques are worship places for Muslims and if non-Muslims want to call their worship places as moques or masjids they can but if they are doing so just to fool the world and prove that they are Muslims then here is the difference.


OK all the qadyani members on the forum just recite the kalima tayabba or accept that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah and there is no Prophet after him. Then i will accept you as Muslims. And those who have claimed false prophethood after Muhammad (PBUH) are liars and kazzabs. Are you ready to do that?????

4) Parents have to warn their children not to call themselves what their faith teaches them (Muslims, and their places of worship mosques) for fear that they will be imprisoned or lynched/attacked by bigots in the streets.

We/I condemn these bigots for such kinds of violence and here i will support security and safety for qadyanis.

There is no precedent of killings of murdits in Islam and Quran so I do NOT support this bigotry.

5) Their basic freedoms are violated here
5.1 Their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit is violated here
5.2 All actions contrary to basic human decency and the Quran that declares 'no compulsion in faith' and 'equality and justice for all'.

Please add to it what deems necessary.

We are ok with that as Quran clearly says that there is no compulsion in faith .


Quran also clarifies who is a Muslim and who is NOT so as per Quran we are not ready to accept murdits as Muslims.


Rest NO ONE is supporting violence against qadyanis.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agno its not our Personal matter. Its matter of the basic requirement for being a Muslim.

We can not in anyway let the forum spread lies about the requirement.

All this issue of qadyanis arised due to this same fact and all this complaint of qadyanis about discrimination is due to the same difference and same lies by qadyanis that they are Muslims.


Please for heaven sake this forum is not above the basic Islamic requirement why you are just bent upon trying to force us Muslims to accept qadyanis as Muslims.

We are not advocating any violence against qadyanis we are just stating the basic difference between a Muslim and a non-Muslim.

Jana, I deleted the posts of an Ahmadi poster arguing why his faith is true and why they are Muslims - whether they are Muslims or not is a theological discussion and is not in the scope of this thread. I am not concerned about what you want to call them, but I am concerned about the State forcing them to not practice their faith as they wish to.

i will come back to the 'discriminatory laws' and would try to reply

Islam does not allow or justify discrimination against Non-Muslims.

Now its another matter if qadyanis say that not accepting them as Muslims is discrimination then they are wrong.

Yes, that is a denial of basic rights - we are forcing upon a community what WE think they should believe and how WE think they should practice their religion. How can you not see that?

Did you not read the comments by an Ahmadi mother in one of the articles she posted, on how mothers have to warn their children (children for Gods sake) to not speak a word about their faith and what they consider it to be because they might be imprisoned or lynched by a mob?

What kind of freedom is this? Do you honestly believe that this is not a denial of their rights and the majority forcing its beliefs upon them? No where in the Quran is this type of behavior, that we have subjected upon the Ahmadis, condoned. We have violated some of the most crucial instructions of the Quran of 'equality and non compulsion in religion'.

 

[Fracker]

OK. Here is the list of Discriminations against Ahmadi's.

1)They are prevented from calling their faith what they wish.

2) They are prevented from calling themselves what they wish.

3) They are prevented from calling their places of worship what they wish.

4) Parents have to warn their children not to call themselves what their faith teaches them (Muslims, and their places of worship mosques) for fear that they will be imprisoned or lynched/attacked by bigots in the streets.

5) Their basic freedoms are violated here
5.1 Their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit is violated here
5.2 All actions contrary to basic human decency and the Quran that declares 'no compulsion in faith' and 'equality and justice for all'.


Please add to it what deems necessary.

What does a TRADE MARK means? if i start a company with the name microsoft, and Bill gates go to the court and arrest me, i will call it discrimination against me? WT?

You want to be call a muslim, then be a muslim, no one will stop you, but if you want to call another faith as a Islam. Does that make sense? as i given example of "mental problem". This is clear sign of that.