AH-1Z Viper, 1000 Hellfire II Missiles approved for sale to Pakistan.

[dexter]

Thank God my avatar is saved from being ruined.

 

[Arsalan]

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Bell Helicopter a USD581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.

The contract, which was announced by the DoD on 26 August but awarded the day before, covers the manufacture and delivery of 15 Lot 12 UH-1Y Venom utility helicopters, 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, one Lot 13 UH-1Y, and 21 auxiliary fuel kits for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and government of Pakistan.

Pakistan requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters in April, and this announcement is the first official confirmation that a deal has been signed. While the notification does not say how many of the 15 helicopters have been signed for at this stage, it states that 10% (USD57.9 million) of the overall contract value covers the sale to the government of Pakistan. This suggests that this is an initial deal for the first two helicopters only, with contracts for the remaining 13 (plus spares and support) to follow.

According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018. The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".

The contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster its rotary-winged attack capabilities. As well as procuring the 15 AH-1Zs to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms, Pakistan has also evaluated the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters, which has included flying them operationally on counter-terrorism missions, and is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. On 19 August it was announced that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters,

Well my mouth watered when i read the bold part in the above report, but then i came to the part marked in red!!

ANYWAY, lets not get greedy, 15 AH-1Z are a good step forward and considering the 1000 Hellfire missiles that will come along make it that much more sweet. Will be a great boost to our operations against talis!

There was a discussion a few days back about whether Pakistan will go for the UH-1 and i was of the view that we may not/should not considering the number of Bell platforms (412s) that we already have. It will be better to get more, if required, of the same platform. However the report did interested me for a moment there

 

[Sipahi]

Pakistan mitary have great love for quality product. They use the chona AMD Russia card to oressuried the deal.

everybody wants the best thing available in the market ... so we are

 

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011.

Sir, you have worded your point of view to near perfection. Please accept my appreciation on expressing the core problem of our image in the west so succinctly.

Thank you. I am spending so much time on here, just trying to make sure people here understand what is holding Pakistan behind. Its really a marketing and reputation issue. The military and the generals do not need to get involved with the globe on diplomacy and in meetings. They need to do their job and protect the country. The civilian government is essentially the salesmen hired to do the job to sell and buy what's important for Pakistan. The nation needs to let these guys sell and buy what's needed for Pakistan. That's the ONLY style and people the West likes. People in suits and without ANY title of General or Colonel or anything.

When the Americans, or the French or the Britts hear a "General" is visiting them from Pakistan, they LITERALLY imagine, another one like Saddam Hussein and Kaddafi in uniform. And even if you close your own eyes for a minute and think about these characters, you won't have a good feeling in your own head.

Generals outside of military work being done for Pakistan, should not be on media doing political campaigns and over glorifying the military. That's not their place. I don't like Kiyani for many reasons associated to Pakistan and his tenure. But I do have respect for him in one regard, he didn't do cheap marketing by being on every TV channels, showing off "doing things for the country". The military doesn't need to announce and show in news every day that its helping the flood victims, building a road, distributing water and food and all. That's ALL part of their JOB to do. Nothing outside of it!!!!

When any US state deploy the military for flood help, etc. There is usually a headline and they show a few military Humvee's and that's it. The way we look at the military is with pure respect and honor and a part of the system that the President of the US (Democratically elected) runs. The American military power is the most across the globe. But we don't idealize our generals in civilian matters, now do our generals come on tv every day to glorify their job duties and create an image that they are somehow doing a LOT more than their job description.

Its the people in suits who are on tv. Its the people in suits who've built the economy in the US, and a system where trillions are invested by foreigners with total understanding that their money will be safe and protected.

Pakistan needs the same, people in suits (who now exist) to do these negotiations. Car Salesmen as MK puts it. Let the Banker do Bank deals, Businessmen do business deals and grow the economy and on the way, however many of them are founded to be corrupt or wrong by the Supreme Court, the system will get rid of them.

But don't destroy your country's reputation anymore by doing violent sit ins, burning flags of other countries, attacking your own parliament, verbally assaulting America and whoever you think is the mother of all evil for you, without really thinking its you again yourself!! A good marketing effort to present civilian matters nicely and professionally is needed, specially on Pakistani media.

Indian media sensors ALL negative issues about their society if you haven't noticed. Go check out Hindustan times, or IBN, or their news channels, or whatever other news source. They present a VERY colorful, modern big country image. When you read their papers, there is little to no extreme stuff you can see, little to no violence mentioned, little to no Military generals shows up in every news channel about showing off what is their job. While they have a crazy issue of religious extremism being forced upon others by the Hindu elite. But they keep these things out of the media so that the IMAGE of the COUNTRY looks modern without violence and all to others. That's inviting investment as you look "so peaceful and modern". This is good marketing and reputation building and see where India is today!!

So if everyone does their job and a civilian control is maintained, Pakistan can go forward very quickly. Reputation and Image is the KEY to build here.

 

[soldier of Putin]

AH-1Z sucks. WZ-10 and Mi-35 are better. AH-1Z only if American taxpayers pay for them. Otherwise Pakistan should not go for AH-1Z.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

US should offer free of charge

Why ? Pakistan is not that important and has also been duplicitous to US.

 

[IceCold]

Hi,

No it is not for that reason---it is for the reason that Kiyani kept his mouth shut after the OBL raid----. That fool did not realize what that would do the image of Pakistan.

The only thing he needed to speak was the truth---that this operation was done with the permission and association with Pakistan military---but he was scared of the al Qaeda---. Kiyani the coward---saved his skin to destroy the reputation of Pakistan.

Everybody from politicians to the army has done things only which suited their interests, Pakistan can go to hell. Nothing has changed except their pathetic faces as far the ruling elite is concerned. Raheel Sharif however is al together different story.

 

[RedRock]

Thank you. I am spending so much time on here, just trying to make sure people here understand what is holding Pakistan behind. Its really a marketing and reputation issue. The military and the generals do not need to get involved with the globe on diplomacy and in meetings. They need to do their job and protect the country. The civilian government is essentially the salesmen hired to do the job to sell and buy what's important for Pakistan. The nation needs to let these guys sell and buy what's needed for Pakistan. That's the ONLY style and people the West likes. People in suits and without ANY title of General or Colonel or anything.

When the Americans, or the French or the Britts hear a "General" is visiting them from Pakistan, they LITERALLY imagine, another one like Saddam Hussein and Kaddafi in uniform. And even if you close your own eyes for a minute and think about these characters, you won't have a good feeling in your own head.

Generals outside of military work being done for Pakistan, should not be on media doing political campaigns and over glorifying the military. That's not their place. I don't like Kiyani for many reasons associated to Pakistan and his tenure. But I do have respect for him in one regard, he didn't do cheap marketing by being on every TV channels, showing off "doing things for the country". The military doesn't need to announce and show in news every day that its helping the flood victims, building a road, distributing water and food and all. That's ALL part of their JOB to do. Nothing outside of it!!!!

When any US state deploy the military for flood help, etc. There is usually a headline and they show a few military Humvee's and that's it. The way we look at the military is with pure respect and honor and a part of the system that the President of the US (Democratically elected) runs. The American military power is the most across the globe. But we don't idealize our generals in civilian matters, now do our generals come on tv every day to glorify their job duties and create an image that they are somehow doing a LOT more than their job description.

Its the people in suits who are on tv. Its the people in suits who've built the economy in the US, and a system where trillions are invested by foreigners with total understanding that their money will be safe and protected.

Pakistan needs the same, people in suits (who now exist) to do these negotiations. Car Salesmen as MK puts it. Let the Banker do Bank deals, Businessmen do business deals and grow the economy and on the way, however many of them are founded to be corrupt or wrong by the Supreme Court, the system will get rid of them.

But don't destroy your country's reputation anymore by doing violent sit ins, burning flags of other countries, attacking your own parliament, verbally assaulting America and whoever you think is the mother of all evil for you, without really thinking its you again yourself!! A good marketing effort to present civilian matters nicely and professionally is needed, specially on Pakistani media.

Indian media sensors ALL negative issues about their society if you haven't noticed. Go check out Hindustan times, or IBN, or their news channels, or whatever other news source. They present a VERY colorful, modern big country image. When you read their papers, there is little to no extreme stuff you can see, little to no violence mentioned, little to no Military generals shows up in every news channel about showing off what is their job. While they have a crazy issue of religious extremism being forced upon others by the Hindu elite. But they keep these things out of the media so that the IMAGE of the COUNTRY looks modern without violence and all to others. That's inviting investment as you look "so peaceful and modern". This is good marketing and reputation building and see where India is today!!

So if everyone does their job and a civilian control is maintained, Pakistan can go forward very quickly. Reputation and Image is the KEY to build here.

Hey
just wanted to mention in-case you didn't know, our "car salesmen" as you put it, are the sort of people who lie on their CV's or get a job by knowing someone. Very few people know how to walk the talk or even talk sense. The government does not have the capacity at the moment to handle such issues. They definitely are diplomats and their likes to handle foreign issues, but when it comes to the US, well you need more seasoned and trustworthy individuals. That time will come hopefully but for now, this way seems to be working
And, hussain haqqani was also a car salesman, how did he turn out?
Regards

On topic:
Any idea what the color scheme on these beasts will be? or will it be just like it is in the pic?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hey
just wanted to mention in-case you didn't know, our "car salesmen" as you put it, are the sort of people who lie on their CV's or get a job by knowing someone. Very few people know how to walk the talk or even talk sense. The government does not have the capacity at the moment to handle such issues. They definitely are diplomats and their likes to handle foreign issues, but when it comes to the US, well you need more seasoned and trustworthy individuals. That time will come hopefully but for now, this way seems to be working
And, hussain haqqani was also a car salesman, how did he turn out?
Regards

On topic:
Any idea what the color scheme on these beasts will be? or will it be just like it is in the pic?

Hi,

Haqqani did not qualify to be loyal to Pakistan ever----. Loyalty is the first criteria.

 

[RedRock]

Hi,

Haqqani did not qualify to be loyal to Pakistan ever----. Loyalty is the first criteria.

very true..and sadly that is what is lacking in the people who rule this nation. Not all, but most.

 

[Humble Analyst]

AH-1Z sucks. WZ-10 and Mi-35 are better. AH-1Z only if American taxpayers pay for them. Otherwise Pakistan should not go for AH-1Z.

Pakistan should go or MI 28 helis and su 35 planes.

 

[Signalian]

WZ-10 comes with no strings attached, losses can be replaced easily. Its better than AH-1F in all respects. AH-1Z is a different story but sanction prone.

 

[araz]

Well my mouth watered when i read the bold part in the above report, but then i came to the part marked in red!!

ANYWAY, lets not get greedy, 15 AH-1Z are a good step forward and considering the 1000 Hellfire missiles that will come along make it that much more sweet. Will be a great boost to our operations against talis!

There was a discussion a few days back about whether Pakistan will go for the UH-1 and i was of the view that we may not/should not considering the number of Bell platforms (412s) that we already have. It will be better to get more, if required, of the same platform. However the report did interested me for a moment there

I think 15 is a good enough number for the moment. If the 1st one is delivered in 2018 we wont get them all by 2020 at least.This gives us 5 years to mature our long term prospects.
I think the more things progress in China the less and less we will depend on the west. We do have some access to technological transfer on Chinese products and in the long run this will help us in not only having a local industrial setup for various machines but local input and modifications to our circumstances. What the AH1Z does for us is to set a gold standard to work against and get the local product up to a level where we can stand up and defend ourselves without any fear.
I understand that there are more facets to national defence and security which we are woeful in but we need to start from somewhere. So all in all a good step. Obviously, there will always remain a fall back clause in case the Chinese/ Russian products are found wanting and we have money we will explore the possibility of getting more matured western technology.
Araz

AH-1Z sucks. WZ-10 and Mi-35 are better. AH-1Z only if American taxpayers pay for them. Otherwise Pakistan should not go for AH-1Z.

You need to qualify your reasons. Without reasons you have a rant not an argument and no one wants to listen to a bleating rant. So please qualify your argument as to why you think AH1Z stinks and WZ10 and MI35 are better.
Araz

Why ? Pakistan is not that important and has also been duplicitous to US.

And the US ofA has always been honest to us?????. Countries look after their national interests both US and Pakistan have done so and to say otherwise is a falacy.
Araz

Everybody from politicians to the army has done things only which suited their interests, Pakistan can go to hell. Nothing has changed except their pathetic faces as far the ruling elite is concerned. Raheel Sharif however is altogether different story.

With all due respect don't be too quick to judge. We need to be a bit cautious in assessing the situation. The real story will always get told once he is gone. Don't get me wrong but we have a tendency to put people on padestals and heights from where they can only come down So just a word of caution.
Araz

Pakistan should go or MI 28 helis and su 35 planes.

Again a one liner without any reasons. You need to qualify your statement.Please don't be HUMBLE when it comes to sharing what goes on in your mind.We are all on this forum to learn from one another.Share your knowledge.
Araz

WZ-10 comes with no strings attached, losses can be replaced easily. Its better than AH-1F in all respects. AH-1Z is a different story but sanction prone.

WZ10 definitely has its advantages. However it is currently undergoing trials and evaluations and the results are being kept fairly secret so we don't know how it has fared. Once we have a preliminary report we would be in a better position to determine our long term goals.But certainly one of its iterations could be the answer to PAA's helicopter needs.
Araz

 

[Arsalan]

I think 15 is a good enough number for the moment. If the 1st one is delivered in 2018 we wont get them all by 2020 at least.This gives us 5 years to mature our long term prospects.
I think the more things progress in China the less and less we will depend on the west. We do have some access to technological transfer on Chinese products and in the long run this will help us in not only having a local industrial setup for various machines but local input and modifications to our circumstances. What the AH1Z does for us is to set a gold standard to work against and get the local product up to a level where we can stand up and defend ourselves without any fear.
I understand that there are more facets to national defence and security which we are woeful in but we need to start from somewhere. So all in all a good step. Obviously, there will always remain a fall back clause in case the Chinese/ Russian products are found wanting and we have money we will explore the possibility of getting more matured western technology.
Araz

Completely agreed!
Go for a limited number, get them meet the urgent needs while keep working on replacement platforms. We know that three Z-10 are with PAA now. These are not here only as a gift, the Chinese sent them to us as they knew we have experience with some of the best helicopters of there time (the cobra), also we can get there birds tested in actual ongoing conflict, check at least its offensive powers if not defensive/protection package and actually contribute A LOT to improve the future version/upgrades. Also they know that PAA is potentially the first export customer so we will be really very interested in improvements and can give some valuable feedback. So yes, for now, 15 vipers will give us the much needed offensive capability, specially with the HELLFIRE missiles. In the mean time we can keep working on the Z-10 option and hopefully it will mature as per our requirements and will serve us well in the future.

 

[airmarshal]

Thank you. I am spending so much time on here, just trying to make sure people here understand what is holding Pakistan behind. Its really a marketing and reputation issue. The military and the generals do not need to get involved with the globe on diplomacy and in meetings. They need to do their job and protect the country. The civilian government is essentially the salesmen hired to do the job to sell and buy what's important for Pakistan. The nation needs to let these guys sell and buy what's needed for Pakistan. That's the ONLY style and people the West likes. People in suits and without ANY title of General or Colonel or anything.

When the Americans, or the French or the Britts hear a "General" is visiting them from Pakistan, they LITERALLY imagine, another one like Saddam Hussein and Kaddafi in uniform. And even if you close your own eyes for a minute and think about these characters, you won't have a good feeling in your own head.

Generals outside of military work being done for Pakistan, should not be on media doing political campaigns and over glorifying the military. That's not their place. I don't like Kiyani for many reasons associated to Pakistan and his tenure. But I do have respect for him in one regard, he didn't do cheap marketing by being on every TV channels, showing off "doing things for the country". The military doesn't need to announce and show in news every day that its helping the flood victims, building a road, distributing water and food and all. That's ALL part of their JOB to do. Nothing outside of it!!!!

When any US state deploy the military for flood help, etc. There is usually a headline and they show a few military Humvee's and that's it. The way we look at the military is with pure respect and honor and a part of the system that the President of the US (Democratically elected) runs. The American military power is the most across the globe. But we don't idealize our generals in civilian matters, now do our generals come on tv every day to glorify their job duties and create an image that they are somehow doing a LOT more than their job description.

Its the people in suits who are on tv. Its the people in suits who've built the economy in the US, and a system where trillions are invested by foreigners with total understanding that their money will be safe and protected.

Pakistan needs the same, people in suits (who now exist) to do these negotiations. Car Salesmen as MK puts it. Let the Banker do Bank deals, Businessmen do business deals and grow the economy and on the way, however many of them are founded to be corrupt or wrong by the Supreme Court, the system will get rid of them.

But don't destroy your country's reputation anymore by doing violent sit ins, burning flags of other countries, attacking your own parliament, verbally assaulting America and whoever you think is the mother of all evil for you, without really thinking its you again yourself!! A good marketing effort to present civilian matters nicely and professionally is needed, specially on Pakistani media.

Indian media sensors ALL negative issues about their society if you haven't noticed. Go check out Hindustan times, or IBN, or their news channels, or whatever other news source. They present a VERY colorful, modern big country image. When you read their papers, there is little to no extreme stuff you can see, little to no violence mentioned, little to no Military generals shows up in every news channel about showing off what is their job. While they have a crazy issue of religious extremism being forced upon others by the Hindu elite. But they keep these things out of the media so that the IMAGE of the COUNTRY looks modern without violence and all to others. That's inviting investment as you look "so peaceful and modern". This is good marketing and reputation building and see where India is today!!

So if everyone does their job and a civilian control is maintained, Pakistan can go forward very quickly. Reputation and Image is the KEY to build here.

My dear. Your post is totally detached from reality.

The reality is Pakistani 'elected' leaders are not sales men of the country. They are commission agents for their political, personal and family interests. Thus a space is created which should rightfully belong to politicians but taken over by Army.

This is happening right now. Decisions that should have been made by Sharif govt are being made by Shareef the general. Shareef the general goes to Russia or Britain, he gets a state level guard of honor. Sharif the PM, when he goes abroad justs sneaks in and out of the country.

Right now Army Chief is the most popular person in Pakistan. You know why? He is taking decisions that Pakistan needs. Sharif the PM, meanwhile thinking of ways to make more money out of privatizing and ue his position of PM to expand his business.

When APC in Peshawar was attacked, Sharif the PM went into hiding. He did not make a public statement nor visited Peshawar immediately. When Karachi was struck with heat wave, not a single politician except Imran visited Karachi. But in all this, you will see army all over the place helping the affected.

These are crises which prove the mettle of leadership. Pakistani politicians have everything in them except leadership.

Pakistan can only go forward when politicians take their rightful position. Until then, military will keep taking decisions and people will keep supporting them.