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Afghanistan: Defeated America & Pakistan

Actually, RAW is pathetically incompetent. They couldn't even train LTTE well enough to destabilize Sri Lanka. And India has failed spectacularly in Afghanistan in the past, which is why the pro-Pakistan Taliban defeated the pro-Indian Northern Alliance.


so many wrong informations in a single argument...

1. the pro-Pakistan Taliban defeated the pro-Indian Northern Alliance. :: when taliban defeted northern alliance... at that time even northern alliance was a group of muzahids who used to get support from pakistan during soviet war... when taliban defeated them pakistan made the talibs friends.. and after 9/11 pakistan was actively involved in defeating taliban.... what such behavior is called... BACK-STABBING comes to my mind.

2. Actually, RAW is pathetically incompetent :: they did a fairly good job in 71... and your peoples are only saying that behind balochistan uprise there is hand of RAW... if this is called incompetancy then we are happy with incompetent RAW.. we dont want highly competent ISI..:cheers::cheers::cheers:
 
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Interesting analyze but in my opinion very superficial. I will go throw and point out why.

Thanks for putting your thoughts in PDF and let me address your words point by point.

First thing, your understanding of Afghan situation as an American is proven failure. So its good time that you as an American listen more and understand what you don't.

Not really, 9/11 changed the world, today its deferent environment what will happen if US leaves it will boast the moral of Jahadist, they will claim they have defeated yet another super power. What is the grantee they will NOT try to impose their will on a much weaker Pakistani state?

Your own words are admitting defeat in Afghanistan and rather you are frightening of dire consequences of the aftermaths. So the change that America had tried to bring to the world is not practically sustainable by the world-powers. Secretary of United State have admitted there are moderate Taliban with whom her Government can talk. Does that explain something? Yes America is ready to compromise a lot and will have to accept what was unacceptable before. So the change that you are talking of has changed yet again.

In short term it will, but in long term any Pakhtun centric government in Afghanistan will look at India as strategic partner, that is if nationalism takes a hold in Taliban.

Actually Alice in wonderland has its last chapter already written.

You mean Taliban run Afghanistan, yes it will not only to America but the whole world and region, including China, Russia, Iran and India. The question is what will these countries do in response to this threat? will they set idyll and allow Taliban take over? Once the America leaves the nationalist forces will not stay with Taliban, what will these nationalist Pashtons do if they gain the support of India, Russia and Iran?

Other than India, American exit suits Russia and China as well as Pakistan and Iran. So the only helping hand India is already doing its best to support America in Afghanistan and how much it is helping is already on the table. Every other country of the region including Pakistan would want to see a stable Afghanistan but when "dog" is out of the well, only then the cleansing procedure would begin. We know it is going to take time to make things better in Afghanistan but the Cancer must be taken out before expecting improvements.

You need to realize that no gov can touch a nation unless her people allows it. You might call the nationalist in Balochistan as terrorist and what not but the fact is majority of Baloch sees them as freedom fighters. In 60+ years 3 times Balochs have rebelled, this should tell you that there are grievances and if you want to resolve these issues then you MUST address these grievances.

Baluchistan has issues, we accept that but these are the bull$hit Americans who are allowing India to operate and beef up this insurgency. We need American dirty hand out first and Indian elements will eradicate itself. Again, when dog is still in the well, we don't expect water to be pure.

Most Afghans hates Taliban as much as most Pakistanis do. No sane person would want to live under Taliban rule. Now by imposing Taliban on Afghanistan, pakistani gov will gain the aversion of afghan people. In term of economy taliban have no plan or agenda, infect I’m sure they don't even know what economy is. Before 9/11 trade between Afghanistan and Pakistan was under $100 million. In 2008 the trade or should I say the Pakistan export to Afghanistan for the trade is very asymmetric, consisting for the most part by imports from Pakistan, as compared to very little formal Afghan exports has raise over $1 billion.

Correction, we hate TTP that is independent of Afghan Talibans. Most of our countrymen do not feel threatened by the Afghan Taliban and we have our connections with them. Afghanistan is land-locked and it is populated by Sunni Pashtoons. If Afghanistan needs to trade with the world, Pakistan is the answer for their survival. Regarding other economic matters, thats only a small portion of bigger picture and even if it does not improve, our other gains will be substantial.

There will not be peace on western border, Taliban don't know peace, and even if we accept that Taliban enjoy Pakhtun majority support what is the grantee the Pakhtun of FATA or NFWP won't demand the same Islamic Sharia? For even the pro-pakistan Pakistani Taliban have their allegiance to Mullah Omar.

Sharia is not an issue. Pakistan Government has accepted it for the Vally of Sawat and we can do it again if asked. Sharia is Islamic Law and that wont hurt Muslims. Mullah Omer is not hostile towards Pakistan, neither Gulbadeen Hikmatyar or Jallal-udin-Haqqani and the clan is. We are not DEAD as you are trying to suggest if Taliban take over yet again, which nevertheless they would. Pakistan's security doesn't come after American security.. rather we are safer when Americans are kicked out of Afghanistan because this will end the Indian Honey Moon of Afghanistan at the same time.

I don't think America will close their eyes on the threat to their country and peoples safety. Unlike our politician the American politician do care for life and safety of their people.
Over all, what we need to understand is Afghan nationalism is actually Pakhtun nationalism, it's Afghan Pakhtun that demands creation of Pakhtunistan not the Afghan Persian. What is the grantee ones Pakhtun Taliban takes over Kabul and establishes their hold they will not demand Pakhutnistan? Or all Pakistan for ideologically they don’t see any border between Muslim.

Again, an American brain is working. No offense but you and most of the western countries have been deluded to an unprecedented levels.. since you have tried everything you could, its time when you can start reading chapters from our book. It wont suit you as you might imagine but it depicts reality. America is the problem in Afghanistan, Not Taliban or Alqaeda. These are your absurd policies that have created Havoc in Pakistan and these are your drones that are creating problems for Pakistan. When I say the "dog" must be taken out of Afghanistan, understand what is meaning of "dog" in Indian Subcontinent.
 
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Yawn....And Afghans Say Pak is there's.

Sure, we don't feel threatened with these words. Pakistan and Afghanistan have been living border less states and you will find millions of Afghans in Pakistan who are living and working since decades. Afghanistan belongs to Pakistan and Pakistan belongs to Afghanistan. We are brother countries.
 
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Hello guys,

I want to engage you for your opinion if defeated America is in the favor of Pakistan or not. In my opinion, America and NATO's forthcoming defeat is beneficial to the country in many ways.

1 - With America being lost and gone, we will have pre 9/11 status of Afghanistan back which was in the favor of Pakistan every way.
2 - Indian activities and elements will be cleansed, or atleast cleansed from the areas that concern Pakistan the most.
3 - Afghanistan will remain a threat to Americans and inspite of their escape from it, they will depend heavily on Pakistan for their matters concerning Afghanistan.
4 - Our FATA and Baluchistan issues will resolve a lot sooner than they will do now. Terrorist hideouts will be eliminated and their supplies will be cut a great deal.
5 - In terms of Business and infrastructure, Pakistan will have a lot to offer to Afghans and our economy and trade will boost.
6 - With peace on Western Borders, we could focus our energies on the eastern borders to counter India.
7 - American influence from the region will get reduced and even for that sake, they will depend more on Pakistan/India and we will have better control of them than now.

In my opinion, this American defeat is more favorable to the country than its presence. I am unable to find 1 good reason to see America being successful in Afghanistan. What do you guys say?

Most importantly, Pakistan would have better people to rule, than present day 'Sellers' !

PERIOD!
 
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Laugh and be happy. Let me know when you get sober and I will show you how blind you have been.

Enjoy life in your Indian media-induced hallucination bubble.
Feel free to rejoin the real world when you feel strong enough to face reality.

us Pakistanis

Sure thing, uh huh.
What is it with cowardly Indians hiding behind other countries' flags?

when taliban defeted northern alliance... at that time even northern alliance was a group of muzahids who used to get support from pakistan during soviet war... when taliban defeated them pakistan made the talibs friends..

Wrong. You must get your 'information' from Indian media.
Pakistan was supporting the Taliban long before they were victorious. The Taliban are a Pashtun movement and Pakistan has a large Pashtun population. The Northern Alliance is mostly non-Pashtuns, including some Shias, and Pakistan rebuffed them early on, partly because we suspected they were working for the Indians. This was early on in the civil war after the Soviets left.

and after 9/11 pakistan was actively involved in defeating taliban.... what such behavior is called... BACK-STABBING comes to my mind.

It's called realpolitik, and the situation is far more complex than you seem to believe. In any case, this is no different than the Indians training/funding the LTTE terrorists and then turning on them.

they did a fairly good job in 71...

1971 was a cakewalk for India due to Pakistani leaders' incompetence over several decades. Pakistan basically handed Bangladesh to India on a silver platter. Even a halfway competent spy agency could have handled that situation.

and your peoples are only saying that behind balochistan uprise there is hand of RAW...

RAW has been successful in Balochistan and with TTP only recently, after extensive training by Mossad, and under Uncle's guardianship in Afghanistan. You know, the same Israelis who had to bail out your a** in Kargil where the Indian army was floundering.

if this is called incompetancy then we are happy with incompetent RAW.. we dont want highly competent ISI..:cheers::cheers::cheers:

Mano-a-mano, the ISI has kept RAW in check for several decades, notwithstanding RAW's far deeper pockets given India's larger economy. Like I said, it is only recently, after Mossad training and US covert support that RAW has been able to achieve its aims with BLA and TTP.
 
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Hello guys,

I want to engage you for your opinion if defeated America is in the favor of Pakistan or not. In my opinion, America and NATO's forthcoming defeat is beneficial to the country in many ways.

1 - With America being lost and gone, we will have pre 9/11 status of Afghanistan back which was in the favor of Pakistan every way.
2 - Indian activities and elements will be cleansed, or atleast cleansed
from the areas that concern Pakistan the most.
3 - Afghanistan will remain a threat to Americans and inspite of their escape from it, they will depend heavily on Pakistan for their matters concerning Afghanistan.
4 - Our FATA and Baluchistan issues will resolve a lot sooner than they will do now. Terrorist hideouts will be eliminated and their supplies will be cut a great deal.
5 - In terms of Business and infrastructure, Pakistan will have a lot to offer to Afghans and our economy and trade will boost.
6 - With peace on Western Borders, we could focus our energies on the eastern borders to counter India.
7 - American influence from the region will get reduced and even for that sake, they will depend more on Pakistan/India and we will have better control of them than now.

In my opinion, this American defeat is more favorable to the country than its presence. I am unable to find 1 good reason to see America being successful in Afghanistan. What do you guys say?


Not only above also our streets will keep flourishing with Herion and all sorts of drugs
More guns will be brought in cities
people will be slaughtered like in the past in the name of religion and sect
We will have hostile no go areas around cities infact may be at one point our transporters might have to pay a afghan tax to enter major cities.
This time talibans are more likely to take over as afghanistan will give them the strategic dept they need.
Etc Etc
 
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I say if the US leaves afghanistan they know whose gona come in to fill the gap .
I think Alqaida should be US prime obj rather than the Talibans . America can negotiate what it wants with taliban but they will have to accept their bidding if they want to compleetely seperate Taliban from Alqaida .
 
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Not only above also our streets will keep flourishing with Herion and all sorts of drugs
More guns will be brought in cities
people will be slaughtered like in the past in the name of religion and sect
We will have hostile no go areas around cities infact may be at one point our transporters might have to pay a afghan tax to enter major cities.
This time talibans are more likely to take over as afghanistan will give them the strategic dept they need.
Etc Etc

Agree with all that, unfortunately.

The question is: what is worse for Pakistan, Taliban or US?
Or, put another way, which situation can we handle better?
 
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There are advantages but there are disadvantages also . I think its better that america stays in afghanistan and fights for the next ten years and during thhat timespan let CHINA and RUSSIA emerge as major global powers .
 
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Yes that simple understanding that Taliban and Alqaida are two independent organizations and American can possibly counter Alqaida but not Taliban will open up new opportunities for everybody. BUT we are expecting from an American brain and they have lost their ability to comprehend the situation in Afghanistan.

Anyway, I agree there is a possibility that Taliban might develop some fractions similar to TTP that might want to extend their influence in the Pashtoon Areas of Pakistan, But that being known, we can develop strategy to counter that as well. After all Taliban have been hurt by Pakistan (Government, not people) and we would have to compensate for that.. but that will surely take this region towards Peace and Prosperity or at least that will be a step towards that. American presence in this area is nothing more than a Cancer and the sooner we get rid of them, the earlier we can start healing processes.
 
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The question is: what is worse for Pakistan, Taliban or US?

I think its the untamed-taliban . America cant do anything to us quite openly with half a world away from its own territory ..
 
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Agree with all that, unfortunately.

The question is: what is worse for Pakistan, Taliban or US?
Or, put another way, which situation can we handle better?


strangely with Taliban in Afghan gov there was peace in northern Pakistan most of the places except few minor issues al was incontrol where as southern Pakistan was a hell , now its vice a versa :confused:

Anyhow above just came to mind not sure if its relevant , however coming to the point :: the choice is simply ours to cut the whole argument in short ,question Pakistanis have to ask themselves what do we want !? either we want economically viable state ? or we would like to go back to stone ages and accept this hijacked version of Islam introduced and funded by foriegnors!?
 
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Anyway, I agree there is a possibility that Taliban might develop some fractions similar to TTP that might want to extend their influence in the Pashtoon Areas of Pakistan, But that being known, we can develop strategy to counter that as well. After all Taliban have been hurt by Pakistan (Government, not people) and we would have to compensate for that..

The problem is that the Iranians also feel threatened by the Taliban's Sunni extremism. A Taliban government in Afghanistan will push India and Iran closer, like in the 90s. This would be a disaster for Pakistan.

We must improve our relationship with Iran. Iran (and Turkey) are far more vital to our national interests than sucking up to the Arabs. We need to steer a middle path between the Arabs and the Persians/Turks. We need to avoid both the Sunni extremistis and Shia extremists.

I think its the untamed-taliban . America cant do anything to us quite openly with half a world away from its own territory ..

The concern is not Americans doing wrong, but Indians and pro-India Afghans. We cannot afford to have ten years of Indian trained TTP killing our people, then running away, rearming and returning from safe havens in Afghanistan. And, rest assured, as long as US remains in Afghanistan, they will allow India to do their ditry tricks from there.
 
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The thing is, on one hand it's good that USA leaves because Pashtuns of Afghanistan want them out as soon as possible. Not only because Pashtuns in Afghanistan are losing lives daily, but it breaks their heart to see their fellow Pashtuns in NWFP lose lives daily as well. Pashtuns think USA is here to destroy Pashtuns and that's the reason daily they oppose the Americans to leave Pashtuns in both Afghanistan and Pakistan alone. No matter how Taliban was, at least Pashtuns weren't dying daily and nor did they have to worry what happens to Pashtuns on other side of the borders. Before if Afghanistan was troubled then they could seek support in NWFP, and the other way round same thing happened. But now both Afghanistan and NWFP are troubled and both are doomed.

But then if USA leaves then along with Taliban, Al Qaeda, Mujahideen, Northern Alliance and God knows who else will come to Afghanistan to fight their war. In Herat already Iranian weapons are found which was planned to be used against American troops in Afghanistan, and this proves that after USA Iran will once again play their games on Afghanistan. Iran doesn't give a damn about what happens to Afghans because it was a Pashtun from Multan who was the founder of today's Afghanistan and won back Herat from Iran. Therefore Iran will surely try to meddle with Herat and meddling with Herat will mean asking for troubles from Pashtuns. And I guess it's now very clear that instability of Afghanistan is no good for Pakistan so it's best for both countries to think about their long-term benefit, not what only happens right now. So once again the question is; Do you support NATO or Taliban?
 
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The thing is, on one hand it's good that USA leaves because Pashtuns of Afghanistan want them out as soon as possible. Not only because Pashtuns in Afghanistan are losing lives daily, but it breaks their heart to see their fellow Pashtuns in NWFP lose lives daily as well. Pashtuns think USA is here to destroy Pashtuns and that's the reason daily they oppose the Americans to leave Pashtuns in both Afghanistan and Pakistan alone. No matter how Taliban was, at least Pashtuns weren't dying daily and nor did they have to worry what happens to Pashtuns on other side of the borders. Before if Afghanistan was troubled then they could seek support in NWFP, and the other way round same thing happened. But now both Afghanistan and NWFP are troubled and both are doomed.

But then if USA leaves then along with Taliban, Al Qaeda, Mujahideen, Northern Alliance and God knows who else will come to Afghanistan to fight their war. In Herat already Iranian weapons are found which was planned to be used against American troops in Afghanistan, and this proves that after USA Iran will once again play their games on Afghanistan. Iran doesn't give a damn about what happens to Afghans because it was a Pashtun from Multan who was the founder of today's Afghanistan and won back Herat from Iran. Therefore Iran will surely try to meddle with Herat and meddling with Herat will mean asking for troubles from Pashtuns. And I guess it's now very clear that instability of Afghanistan is no good for Pakistan so it's best for both countries to think about their long-term benefit, not what only happens right now. So once again the question is; Do you support NATO or Taliban?

Mashallah, an Afghan brother is here in the forum to describe what most of us know not. Thank you and Welcome to the forum.

Regarding your point of view, I see you have used the term "Pashtun" quite a few times and that suggests how you take this American war on Afghanistan. Surely its the Pashtun thats suffering in either case but its not primarily meant to be against Pashtun Ethnicity. America has Imperialistic plans and is looking to setup a new world-order with its presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. America d@m cares about civil causalities, drug trafficking or life of Afghans/Pakistanis, regardless of ethnicity and religion.

My point of view is in fact the second layer of same concern as you have. Sure, we need to save every single life whether that is of Pashtun or Non-Pashtun but we also need to keep the biitch out of this region and for that cause, Pashtuns and Non-Pashtuns are together.

Some say Afghan Taliban could be a threat to the stability of Pakistan and my answer to them is that they wont be if we respect their rights and do not interfere in the matters beyond limits. We have betrayed them and we owe them a sincere apology and we can be supporting arm of each other yet again. BUT America is a Cancer, even if you decide to stay with it, you will only end up dieing. Our Afghan brothers might be angry but they are still our brothers but Americans are Devils. The sooner we kick them out of this whole region, the sooner we could start the healing processes. No wonder 80% of the Pakistanis take America more of their enemy than India ever was.
 
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