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Afghan Taliban capture Pakistani soldiers in cross border attack

Once you said, mostly terrorist are illiterate, and then you say Madrassahs are producing terrorist. What a contradiction..

Madrassahs are labeled for producing the terrorists this isn't the case! not for today neither it was yesterday. When CIA choose this belt as a platform to launch attacks on Soviets, they created milita training camps around (not madrassahs), which used to train mujahideens and then sent to Afghanistan, in the name of Jihad.

now today, all the known training camps are finished, but only secret training camps are alive. which gets funding to higher poor/jobless/illiterate tribs man for this purpose. Then why Madrassahs are blamed?


because our LORDS (Western countries) propagate soo...

I was merely answering HIS question, it was he who had pointed out that religious institutions are producing terrorists and I was telling him regarding steps taken by the Govt to stop madrassahs from producing terrorists.
 
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Mr.Irfan,,, Even The Allah Has allowed a Strategic Fall back,,, In Surah Infaal,,, Where Allah has told the believers how to distribute War booty among themselves,,, He also told that Depending upon the war situation,,, You can Fall Back,,, But Fall back should not be confused with Surrender,,, As in the same verse,,, Surrender is strongly rejected and Allah said that who ever surrender in the Hands Of Kuffar,,, will be Punished severely

Thank you for nice post

And thanks for distinguishing between surrender & a retreat.
I am only talking about repeated "surprises" suffered by the forces at the hands of Taliban
As if they come out of nowhere
I would really like to know how the TTP manages to maneuver hundreds to sometimes thousands out of their holes to a well ditched in and armed posts time and time again

I must mention Kashmir sector again
On many occasions in the past Indians tried to launch surprise attacks on remote Pakistani posts to kill or capture Pakistani soldiers then take their bodies on the Indian side and they display them to their media saying they killed Pakistanis who tried to cross the LoC
They managed that when there were no open hostilities (by the way talking way back a decade or more)
They succeeded in few occasions but then suffered very heavy losses when we were ready and our posts repelled from companies to even battalions and after suffering heavy losses that included senior officers the Indians were not that enthusiastic to launch such adventurous attacks.

What I am pointing out here is the fact that it was almost a size of a company in that post which has a lot of fire power with machineguns, 12.7s, mortars, RPGs submachine guns and rifles. They lay mines around the posts, have barbed wires and round the clock sentry duties that sound the alarm if they see anything suspicious.

Just leaves me wondering how hundreds of Taliban manage to bypass all this and yet surprise us with our pants down. My cousin, during is posting at the front said that they were calling in cobras even when they saw a cart moving. I wonder if these carts have some cloaking technology now that escapes our Ops, our drones and sentries.

May Allah Bless our defenders with courage, determination and victory against the enemies of Pakistan & Islam
Amen
 
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Thank you for nice post

And thanks for distinguishing between surrender & a retreat.
I am only talking about repeated "surprises" suffered by the forces at the hands of Taliban
As if they come out of nowhere
I would really like to know how the TTP manages to maneuver hundreds to sometimes thousands out of their holes to a well ditched in and armed posts time and time again

I must mention Kashmir sector again
On many occasions in the past Indians tried to launch surprise attacks on remote Pakistani posts to kill or capture Pakistani soldiers then take their bodies on the Indian side and they display them to their media saying they killed Pakistanis who tried to cross the LoC
They managed that when there were no open hostilities (by the way talking way back a decade or more)
They succeeded in few occasions but then suffered very heavy losses when we were ready and our posts repelled from companies to even battalions and after suffering heavy losses that included senior officers the Indians were not that enthusiastic to launch such adventurous attacks.

What I am pointing out here is the fact that it was almost a size of a company in that post which has a lot of fire power with machineguns, 12.7s, mortars, RPGs submachine guns and rifles. They lay mines around the posts, have barbed wires and round the clock sentry duties that sound the alarm if they see anything suspicious.

Just leaves me wondering how hundreds of Taliban manage to bypass all this and yet surprise us with our pants down. My cousin, during is posting at the front said that they were calling in cobras even when they saw a cart moving. I wonder if these carts have some cloaking technology now that escapes our Ops, our drones and sentries.

May Allah Bless our defenders with courage, determination and victory against the enemies of Pakistan & Islam
Amen

Sir, the Colonel you mentioned, who surrendered to the Taliban, he was later court-martialed, but that's not the point, the point is that in the pre-operation times, duty in the F.C used to be a treat, superseded officers were sent to finish their duty there. But believe me sir, the F.C is now composed of some of the best officers of PA, you will find it impossible to find instances of surrender in the last two years, retreat, possibly but never surrender.
Just to give you an example, our commandant, of Bajaur Scouts was once travelling with us to visit a post, we saw a Talib fighter on the road and decided that there were 4 of us and only one Talib so we should arrest him rather than killing him. The commandant walked over to him and the insolent Talib looked him in the eye, the commandant slapped him and asked what he was doing there, suddenly it seemed as if a hundred guns cocked and we looked up to see that we were surrounded by Taliban, there were over 70 of them, the one on the road was now smirking and surprisingly, the commandant slapped him once again and asked him again what he was doing there as if walking into an ambush had had no effect on him at all. He was visibly shocked and told him that they were protecting "Amir sahab", he asked him where their Amir was and he took him to a nearby shop where their local commander was having pus removed from an infected finger nail, the commander was making hissing noises with pain to which the commandant commented "Oye Kiya Khazay ki tarha awazain nikal raha hai, Mard hai kay aurat"
"Why are you making noises like a wife, are you a man or a woman"(Pushto expression)
The Amir was shocked at this and became utterly speechless, the commandant asked how many men you got here ? "about 80" he replied. "Call them in" said the commandant and the commander complied, soon the small shop was filled with talibs, the commandant motioned for us to stand outside and unhooked a grenade from his bandolier. Then he did something we never could have imagined, he started lecturing them about the Khawarij and pointed similarities between them and the Khawarij.
After a good 15 minutes of his lecture, The Amir took a bottle of "Ittar" out of his pocket and applied it to the commandant's hand to ask for forgiveness for his bodygaurd who had looked him in the eye, the commandant then proceeded to threaten them to be gone in ten minutes and we rode to our post, that way we retreated without the Taliban even knowing that we had. When I asked the commandant what he was thinking, he said that I wanted to see if they wanted to kill us, if they did, I would have them in a confined space, a grenade could kill most if not all of them, "80 to 1", that's not a bad ratio is it, he said.
 
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As for the surprises, Sir, the Pak-Afghan border is over 2252Km long, both nations are separated by the Western Mountains for much of the distance, making it exceptionally hard to patrol. The Taliban can easily travel between the two nations and carry supplies on mules, their simplicity is their most deadly tactic. We cannot patrol the entire border, sometimes they manage to pass us undetected but most of the times they are intercepted. You will notice that lately, the size of the bombs the terrorists use has been getting smaller every time, I can only attribute this to the Security Force's success in cutting off the en supply lines. They are now cornered, desperate and short on supplies.
 
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Sir, the Colonel you mentioned, who surrendered to the Taliban, he was later court-martialed, but that's not the point, the point is that in the pre-operation times, duty in the F.C used to be a treat, superseded officers were sent to finish their duty there. But believe me sir, the F.C is now composed of some of the best officers of PA, you will find it impossible to find instances of surrender in the last two years, retreat, possibly but never surrender.
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you hit the nail there. I despise those officers who trim their moustaches and are more keen on chappal kebab and dum Pukht than the duties at hand. And have embarrassed us from time to time.

not sure if FC postings were for superseded officers because one of my relatives got posted in FC right after staff college and then commanded a unit before retiring.

the cousin I mentioned earlier is one of those who liked his food, didnt do staff college though and took early release from Army but he did his Siachin, Kashmir and Balochistan duty though unlike others he was not a carrier officer and was a bit of a rebel that’s why he spent a lot of time out of his mother unit lol.

getting off topic here but the point I am making throughout is that we cant put the blame squarely at FC. The good and bad soldiers are everywhere to be honest with you. And looking at IGFC Gen Tariq Khan. I am like wow . that’s what a general is made of. SO I agree and comfirm that FC is much more reformed fighting force.

people who have come across him know his fearsome reputation a great motivator and speaker who walks the walk as well in addition to talk the talk
please refer to the following


I would like to find out the complete facts here about what happened.
 
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I agree with your beliefs completely, however, I feel Pakistan is not ready for such a step, people hold religion very close to their hearts any such attempt will be met by severe criticism and I fear it may even lead to revolt, the religious parties will cash in on the situation and create a sort of "I told you so" atmosphere. Such an action will also help to give strength to the Talib claim that the Govt is trying to distance the people from their faith.
I believe such steps are necessary, but not possible for the foreseeable future.
But then in order to bring a change, society must be ready to expect a bit of instability and as such it cannot go worse than it is right now. I mean in the past, your military has overthrown rightfully and legally elected democratic governments. I don't advocate a coup at this stage but then there needs to be some force with which radicals who preach hatred in the common society blending in with ordinary civilians, have to be uprooted. And I don't think you have a Gendarmerie.

People take religion as you say to points beyond sensibility simply because they are being told to. Since faith is being misinterpreted by the radicals, how about you hold government appointed religious seminaries, welcome people and give the correct interpretation? Show them the benefits of a state separate from religion. I observed that Pakistanis have a high regard for Turkey in almost everything. Explain them about Turkey and reforms.

This has to be done in a controlled environment and since you say that radical parties are misusing the media and their power, you have to start somewhere. Otherwise, the cycle of nightmare will continue forever.

In order to remove over-conservatism from the society and old-fashioned perspectives, government has to take people into confidence. And now is the best time that the people of Pakistan need reassurance and warmth from a source that can guarantee them a safe, prosperous life. What other time is riper than now? :). In fact, I'd suggest you take extensive Turkish help by inviting their politico-religious figures to preach to the citizens of Pakistan in open seminars. It will work because this is the stage where people are realizing regarding how bad extremism in anything can be.

Your people are aware what has happened to their country because of extremists. Thousands of men, women and children have been painfully severed off their lives that God had gifted them. You all have to make a social initiative that would make your government take notice.
 
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But then in order to bring a change, society must be ready to expect a bit of instability and as such it cannot go worse than it is right now. I mean in the past, your military has overthrown rightfully and legally elected democratic governments. I don't advocate a coup at this stage but then there needs to be some force with which radicals who preach hatred in the common society blending in with ordinary civilians, have to be uprooted. And I don't think you have a Gendarmerie.

People take religion as you say to points beyond sensibility simply because they are being told to. Since faith is being misinterpreted by the radicals, how about you hold government appointed religious seminaries, welcome people and give the correct interpretation? Show them the benefits of a state separate from religion. I observed that Pakistanis have a high regard for Turkey in almost everything. Explain them about Turkey and reforms.

This has to be done in a controlled environment and since you say that radical parties are misusing the media and their power, you have to start somewhere. Otherwise, the cycle of nightmare will continue forever.

In order to remove over-conservatism from the society and old-fashioned perspectives, government has to take people into confidence. And now is the best time that the people of Pakistan need reassurance and warmth from a source that can guarantee them a safe, prosperous life. What other time is riper than now? :). In fact, I'd suggest you take extensive Turkish help by inviting their politico-religious figures to preach to the citizens of Pakistan in open seminars. It will work because this is the stage where people are realizing regarding how bad extremism in anything can be.

Your people are aware what has happened to their country because of extremists. Thousands of men, women and children have been painfully severed off their lives that God had gifted them. You all have to make a social initiative that would make your government take notice.

my friend, it is easyily said than done, the enviroment over there is something else. things can be done gradually, if they try revolution, things will get out of control, situation is bad in pakistan, no question about it, but it is not out of control.
 
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you hit the nail there. I despise those officers who trim their moustaches and are more keen on chappal kebab and dum Pukht than the duties at hand. And have embarrassed us from time to time.

Indeed Sir, such people are a disgrace to the uniform.

not sure if FC postings were for superseded officers because one of my relatives got posted in FC right after staff college and then commanded a unit before retiring.

Not necessarily for superseded officers, what I intended to imply was that it was a largely neglected force.

getting off topic here but the point I am making throughout is that we cant put the blame squarely at FC. The good and bad soldiers are everywhere to be honest with you. And looking at IGFC Gen Tariq Khan. I am like wow . that’s what a general is made of. SO I agree and comfirm that FC is much more reformed fighting force.

Indeed Sir, Maj Gen. Tariq Khan is an inspiration to his men, many feel an "excess" of loyalty towards him is because he is also one of the Khans of Waziristan, he has transformed the F.C from a demoralized force into a lethal anti-terrorist outfit, for which he will be remembered for generations.

people who have come across him know his fearsome reputation a great motivator and speaker who walks the walk as well in addition to talk the talk

Indeed Sir, he is cool under fire, very composed and at his deadliest.

I would like to find out the complete facts here about what happened.

About what Sir ? It will be my honour to fill you in on the details if I have any knowledge of the topic you wish to know about.
 
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But then in order to bring a change, society must be ready to expect a bit of instability and as such it cannot go worse than it is right now. I mean in the past, your military has overthrown rightfully and legally elected democratic governments. I don't advocate a coup at this stage but then there needs to be some force with which radicals who preach hatred in the common society blending in with ordinary civilians, have to be uprooted. And I don't think you have a Gendarmerie.

The problem is that any step to remove Religious studies will not bring a "little instability", it will start a civil war, People want their children to learn about their faith and removing RE from the school curriculum will be followed by an outcry from the people.
As for Coup d'états, you won't believe it but people actually encourage coups, we get like a couple of dozen letter from people asking the military to take power, the problem is that Civil leadership is corrupt beyond reasoning and understanding, they will continue to mercilessly direct all the state money to their account even when their nation dies of famine.
Pakistan has only seen progress during military rule(as sad as that is) so people have great respect for the military and want them to take power.

People take religion as you say to points beyond sensibility simply because they are being told to. Since faith is being misinterpreted by the radicals, how about you hold government appointed religious seminaries, welcome people and give the correct interpretation? Show them the benefits of a state separate from religion. I observed that Pakistanis have a high regard for Turkey in almost everything. Explain them about Turkey and reforms.

That is a step being taken by the military, after we free talib controlled land, we set up radio stations that broadcast music, hold talk shows, allow people to call in, talk about how they feel, allow them to request for a song of their choice, we also broadcast religious lectures from moderate religious scholars to try and counter Talib propaganda. As for talking to people about Turkey's reform, people who once lived under Talib rule will never think twice before shunning extremist ideologies however, unfortunately some Pakistanis continue to hold sympathy for the Taliban, religious parties such as Jamaat e Islami and Jamiat e Ulema e Islam are respected by many people any attempt to enforce turkey like reforms and these parties will cry foul and then it's all down hill from there.

This has to be done in a controlled environment and since you say that radical parties are misusing the media and their power, you have to start somewhere. Otherwise, the cycle of nightmare will continue forever.

It's very difficult to break the hold these parties have over the people, these parties have been around since the British ruled the sub-continent and so they unfortunately have the respect and confidence of a large chuck of the Pakistani population.

In order to remove over-conservatism from the society and old-fashioned perspectives, government has to take people into confidence. And now is the best time that the people of Pakistan need reassurance and warmth from a source that can guarantee them a safe, prosperous life. What other time is riper than now? :). In fact, I'd suggest you take extensive Turkish help by inviting their politico-religious figures to preach to the citizens of Pakistan in open seminars. It will work because this is the stage where people are realizing regarding how bad extremism in anything can be.

We are trying as hard as possible to make people realize the problems posed by extremist ideas but the problem is that the elements that encourage extremism are also quite active, we have had mild successes but the people want to live under an Islamic govt and see what it looks like, I have noticed a trend, the farther you are from this problem, the more alluring it seems, for example: If I say that I love taliban in Bajaur, people will beat me with whatever they have at hand possibly shoot me and then take me to meet all the families that have lost members to talib brutality. If I say the same in northern Punjab, people will say i'm an idiot, If I say it in southern Punjab, some people will say that I am a real muslim, same in sindh and If I say the same among some British muslims, they will embrace me, call me there brother, shower me in treasures and so.
To realize that Taliban are not as nice as they seem, people have to experience their brutality first hand, unfortunately, my community is that stupid, but I can't abandon them, so I try my best to bring them to their senses. There are not many Talib lovers in Pakistan, sympathisers, yes but very few lovers and facilitators I have met only one man who I have seen claim that TTP are warriors of God, here to correct the wrongs and rescue mankind, I got so upset that at the end of our argument that if Allah really does want me to kill people to gain his love, I would rather become an Atheist and go to hell, but I said that in anger, I know my religion does not preach hatred, how could a religion who's name means "peace" preach hatred and murder ?

Your people are aware what has happened to their country because of extremists. Thousands of men, women and children have been painfully severed off their lives that God had gifted them. You all have to make a social initiative that would make your government take notice.

The people are coming about, there is increasing awareness about the talibs, and people are realizing they are not fighting for muslims, rather, they are fighting for their own domination.
But unfortunately, the "Good Taliban, Bad Taliban" theory screws it for the people. They hate TTP but not Afghan Taliban, I find it very immoral to think that anybody who kills me is a terrorist but anybody who kills anybody else is a saviour.
I'm preaching against it, hopefully people will take notice and think rationally.
 
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I would really like to know how the TTP manages to maneuver hundreds to sometimes thousands out of their holes to a well ditched in and armed posts time and time again

Just leaves me wondering how hundreds of Taliban manage to bypass all this and yet surprise us with our pants down. My cousin, during is posting at the front said that they were calling in cobras even when they saw a cart moving. I wonder if these carts have some cloaking technology now that escapes our Ops, our drones and sentries.

Thank you very much for raising these questions. I hoped that others would raise the same questions like you did.
If you are familiar with C2 interactions , then you already know that TTP has it well managed. Their ISR capability is very strong which also support their C2 infrastructure. They have also adopted Mission Command instead of Detailed Command as their preferred way of conducting C2. Not only that but also TTP has staff functions.
Do you sincerely believe that this is possible for few rag tag militias ? The answer is no. Instead , I can see hallmarks of a professional military in each of TTP operations. Not to mention their I&W system which is surprisingly very accurate. All roads lead to Rome and I ask you all to get ready to face the harsh truth when you find the answers. Each of our Shaheed PA personnel knew the answers moment before their death. TTP is not what popular belief suggest it to be. As you you , things are not as they seem.
 
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Thank you very much for raising these questions. I hoped that others would raise the same questions like you did.
If you are familiar with C2 interactions , then you already know that TTP has it well managed. Their ISR capability is very strong which also support their C2 infrastructure. They have also adopted Mission Command instead of Detailed Command as their preferred way of conducting C2. Not only that but also TTP has staff functions.
Do you sincerely believe that this is possible for few rag tag militias ? The answer is no. Instead , I can see hallmarks of a professional military in each of TTP operations. Not to mention their I&W system which is surprisingly very accurate. All roads lead to Rome and I ask you all to get ready to face the harsh truth when you find the answers. Each of our Shaheed PA personnel knew the answers moment before their death. TTP is not what popular belief suggest it to be. As you you , things are not as they seem.

Indeed they are a formidable enemy and they have a very sound structure of command, their operational capability is also appreciable, but that is not because they are super humans or anything. The reason is merely that these people were trained by the Mujahideen, who were in turn trained by American and Pakistani special forces. Then from where we left off, other governments with dark agendas took over, we have found evidence of Involvement of a couple of UAE hotshot sheikhs, Iran, India and possibly Russia(Can not be said for certain since Russian merchandise is easily available in black market). From one of their hideouts we also found a couple of videos of Talib recruits being trained by a man in ANA uniform, these videos were released tot the media as well.
 
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Indeed they are a formidable enemy and they have a very sound structure of command, their operational capability is also appreciable, but that is not because they are super humans or anything. The reason is merely that these people were trained by the Mujahideen, who were in turn trained by American and Pakistani special forces. Then from where we left off, other governments with dark agendas took over, we have found evidence of Involvement of a couple of UAE hotshot sheikhs, Iran, India and possibly Russia(Can not be said for certain since Russian merchandise is easily available in black market). From one of their hideouts we also found a couple of videos of Talib recruits being trained by a man in ANA uniform, these videos were released tot the media as well.

First of all , army personnels graduated from real military academy are taking part in TTP led operations . I refrain from mentioning the origin of those personnel.
In short run , Afghanistan and India might have some advantage in helping TTP but not strategically. Pakistan run by TTP ideology will be more hostile to India than anything we can imagine. On the other hand TTP is linked to Islamic Brotherhood Movement aka Al Qaeda which also shares ideological affinities with the one preached by Moududi. It is in no one's interest in the region to see TTP to be successful. There are lot of supporters of Moududi ideology in Pakistan know that they will never win an election to form a government. But they are unwilling to give up their Moderate status right now. TTP was created by this particular quarter to open a new front while not exposing themselves . Their objective is to rewrite Pakistan's constitution in line with Moududi idealism which is not very different than what Sayeed Qutb preached. They have also infiltrated every civil and military institution in Pakistan. No military operation therefore ,against TTP will be successful unless we see it in bigger picture.
 
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This thread is slowly becoming a den of loosely knitted speculations and conspiracy theories. Please can we just talk reality for a moment.
 
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Thank you very much for raising these questions. I hoped that others would raise the same questions like you did.
If you are familiar with C2 interactions , then you already know that TTP has it well managed. Their ISR capability is very strong which also support their C2 infrastructure. They have also adopted Mission Command instead of Detailed Command as their preferred way of conducting C2. Not only that but also TTP has staff functions.
Do you sincerely believe that this is possible for few rag tag militias ? The answer is no. Instead , I can see hallmarks of a professional military in each of TTP operations. Not to mention their I&W system which is surprisingly very accurate. All roads lead to Rome and I ask you all to get ready to face the harsh truth when you find the answers. Each of our Shaheed PA personnel knew the answers moment before their death. TTP is not what popular belief suggest it to be. As you you , things are not as they seem.

C2
cant agree more. the hallmark of these insurgents here and across the border has been innovation re command & control they have small fully independent functioning packets who operate in their areas of operation they are also keeping the radio trafic to a minimum which in the past has resulted in ground & air strikes

Intelligence
being local & indigenous also means they have effective intelligence hence early warning is no issue they have both “willing” & “unwilling” tribes to pass them the required intelligence whenever there is an army movement or deployment to exploit any vulnerability.

War effort
Re resources you know the saying that the army moves on its stomach and I must say that the amount of funds & resources at the hands of TTP is astounding that it is able to wage a full scale war with the state for such a long time.
Before some one points out that the art of the gorilla warfare is all about interdiction, hit and run to demoralise the enemy with minimum use of resources, I would add that TTP hasn’t spared any expense when paying off its foot soldiers (30k) and the kind of weaponry used by them to take on our main battle tanks was nothing short of impressive where they were able to defeat the armour of our main battle tanks (by defeat I mean disable, non-functional, inoperable).(re our first engagement in Sawat operation rah e nijat)

Sources
There are countless instances where there have been from hours to days long pitched battles making them at par with a regular force. Someone hinted some possible sources from “not so friendly” to the “brotherly Muslim” countries and I fully agree. While our Arab brothers make record breaking skyscrapers, lavish beach resorts & hotels and F1 tracks they also spare funds for the madrasas & Mullahs in Pakistan to spread their ideology which is stark contrast to land of Sufis & saints we call Pakistan. The price of friendship (oil, money) with our Arab brothers has come in the shape of radicalisation & intolerance.


On ground our intelligence agencies has lost 500 officers (quote Dawn news) the number of field agents maybe on top. To make their point TTP operatives killed a group of children on suspicion of spying because they were seen taking sweets from an army personal near a check post. (incident near parachinar) So whatever intelligence our forces lack on ground they have more of.


Finally about their planning & executing I can only come with two explanations
1. they have active & full scale Indian support
2. They have retried officers from amry/ ISI (when it was purged of the radicals)

About the second point I will support my argument with the fact that one captured terrorist in the Ahmedi massacre in Lahore was identified & captured by a retired SSG (Ahmedi) officer who recognised him while he tried to mix up with the people fleeing the place.

Ideology
Finally their conviction well that’s proven that the are following the Khawarij ideology who justified slaying Ali r.a. countless other Sahabah in the name of Islam. Just proving the Hadith that they will recite the Holy Quran but it will not go down their throat.
When Ibn Muljim (the assassin of Ali r.a) was being killed he was reciting the Holy Quran. Such is height of their belief that shook ordinary Muslims when facing them. I cant blame our soldiers who come into contact for the first time & may hesitate more than they would against the usual Indian rival.
 
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About what Sir ? It will be my honour to fill you in on the details if I have any knowledge of the topic you wish to know about.

too many questions

were the lost soldiers on fighting patrol and lost the way?
when was their last radio communication?
were they abducted from the post?
Did the HQ react or not?
were they relieving the people at the post and got ambushed on their way?
Were they on foot or there were vehicles involved?
were they perusing Taliban & fell into an ambush?
What happened to the post itself, who controls it?

the whole episode is very sketchy with a lot of ambiguity
 
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