Afghan Taliban capture Pakistani soldiers in cross border attack

[RescueRanger]

well govt policy are working against for both for army and for civilian

Pakistan army is fighting with own mans

RIP TO DEAD

Correction! The Pakistani army is fighting against a scourge that threatens the very security and integrity of the nation. And the Pakistani people support this effort!

 

[balck soul]

Correction! The Pakistani army is fighting against a scourge that threatens the very security and integrity of the nation. And the Pakistani people support this effort!

well well you are half right do you mean is there any threates to Pakistan as an nation

do you think without local support Taliban is getting powerful day by day

will you please expalin in details

as you said Pakistan army is fighting for security and integrity

why you use integrity ??

 

[RescueRanger]

well well you are half right do you mean is there any threates to Pakistan as an nation

do you think without local support Taliban is getting powerful day by day

will you please expalin in details

as you said Pakistan army is fighting for security and integrity

why you use integrity ??

Its common sense. Pakistan as a nation is fighting against that threatens all that we want and desire just like any other nation. Things like development, education, a strong economy and a place on the world stage.

Pakistan has been in this fight for the long run, and we know the stakes better than anyone else. We are also a nation with dynamics that boggle the minds of many analysts.

The Taliban threaten our integrity in the sense that their brand of "Islam" is nothing more then oppression and hatred disguised in a veil of religious doctrine. If you or anyone thinks that this war can be fought and won by military might alone then you are surely mistaken.

This is a war of ideals and belief. It includes the academics, the religious, the administrative and judicial and executive. But most of all, it requires the support of the common man.

There is no alternative, for the sake of our children's future, inshallah we will be triumphant. And it would serve our neighbours and the international community well to understand this fact...

 

[Old School]

Buddy calm down.
My father is commanding Zhob militia,Yes its hard to command them.But u cant say everybdy is incompetent...

I have seen a F.C soldier with this jaw blown with a BLA bullet standing and smiling.

I have seen a post of only 6 soldiers attacked by 50-60 talib fighters heavily armed with RPG-9s,grenades,LMGS,night visions and weapons at night in a far off (with no links to base or the H.Q except Radio and a 4 hour drive or a 1 hour helicopter flight) near waziristan and getting 12 of their brethern dogs getting slayed... thanks to our Brothers (1 shaheed...May Allah Bless him,ameen).
Before comming to conclusions one must see the reality and see wat happened and correct our mistake by taking action rather then just talkin.

Honestly speaking, PA is not getting the required co-operation from the locals. This makes the task very difficult. No one in Rawalpindi or Islamabad will publicly admit this for the sake of national political correctness. We need to redeploy the FC and employ units from PR there instead.

 

[Parashuram1]

Its common sense. Pakistan as a nation is fighting against that threatens all that we want and desire just like any other nation. Things like development, education, a strong economy and a place on the world stage.

Pakistan has been in this fight for the long run, and we know the stakes better than anyone else. We are also a nation with dynamics that boggle the minds of many analysts.

The Taliban threaten our integrity in the sense that their brand of "Islam" is nothing more then oppression and hatred disguised in a veil of religious doctrine. If you or anyone thinks that this war can be fought and won by military might alone then you are surely mistaken.

This is a war of ideals and belief. It includes the academics, the religious, the administrative and judicial and executive. But most of all, it requires the support of the common man.

There is no alternative, for the sake of our children's future, inshallah we will be triumphant. And it would serve our neighbours and the international community well to understand this fact...

You have stated very just claims, friend and as a sovereign nation you have every right to have a place at the world stage with a strong economic and educational background. But in order to modernize the mindset of your people, you will have to remove religion from school curriculum.

The other day, I had been going through an article that states the influence the local (mullahs I think) preachers have in your country. Virtually they rule the roost in your land. Unless your government takes reforms along the lines of Ataturk, things won't be changing anytime soon.
Turkey was very chaotic when its modern foundations were being laid. At this time, you are no different and perhaps this evil of militancy is happening so as to bring a better change to your country.

I don't called for closure of religious places like Communist governments (I am conservative myself by some standards), but in your country's case where ignorant people's mindset has a dangerous possibility of going beyond prayers, separation of state and religion is extremely essential. If not permanently, at least for 4-5 decades. Unless you do that, as you said that battling it out with military won't take you anywhere in the long run.

Your opponents here the Taliban have some sort of medium to preach to people which is why they are able to invoke false emotions in people to ensure a fresh supply of recruits each time one supply chain shuts. It can be newsprint, media, radio, anything that can reach especially to the backward and less literate regions of the country. Your government needs to clamp that down. Because to kill an ideology, you need more than guns, tanks and fighters.

The best possible solution to your country's improvement as I see it is: separate state affairs from religion. Stop taking oaths on your holy book and have a separate book of Pakistani Constitution that enshrines the foundations of your country. Make sure that your officials are largely from the liberal backgrounds who lay more emphasis on economy, infrastructure and education rather than religion and culture. Make culture a thing for tourism that would not only expand your public's outlook but also generate immense revenues for your government.

Abolish any ministry that associates to religion in specific. Strip your school and university level textbooks of religious education and replace it with science, business and arts related subjects only. Disqualify holy education as the minimum requirement considered equivalent for a job in your government service (some countries have such rules, so if you have any).

Make any religion-related poem, ode etc irrelevant to civil education and leave it upon the choice of families. I am aware that Turkey is a strong ally of your country. Take advice from them on how to go about this since they share similar cultural aspects with you than we other Europeans do.

I sincerely appreciate many such members as you who desire to see a moderate, modern, developed country instead of a faith-obsessed backward nation. Religion should be kept in two places only: Home and Place of Worship.

 

[Icarus]

If you or anyone thinks that this war can be fought and won by military might alone then you are surely mistaken.

This is a war of ideals and belief. It includes the academics, the religious, the administrative and judicial and executive. But most of all, it requires the support of the common man.

Sir, allow me to brief you on the stated lines, I am taking Bajaur Agency in question since these steps have been taken before my eyes there.
Sir, the Taliban spread their vile propaganda through a network radio stations they had set up, quite crude but very effective, they used to give religious lectures, quoting distorted lines from the Holy Quran to incite people to kill like animals in the name of all they hold sacred. When not giving lectures, they played anthems, that celebrated their "Martyrs" who had died fighting the "Hypocrite" Army/F.C and Police. By the grace of God, the radio network has been destroyed, all they have left now is a radio broadcast station inside Afghanistan, it's signals do not reach much of Bajaur except the border region, NATO and ANA have yet to take care of that.
Even when the radio network had not been dismantled, we set up a radio station to counter theirs, called Azadi FM, it was basically the complete opposite of it's Talib counterpart, we played songs, nationalist songs and when we were done playing songs, we allowed people to call in and request their favourite songs ! The people were delighted and within 6 months we held 96% of the listenership of Bajaur and we were even getting calls from Landi Kotal. But it wasn't all music, we broadcast lectures, promoting nationalism, encouraging people to join the militias and lectures about religion from distinguished scholars to try and counter the Talib propaganda.
We have also given utmost priority to repairing schools, colleges and BHUs that were destroyed by the Taliban.
So you see sir, we are trying to win the battle for hearts and minds as well as winning the War on terror, all we need is some co-operation from the Govt and you, yes, you can help too by just sending a couple of cards or biscuits or any other token of your appreciation on eid, it really lifts the soldier's spirits and I have observed that after seeing how much people love them and appreciate what they are doing for their nation, they fight with ever increasing vigour.

 

[Icarus]

You have stated very just claims, friend and as a sovereign nation you have every right to have a place at the world stage with a strong economic and educational background. But in order to modernize the mindset of your people, you will have to remove religion from school curriculum.

The other day, I had been going through an article that states the influence the local (mullahs I think) preachers have in your country. Virtually they rule the roost in your land. Unless your government takes reforms along the lines of Ataturk, things won't be changing anytime soon.
Turkey was very chaotic when its modern foundations were being laid. At this time, you are no different and perhaps this evil of militancy is happening so as to bring a better change to your country.

I don't called for closure of religious places like Communist governments (I am conservative myself by some standards), but in your country's case where ignorant people's mindset has a dangerous possibility of going beyond prayers, separation of state and religion is extremely essential. If not permanently, at least for 4-5 decades. Unless you do that, as you said that battling it out with military won't take you anywhere in the long run.

Your opponents here the Taliban have some sort of medium to preach to people which is why they are able to invoke false emotions in people to ensure a fresh supply of recruits each time one supply chain shuts. It can be newsprint, media, radio, anything that can reach especially to the backward and less literate regions of the country. Your government needs to clamp that down. Because to kill an ideology, you need more than guns, tanks and fighters.

The best possible solution to your country's improvement as I see it is: separate state affairs from religion. Stop taking oaths on your holy book and have a separate book of Pakistani Constitution that enshrines the foundations of your country. Make sure that your officials are largely from the liberal backgrounds who lay more emphasis on economy, infrastructure and education rather than religion and culture. Make culture a thing for tourism that would not only expand your public's outlook but also generate immense revenues for your government.

Abolish any ministry that associates to religion in specific. Strip your school and university level textbooks of religious education and replace it with science, business and arts related subjects only. Disqualify holy education as the minimum requirement considered equivalent for a job in your government service (some countries have such rules, so if you have any).

Make any religion-related poem, ode etc irrelevant to civil education and leave it upon the choice of families. I am aware that Turkey is a strong ally of your country. Take advice from them on how to go about this since they share similar cultural aspects with you than we other Europeans do.

I sincerely appreciate many such members as you who desire to see a moderate, modern, developed country instead of a faith-obsessed backward nation. Religion should be kept in two places only: Home and Place of Worship.

I agree with your beliefs completely, however, I feel Pakistan is not ready for such a step, people hold religion very close to their hearts any such attempt will be met by severe criticism and I fear it may even lead to revolt, the religious parties will cash in on the situation and create a sort of "I told you so" atmosphere. Such an action will also help to give strength to the Talib claim that the Govt is trying to distance the people from their faith.
I believe such steps are necessary, but not possible for the foreseeable future.

 

[Aslan]

Many here need to understand that the religion has absolutely nothing to do with the mess that we are in. It just shown that how well the propaganda against Islam works that every one with zero knowledge of Islam tells us what we should and should not teach, and learn. To my western friends here, who are so vigorously defending the western way, I am going to use israel as an example here. The whole existence of theirs based on political and violent, religious ideas, they want a whole group of people annihilated from their lands because they believe that their religion tells them so, and that is still acceptable by all. I dont see you guys lecturing them about their religion, why has Islam become a free for all. Now if G.H.W.Bush Jr. had stared a war that killed thousands, and also claimed to be a born again Christian, shall we take this mess as a re ignited crusade. The answer to that would be a big no, with many excuses. So is the case with the talibans, this whole idea of violent jihad was invented and fed to them by the CIA. In Islam there are rules, and there is no Jihad with out following proper procedures, and the Islamic literature has nothing to do with any thing. It is just an excuse that the west uses to get as much of it out of our system as they can.

 

[Icarus]

Many here need to understand that the religion has absolutely nothing to do with the mess that we are in. It just shown that how well the propaganda against Islam works that every one with zero knowledge of Islam tells us what we should and should not teach, and learn. To my western friends here, who are so vigorously defending the western way, I am going to use israel as an example here. The whole existence of theirs based on political and violent, religious ideas, they want a whole group of people annihilated from their lands because they believe that their religion tells them so, and that is still acceptable by all. I dont see you guys lecturing them about their religion, why has Islam become a free for all. Now if G.H.W.Bush Jr. had stared a war that killed thousands, and also claimed to be a born again Christian, shall we take this mess as a re ignited crusade. The answer to that would be a big no, with many excuses. So is the case with the talibans, this whole idea of violent jihad was invented and fed to them by the CIA. In Islam there are rules, and there is no Jihad with out following proper procedures, and the Islamic literature has nothing to do with any thing. It is just an excuse that the west uses to get as much of it out of our system as they can.

You are correct, indeed Islam does call for strict limits to be observed during war but the problem is that these people are using religion as a vehicle and unfortunately as long as there are illiterate Muslims, they(Terrorists) will always have a steady supply of recruits.

 

[Aslan]

You are correct, indeed Islam does call for strict limits to be observed during war but the problem is that these people are using religion as a vehicle and unfortunately as long as there are illiterate Muslims, they(Terrorists) will always have a steady supply of recruits.

The only solution I see to that problem is to get the madressas under the observation of the GOV, and to have strict regulations in place. And above all to teach people about the true Islam. And above all to put a tap on the $ molvis who only believe in the religion of money and nothing else.

 

[Icarus]

The only solution I see to that problem is to get the madressas under the observation of the GOV, and to have strict regulations in place. And above all to teach people about the true Islam. And above all to put a tap on the $ molvis who only believe in the religion of money and nothing else.

It's not that simple brother, we are the country with more mosques than any other, we can not observe the activities of ALL moulvis and their followers. I think the best possible solution would be to ban religious parties from taking part in politics, since they support the Taliban cause, the Basta***.
It will deal a major blow to the pro-Taliban lobby.

 

[Javed3]

AgNoStIc MuSliM
""Because 'reconciliation', which would involve the Taliban participating in the political system and giving up their violent struggle, would be the fastest way towards ending the insurgency in Afghanistan, speeding up the withdrawal of NATO, and therefore also affecting the insurgency in Pakistan"".

I fully agree. Insurgency in FATA is a political problem and there is no military solution. Taliban have to be incorporated in the political space through dialog and reconciliation initiatives.

Extremism and Insurgency is fueled by abject poverty. PA operations have been conducted at the behest of the USA at Desi prices. There are two (2) suggestions:
1) The US must be made to pay for massive development and reconstruction efforts, at least 10% of the estimated $ 140 b / year war effort.
2) Army and FC deployments should be charged at a reasonable working rate of $ 160 per man-day ($ 20 / hour is a pretty lowly wage). That alone should yeild about $ 8.7 b / year for the 150,000 trops deployed in FATA.

The US will stop pestering us to "do more" once they have to pay a fair price. Currently they are just paying off select political / military leadership of our country getting away with a few millions here and there.

As an incentive Our political / military leadership too can be legally entitled to 5-10% Sweat Equity commission once they can get a fair price from the USA.

 

[RescueRanger]

Sir, allow me to brief you on the stated lines, I am taking Bajaur Agency in question since these steps have been taken before my eyes there.
Sir, the Taliban spread their vile propaganda through a network radio stations they had set up, quite crude but very effective, they used to give religious lectures, quoting distorted lines from the Holy Quran to incite people to kill like animals in the name of all they hold sacred. When not giving lectures, they played anthems, that celebrated their "Martyrs" who had died fighting the "Hypocrite" Army/F.C and Police. By the grace of God, the radio network has been destroyed, all they have left now is a radio broadcast station inside Afghanistan, it's signals do not reach much of Bajaur except the border region, NATO and ANA have yet to take care of that.
Even when the radio network had not been dismantled, we set up a radio station to counter theirs, called Azadi FM, it was basically the complete opposite of it's Talib counterpart, we played songs, nationalist songs and when we were done playing songs, we allowed people to call in and request their favourite songs ! The people were delighted and within 6 months we held 96% of the listenership of Bajaur and we were even getting calls from Landi Kotal. But it wasn't all music, we broadcast lectures, promoting nationalism, encouraging people to join the militias and lectures about religion from distinguished scholars to try and counter the Talib propaganda.
We have also given utmost priority to repairing schools, colleges and BHUs that were destroyed by the Taliban.
So you see sir, we are trying to win the battle for hearts and minds as well as winning the War on terror, all we need is some co-operation from the Govt and you, yes, you can help too by just sending a couple of cards or biscuits or any other token of your appreciation on eid, it really lifts the soldier's spirits and I have observed that after seeing how much people love them and appreciate what they are doing for their nation, they fight with ever increasing vigour.

So it comes back to my original point, it is a war of ideals. Military might alone cannot win... As for knowledge of the area and what Pak Army is doing, i know far to well what is going on and what actions are being taken.

Somethings are best left unsaid on forums such as these, if you know what i mean. As for playing my part, please trust me when i say this... I am playing my part better than anyone could understand.

God bless you and our nation!

 

[Icarus]

So it comes back to my original point, it is a war of ideals.

Quite right Sir, It is.

Military might alone cannot win... As for knowledge of the area and what Pak Army is doing, i know far to well what is going on and what actions are being taken.

I have absolute confidence in your knowledge Sir.

Somethings are best left unsaid on forums such as these, if you know what i mean.

Indeed Sir, I do.

As for playing my part, please trust me when i say this... I am playing my part better than anyone could understand.

Ofcourse Sir, forgive me for my naivety.

God bless you and our nation!

Thank you Sir, your prayers are of paramount importance.
Pakistan Zindabad !

 

[Icarus]

I fully agree. Insurgency in FATA is a political problem and there is no military solution. Taliban have to be incorporated in the political space through dialog and reconciliation initiatives.

Have you heard of "Nizam-e-Adal" ? The Taliban were given a chance at reconciliation, however they chose not to opt for it in favour of their agenda of complete occupation of Pakistan.

Extremism and Insurgency is fueled by abject poverty. PA operations have been conducted at the behest of the USA at Desi prices.

A shameless and pointless allegation, I bet the operation looks like it's being done on America's request when you are sitting comfortably in the U.K yourself, you are in no position to speak about it unless you, like us are afraid to send your children to school with fear that you might not see them again, afraid to take your family for shopping to the market, afraid about what would happen to your family, should you die as a result of terrorist activity today. This military operation is for OUR OWN survival and if you have a problem against it I would like you to come here see how things are at ground zero and then say it.

There are two (2) suggestions:
1) The US must be made to pay for massive development and reconstruction efforts, at least 10% of the estimated $ 140 b / year war effort.

U.S is helping however we are nobody to claim anything since this operation is being done by Pakistani forces, overseen by Pakistani generals, planned by Pakistani strategists and authorized by the Pakistani government.

2) Army and FC deployments should be charged at a reasonable working rate of $ 160 per man-day ($ 20 / hour is a pretty lowly wage). That alone should yeild about $ 8.7 b / year for the 150,000 trops deployed in FATA.

We are not guns for hire, we may work for our nation on a meagre pay but we don't do it for the pay in the first place, we do it for the satisfaction of having played our role. We need nobody's money for what we do, the love of our nation and the gratitude of the people who we save from the Talib Barbarians is enough.

The US will stop pestering us to "do more" once they have to pay a fair price. Currently they are just paying off select political / military leadership of our country getting away with a few millions here and there.

They are NOT paying anyone for our services to the nation and as for "Do More", everyone is entitled to their views and has the right to express them.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | US needs to do more in Bajaur, says Pakistan
Just as Colonel Nauman did here, now should he also be charged a couple of million for saying "Do more" ?

As an incentive Our political / military leadership too can be legally entitled to 5-10% Sweat Equity commission once they can get a fair price from the USA.

Finally, We do not want ANY, absolutely ANY money or benefits from the US. This is our War we fight for our nation and we don't want to be paid for something we aren't doing.
"Halal is roti humain lakhon ki dolat say ziada azeez hai"