Aero scientists pull off LCA, struggle with IJT, Saras

[IndianArmy]

I think it is not fair to criticize HAL... they are doing with the limited capability... and are managing efficiently .. name any other organization... who are doing so with very limited funds and man power...

No Govt organization is working with limited Fund, But Limited Resource.... It is not the talent which matters in India, But Motivation...

 

[guest11]

I think it is not fair to criticize HAL... they are doing with the limited capability... and are managing efficiently .. name any other organization... who are doing so with very limited funds and man power...

Limited funds, are you kidding me? A country with the tenth largest defence budget in the world, and with the fourth largest economy by PPP don't have funds for maintainig it's fighters or a country which boasts of having 3rd largest number of engineers and scientists do not have even manpower to maintain it's fighters.

Maybe we have the most incompetent pilots who don't know how to fly jets, but you know what they never crashed a Mirage in it's 25 years of service.

Even Ethiopia is maintaining its Migs and yet we can't.

For a better govt organization, try ISRO or BEL, they too have very limited funds.

 

[JonAsad]

How is it that Indian aero-scientists and the IAF have been able to develop a highly complex aircraft and trainer in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) to Initial Operational Clearance, without a single crash, but are struggling to develop an intermediate version of a military aircraft trainer, the IJT, and the first indigenous civil aircraft, Saras?

Its simple- LCA is manufactured by Israelis-
The real indigenous aircraft india is trying to make is IJT and is failing miserably- and planes are crashing badly-
Good Day-

 

[guest11]

Its simple- LCA is manufactured by Israelis-
The real indigenous aircraft india is trying to make is IJT and is failing miserably- and planes are crashing badly-
Good Day-

That was a really a well thought statement you gave. Good Day to you Sir.

 

[MilSpec]

Since you have worked in HAL you must explain the exact reason behind nickname of Indian Migs. What went wrong that India had the most horrible crash rate in the world. I guess you too have blood on your hands. Any individual working in the HAL or any other organization don't loose his or her life, it's always the soldiers. So next time you see any IAF pilot, just go and apologize to him for your incompetence as he might have lost a friend in those crashes.

And whenever you are back in India, if ever, just PM me so I could arrange some meetings for you with the "Men on the ground" as there are plenty in my family. They will be very happy to learn about the work ethics of Defence PSUs.

As for my part I got rejected because of my weird right shoulder problem.

And last but not the least, Indian constitution has provided me with the power of criticizing, but only if you think that you bigger than the constitution I will stop.

There is a kahavat in bengali.. "alp buddhi bhayankari" I hope you got it.

I can tell you the exact reasons for Mig 21 crashes, these crashes leave their finger prints on the black box which is reviewed by DGOQCA,
Not one black box recovery data has ever been traced a reason pointed back to HAL.

In 1961 to 1969 India had acquired around 120 mig 21's which were a mis of Mig21 R and Mig 21S

Later around 68 India began importing Mig 21 M and mig 21 MF were built under license essentially CBU's for initial batches.and then later entered production full production lines around "1975"

Mig 27's irrespective of popular opinion is not license manufactured but license assembled from CKD kits from Russia, but Upgrades to aircrafts have been done by HAL.

Mig 21 Bison upgrade was done by HAL not drdo or ADA according to air force specs.

Now lets me burst your rang de basanti bubble:

MIG 21 crashes:

MIG 21 F/S/MF were the top of the line fighters in 1960's to 1980's. Fighters who flew mig 21 had to graduate through hunters, gnats and then finally get to 21 hence had amazing amount of training behind them .

Mig 21 is an inherently complex aircraft to fly and needs extreme amount of training, with advent of mig 23/27/jaguars/mig 29 suddenly mig 21 was no longer front line premier aircraft and newer pilots with relatively lesser training were graduating straight from Kirans to Fishbed, which is like puting you from a cycle onto a hayabusa.

Next, All aircrafts when go through overhaul are ripped to individual pieces , inspected, faulty parts are replaced and then re assembled.

In early 90's with breakup of soviet union, russian satellite states were offering spares which lower in cost compared to the ones manufactured by HAL, so your dear elected Netas procured spares for Mig 21's from Ukraine and Uzbekistan,

All blackbox reports of CRE/CRI and DGQCA have pointed towards faulty imported spares and subsystems imported by MOD, not one has ever come back to HAL.

1)Faulty imported spares
2)Age of Aircraft
3) lack of supersonic jet trainer has attributed to Mig 21 crashes

Not Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has been ever charged with any misgivings or culpable practices.

Mig 27's crashes:

Mig 27 systems are not manufactured in India by HAL but only assembled, if any manufacturing flaw attributes to Mig 21, responsibility lies with Russian Manufacturers, Again Mig 27 is an ageing platform and should be retired off service. No mig 27 crash has ever been tied to fault assembly process.

Lets discuss HAL now
guest11:

If you get a chance to breathe for a second to calm your rising blood pressure, think if HAL's manufacturing practices were so wrong , shouldn't Jaguars, Cheetahs, chetaks, Dorniers, SU 30MKI be falling out of the sky everyday, why only mig 21's and Mig 27.

How come you complain about a Migs and not about Sukhois and jaguars. I hope you realise SU 30 MKI are produced HAL nasik division.
Incidentally mig 21series, mig 21 Bisons, mig 27's, all were also from the same nasik divison
(and Btw I am also from nasik division)


In the field of engineering there are no general answers, there are specific problems and specific answers with validations. As far as flying coffins tagline that you fancy, dont go by journalists.. they will sell their soul to sell some news papers, mig 21 has been the back bone of india for a long time and still my country's airspace is safe guarded by the mighty bisons (Look up bisons track record and capabilities). If any one in your family has flown a mig 21 ask him about what she can do... you will probably never utter another word against the fish bed.

The constitution also allows to ask questions to Ministry of defence... ever wondered why LCA which was supposed to replace Mig 21's by 1995 still hasn't entered production, ask that to MOD?

Ask MOD why LCA orders were not opened up to 200 so that HAL could dedicate a full production line.

Ask MOD why HAL was not allowed to upgrade Marut with a newer Turmansky R27 engine as a stop gap to develop Lca in early 80's?


Tell me one incidence where Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Manufacturing practices has ever been blamed for crash or an airforce life ????

 

[kingdurgaking]

No Govt organization is working with limited Fund, But Limited Resource.... It is not the talent which matters in India, But Motivation...

What do you mean?.. are they working with billions??.. see the amount of investment given to them and compare it with other Aeronautical agencies..

 

[MilSpec]

Sorry, Why you quit HAL? I mean if you do not mind.

UCLA Ph.D Non Linear structural analysis... thats the reason

 

[kingdurgaking]

Limited funds, are you kidding me? A country with the tenth largest defence budget in the world, and with the fourth largest economy by PPP don't have funds for maintainig it's fighters or a country which boasts of having 3rd largest number of engineers and scientists do not have even manpower to maintain it's fighters.

Maybe we have the most incompetent pilots who don't know how to fly jets, but you know what they never crashed a Mirage in it's 25 years of service.

Even Ethiopia is maintaining its Migs and yet we can't.

For a better govt organization, try ISRO or BEL, they too have very limited funds.

You are just kidding without knowing the real calculation or the fund injection...

First of all dont compare ISRO and DRDO..

10th largest budget means not all goes to DRDO.. DRDO holds customers IAF, Army and NAVY who pay them.. not government directly.. on request from any of the defence wing government releases the fund to DRDO....
DRDO doesnt gets funds from the government directly..

ISRO doesnt work this way... every launch they are making they get money except from education institutions .. any launch of government satellite they get money from government.. These sattelites are leased to privates like STAR, SUN etc... every launch is profit for ISRO..... In addition to this government provides huge chunk for new research as this business is profitable.. They get funds in all corners..

Most of the engineers in DRDO get penny.. i bet you will show your middle finger for the pay.... i read one excellent post from tarmak .... how the people were complaining on pay and how our honorable ex president APJ helped a bit.....

You can comment on IAF incompetence because they are not the one to be blamed because they dont have proper trainers.. and DRDO on other part dont have enough resource to do research .. just check the fund injected for IJT and compare it with similar product in other countries...

Ethopia and IAF are different.. they hardly have 100 fighters and you should have a prior knowledge on the flying hours... to do a comparison

 

[MilSpec]

Limited funds, are you kidding me? A country with the tenth largest defence budget in the world, and with the fourth largest economy by PPP don't have funds for maintainig it's fighters or a country which boasts of having 3rd largest number of engineers and scientists do not have even manpower to maintain it's fighters.

Maybe we have the most incompetent pilots who don't know how to fly jets, but you know what they never crashed a Mirage in it's 25 years of service.

Even Ethiopia is maintaining its Migs and yet we can't.

For a better govt organization, try ISRO or BEL, they too have very limited funds.

that does it... boss what world are you living in... get your facts straight.. you are comparing sortie rate of Ethiopia with India... also planes in Ethiopia are flown by Russian mercenaries fyi.
Do you know how cash strapped the entire economy was till 1995, You sir have no idea of what your talking about... do some research on Indian defense equipment and then post

 

[jdme]

Sad thing is these PSUs are responsible for our defense. And once some country a**-rams us, I doubt you will find the apologists here standing on front line. Anything Indian defense PSUs touch, it falls apart. May be HAL is not DRDO but it is still no good. We need massive privatization of our defense industry. We are only country that builds a indigenous weapon with 70=8-% imported parts and then declares it a success and starts "working" on newer weapon even though the old one is not even tested yet!

 

[guest11]

There is a kahavat in bengali.. "alp buddhi bhayankari" I hope you got it.

I can tell you the exact reasons for Mig 21 crashes, these crashes leave their finger prints on the black box which is reviewed by DGOQCA,
Not one black box recovery data has ever been traced a reason pointed back to HAL.

In 1961 to 1969 India had acquired around 120 mig 21's which were a mis of Mig21 R and Mig 21S

Later around 68 India began importing Mig 21 M and mig 21 MF were built under license essentially CBU's for initial batches.and then later entered production full production lines around "1975"

Mig 27's irrespective of popular opinion is not license manufactured but license assembled from CKD kits from Russia, but Upgrades to aircrafts have been done by HAL.

Mig 21 Bison upgrade was done by HAL not drdo or ADA according to air force specs.

Now lets me burst your rang de basanti bubble:

MIG 21 crashes:

MIG 21 F/S/MF were the top of the line fighters in 1960's to 1980's. Fighters who flew mig 21 had to graduate through hunters, gnats and then finally get to 21 hence had amazing amount of training behind them .

Mig 21 is an inherently complex aircraft to fly and needs extreme amount of training, with advent of mig 23/27/jaguars/mig 29 suddenly mig 21 was no longer front line premier aircraft and newer pilots with relatively lesser training were graduating straight from Kirans to Fishbed, which is like puting you from a cycle onto a hayabusa.

Next, All aircrafts when go through overhaul are ripped to individual pieces , inspected, faulty parts are replaced and then re assembled.

In early 90's with breakup of soviet union, russian satellite states were offering spares which lower in cost compared to the ones manufactured by HAL, so your dear elected Netas procured spares for Mig 21's from Ukraine and Uzbekistan,

All blackbox reports of CRE/CRI and DGQCA have pointed towards faulty imported spares and subsystems imported by MOD, not one has ever come back to HAL.

1)Faulty imported spares
2)Age of Aircraft
3) lack of supersonic jet trainer has attributed to Mig 21 crashes

Not Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has been ever charged with any misgivings or culpable practices.

Mig 27's crashes:

Mig 27 systems are not manufactured in India by HAL but only assembled, if any manufacturing flaw attributes to Mig 21, responsibility lies with Russian Manufacturers, Again Mig 27 is an ageing platform and should be retired off service. No mig 27 crash has ever been tied to fault assembly process.

Lets discuss HAL now
guest11:

If you get a chance to breathe for a second to calm your rising blood pressure, think if HAL's manufacturing practices were so wrong , shouldn't Jaguars, Cheetahs, chetaks, Dorniers, SU 30MKI be falling out of the sky everyday, why only mig 21's and Mig 27.

How come you complain about a Migs and not about Sukhois and jaguars. I hope you realise SU 30 MKI are produced HAL nasik division.
Incidentally mig 21series, mig 21 Bisons, mig 27's, all were also from the same nasik divison
(and Btw I am also from nasik division)


In the field of engineering there are no general answers, there are specific problems and specific answers with validations. As far as flying coffins tagline that you fancy, dont go by journalists.. they will sell their soul to sell some news papers, mig 21 has been the back bone of india for a long time and still my country's airspace is safe guarded by the mighty bisons (Look up bisons track record and capabilities). If any one in your family has flown a mig 21 ask him about what she can do... you will probably never utter another word against the fish bed.

The constitution also allows to ask questions to Ministry of defence... ever wondered why LCA which was supposed to replace Mig 21's by 1995 still hasn't entered production, ask that to MOD?

Ask MOD why LCA orders were not opened up to 200 so that HAL could dedicate a full production line.

Ask MOD why HAL was not allowed to upgrade Marut with a newer Turmansky R27 engine as a stop gap to develop Lca in early 80's?


Tell me one incidence where Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Manufacturing practices has ever been blamed for crash or an airforce life ????

Firstly, I would like to apologize for my erratic behavior earlier. It always bums me up when crashes or the related topic occurs. One of my distant cousin is a Mig 27 pilot and he told the kind of difficulties he faces with these downgraded and outright ancient Migs. He told me about the things like when his CO inquired about the overhauls or something, the HAL or the bureaucratic response (can't remember it was a long time back) was that HAL is too busy.

My another cousin is a Arty major, the first words he received on his very first posting on LOC was that never trust this gun (Insas). Is the DRDO so incompetent that they cannot provide a soldier on a 4000m high post a rifle which is reliable.

So, I know that I am pissed off but I am not wrong. Again, I don't mean to hurt your sentiments but there is a lot of incompetency in Defence PSUs.

 

[Army Strong]

Its simple- LCA is manufactured by Israelis-
The real indigenous aircraft india is trying to make is IJT and is failing miserably- and planes are crashing badly-
Good Day-

Nice, is this how you satisfy your ego. I wonder how you ever got to become a senior member, or the dumb F _____'s that appointed you that rank.

 

[Hulk]

There is a kahavat in bengali.. "alp buddhi bhayankari" I hope you got it.

I can tell you the exact reasons for Mig 21 crashes, these crashes leave their finger prints on the black box which is reviewed by DGOQCA,
Not one black box recovery data has ever been traced a reason pointed back to HAL.

In 1961 to 1969 India had acquired around 120 mig 21's which were a mis of Mig21 R and Mig 21S

Later around 68 India began importing Mig 21 M and mig 21 MF were built under license essentially CBU's for initial batches.and then later entered production full production lines around "1975"

Mig 27's irrespective of popular opinion is not license manufactured but license assembled from CKD kits from Russia, but Upgrades to aircrafts have been done by HAL.

Mig 21 Bison upgrade was done by HAL not drdo or ADA according to air force specs.

Now lets me burst your rang de basanti bubble:

MIG 21 crashes:

MIG 21 F/S/MF were the top of the line fighters in 1960's to 1980's. Fighters who flew mig 21 had to graduate through hunters, gnats and then finally get to 21 hence had amazing amount of training behind them .

Mig 21 is an inherently complex aircraft to fly and needs extreme amount of training, with advent of mig 23/27/jaguars/mig 29 suddenly mig 21 was no longer front line premier aircraft and newer pilots with relatively lesser training were graduating straight from Kirans to Fishbed, which is like puting you from a cycle onto a hayabusa.

Next, All aircrafts when go through overhaul are ripped to individual pieces , inspected, faulty parts are replaced and then re assembled.

In early 90's with breakup of soviet union, russian satellite states were offering spares which lower in cost compared to the ones manufactured by HAL, so your dear elected Netas procured spares for Mig 21's from Ukraine and Uzbekistan,

All blackbox reports of CRE/CRI and DGQCA have pointed towards faulty imported spares and subsystems imported by MOD, not one has ever come back to HAL.

1)Faulty imported spares
2)Age of Aircraft
3) lack of supersonic jet trainer has attributed to Mig 21 crashes

Not Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has been ever charged with any misgivings or culpable practices.

Mig 27's crashes:

Mig 27 systems are not manufactured in India by HAL but only assembled, if any manufacturing flaw attributes to Mig 21, responsibility lies with Russian Manufacturers, Again Mig 27 is an ageing platform and should be retired off service. No mig 27 crash has ever been tied to fault assembly process.

Lets discuss HAL now
guest11:

If you get a chance to breathe for a second to calm your rising blood pressure, think if HAL's manufacturing practices were so wrong , shouldn't Jaguars, Cheetahs, chetaks, Dorniers, SU 30MKI be falling out of the sky everyday, why only mig 21's and Mig 27.

How come you complain about a Migs and not about Sukhois and jaguars. I hope you realise SU 30 MKI are produced HAL nasik division.
Incidentally mig 21series, mig 21 Bisons, mig 27's, all were also from the same nasik divison
(and Btw I am also from nasik division)


In the field of engineering there are no general answers, there are specific problems and specific answers with validations. As far as flying coffins tagline that you fancy, dont go by journalists.. they will sell their soul to sell some news papers, mig 21 has been the back bone of india for a long time and still my country's airspace is safe guarded by the mighty bisons (Look up bisons track record and capabilities). If any one in your family has flown a mig 21 ask him about what she can do... you will probably never utter another word against the fish bed.

The constitution also allows to ask questions to Ministry of defence... ever wondered why LCA which was supposed to replace Mig 21's by 1995 still hasn't entered production, ask that to MOD?

Ask MOD why LCA orders were not opened up to 200 so that HAL could dedicate a full production line.

Ask MOD why HAL was not allowed to upgrade Marut with a newer Turmansky R27 engine as a stop gap to develop Lca in early 80's?


Tell me one incidence where Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Manufacturing practices has ever been blamed for crash or an airforce life ????

Wow such a nice read and well clarified, thanks to you.

 

[MilSpec]

Firstly, I would like to apologize for my erratic behavior earlier. It always bums me up when crashes or the related topic occurs. One of my distant cousin is a Mig 27 pilot and he told the kind of difficulties he faces with these downgraded and outright ancient Migs. He told me about the things like when his CO inquired about the overhauls or something, the HAL or the bureaucratic response (can't remember it was a long time back) was that HAL is too busy.

My another cousin is a Arty major, the first words he received on his very first posting on LOC was that never trust this gun (Insas). Is the DRDO so incompetent that they cannot provide a soldier on a 4000m high post a rifle which is reliable.

So, I know that I am pissed off but I am not wrong. Again, I don't mean to hurt your sentiments but there is a lot of incompetency in Defence PSUs

Mausam badal raha hai aur badlega...

I can understand the frustration and grievances of weapon systems not performing. All this india shining hype has got every youth in india full of unbreakable spirit to conquers victory against all odds, but this wasn't really the case back in 1990's. Think about weapon systems that we are complaining about, all conceived designed and/or fielded in the same time frame.

Indian manufacturing regime has traditionally been very lethargic and mundane, The turnaround happened in 1995, till then our public sectors and private sectors were equally responsible for the sorry state of manufacturing of all engineering goods.

You state the incompetency of defence PSU;s like HAL, OFB, NAL, ADA etc and government labs like DRDO, let me remind you that TATA, Mahindra, Hindustan motors were not if equally maybe worse than these, License raj had spoiled the market to such extent that none of these companies even had the capability to manufacture a decent car so the question of private players entering defence structure was beyond comprehension.

This state was maintained by the socialist model regime till 1992, but since then the fruits of librelization started being reaped and now we stand in this india which is no longer in a sorry bankrupt state where government of india had to mortgage is gold to stay afloat in 1991.

Now as the mentality of country changed towards modernization , so did the manufacturing practices, Ambassadors were replaced by pajeros and outlanders, Tatas started making real cars and mahindra relinquished the old willy's model and started making world beating SUV's. Sports bike started replacing bajaj priya's and banks started sending their people home to offer you loans.

This modernization happened beginning 1995, till then we were economically and more importantly ethically bankrupt. This millennium has brought a sense of wining to a population of a billion which always felt the never ending struggle was being lost on all fronts.

This revolution in Manufacturing caused PSU's like HAL which relied on conventional machine tools and Russian manufacturing standards to begin using state of the art CNC and robotics in manufacturing. Evidently quality of products designed and produced have changed drastically. Subsystems made by HAL, BHEL, BEML, BDL now compete against international armament producers which have nearly a century of experience behind them. Indian Armed forces do not discount any indian made products just because they are Indian, but still our indigenousness Radars, missiles, Sonars, Warships, Submarines, have sucessfully competed against top of the line commercial products and won.

Mausam badal raha hai aur badlega... when mahindra/tatas start designing and making cars that rival BMW and AUDI, you will see that HAL and BDL will surpass Lockheed aand boeing (hopefully) the above statement is not a fantasy but reflection of a country's aspiration. Your product systems are only as good as the work ethics of the people manufacturing it (prime eg japan)

Soviet fighters were purchased in that era because ,
they were the only one willing to sell to us
They were cheap
they were very effective
and we had tendency to lean towards socialist camps and US hated Non Alligned movement
when these fighters were purchased they were a good choice for the money available to us, but then we did not really have choice like we do now.
Back then we were fighting sabres with gnats and f16's with Mig 23's. Ww knew we couldn't buy american technology so we decided field larger numbers of soviet aircrafts they had there inherent deficiencies but we had no other choice that we could afford.

Now the change in geopolitical scenario has seen a dramatic phase shifts. There a no sides or camps left in the world stage .... Just Profits.................

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

@Sandy-Nice to know that we have engineers like you at HAL.Can you explain to me as to why we(HAL-Nashik) produce only 15(I do not know the
exact number!) Su-30MKI's per year?Also have we added more composites to the 2011 MKI when compared to 2003 MKI as some say or has no change taken place(Structurally and also the avionics)??