Adversary: That grin on BS Dhanoa's face when he talk about Rafale

[Pakistani Fighter]

Another recent interview of BS Dhanoa.

The grin on his face when he talks about Rafale indicates that either he is unaware of the countermeasures that PAF would take or he is super confident about the capabilities of Rafale.

Block-III with PL-15 or Vipers with AIM-120D badly needed to give a shut-up call to this guy.

When did our Vipers got AIM 120D?

 

[GumNaam]

So you discard the supremely capable electronic warfare capability on the RAFALE as if it is not worth considering when there are claims the sensors onboard RAFALE make it virtually invisible to enemy radars. So, to begin with, you have to 'detect' is before you can engage it and even then the automated and instantaneous electronic warfare suite of RAFALE has many tricks up her sleeve to jam/deceive hostile incoming suicide vehicles.

Did I say that? listen bro, su30 was the f22 killer...phalcon was unjammable. isreali sams were unstoppable. But here we are, none of them could stop us, su30 shot down, phalcons jammed, isreali radars & sams couldn't even track us or launch (and the one time it did launch, it killed its own chopper)...my wife's cousin is a PAF electronics warfare engineer and as per him, rafale is an excellent platform, they know what it is capable of...and also as per him with a grin, "don't worry, we got this"! He will OBVIOUSLY won't tell me the details but I trust PAF engineers and Chinese engineers.

 

[Ark_Angel]

Indians blacklisting Turkiye for their own defence requirements or that supports the Western analogy?

It’s more about Setting an example. Any body who deals with Pakistan will be shut out from their Market. MBDA with whom we had an excellent relationship till 2010 barely responds to any Tender. Now Europeans will be even more weary while dealing with us. BS Dhanoa while in Sweden categorically mentioned about the sale to PAF and informal threat to shun out SAAB from IAF tenders. Because in the end Fiscal Power walks the talks. Not a big fan of Swedes anyway but PN was also looking forward to Swordfish as one of their contenders in Jet LRMP req. Swedes didn’t even respond even though they know PN has the required capital available for that particular acquisition. Testing times ahead.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

It’s more about Setting an example. Any body who deals with Pakistan will be shut out from their Market. MBDA with whom we had an excellent relationship till 2010 barely responds to any Tender. Now Europeans will be even more weary while dealing with us. BS Dhanoa while in Sweden categorically mentioned about the sale to PAF and informal threat to shun out SAAB from IAF tenders. Because in the end Fiscal Power walks the talks. Not a big fan of Swedes anyway but PN was also looking forward to Swordfish as one of their contenders in Jet LRMP req. Swedes didn’t even respond even though they know PN has the required capital available for that particular acquisition. Testing times ahead.

Just a few days ago SAAB announced to opt out of submarine tender of IN.

But then they also offered them gripen.

 

[The Eagle]

It’s more about Setting an example. Any body who deals with Pakistan will be shut out from their Market. MBDA with whom we had an excellent relationship till 2010 barely responds to any Tender. Now Europeans will be even more weary while dealing with us. BS Dhanoa while in Sweden categorically mentioned about the sale to PAF and informal threat to shun out SAAB from IAF tenders. Because in the end Fiscal Power walks the talks. Not a big fan of Swedes anyway but PN was also looking forward to Swordfish as one of their contenders in Jet LRMP req. Swedes didn’t even respond even though they know PN has the required capital available for that particular acquisition. Testing times ahead.

That is understood. However, on a side note, just read that IAF chief says that IAF is not going for foreign 5th Generation instead, will start indegenous program for AMCA and then, no more Rafale but surely, more of LCA Tejas in medium weight. I don't take their statements with much value in this regard but still, that may dishearten many out there expecting a good chunk of money from MMRCA or AMCA.

The biggest mistake the PAF made was disclosing we heard their communications. Whoever allowed the release of that info should have a deep introspection into their bravado.

NEVER underestimate your enemy. The IAF has paid for it on the 27th, but we have done so many more times in the past

He also pointed out that the IAF has taken steps to ensure its radio communication is safe from jamming by the enemy. "They won’t be able to hear our communication. Fighter pilots are getting secure radio communication," he replied when asked whether Pakistan would be able to jam the communication with IAF pilots as they did in case of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman during February 27, 2019, dogfight.

Even if we haven't talked about the same; they knew it and would have gone to secure Comm in future.

 

[TsAr]

He also pointed out that the IAF has taken steps to ensure its radio communication is safe from jamming by the enemy. "They won’t be able to hear our communication. Fighter pilots are getting secure radio communication," he replied when asked whether Pakistan would be able to jam the communication with IAF pilots as they did in case of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman during February 27, 2019, dogfight.

Even if we haven't talked about the same; they knew it and would have gone to secure Comm in future.

Exactly that's the point I made earlier that IAF we well aware of there comms and their and ours capabilities. Anyone criticizing PAF for boasting about listening into their chatter should be aware of this fact.

 

[The Eagle]

Exactly that's the point I made earlier that IAF we well aware of there comms and their and ours capabilities. Anyone criticizing PAF for boasting about listening into their chatter should be aware of this fact.

I agree to the extent that Indians will be aware of jamming/spoofing by PAF but having said that, criticism as such has its own worth to say the least. That criticism comes in view of development & changing tactics all around us and also, in an attempt to let the enemy keep guessing which is not bad at all. Sometimes, we have to weight different opinions with their own set of pros & cons.

 

[TsAr]

I agree to the extent that Indians will be aware of jamming/spoofing by PAF but having said that, criticism as such has its own worth to say the least. That criticism comes in view of development & changing tactics all around us and also, in an attempt to let the enemy keep guessing which is not bad at all. Sometimes, we have to weight different opinions with their own set of pros & cons.

Don't you think that when Abhinandan comms were jammed IAF would have known that they have been compromised, they never required a nod from PAF for confirmation.

 

[Signalian]

He also pointed out that the IAF has taken steps to ensure its radio communication is safe from jamming by the enemy. "They won’t be able to hear our communication. Fighter pilots are getting secure radio communication," he replied when asked whether Pakistan would be able to jam the communication with IAF pilots as they did in case of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman during February 27, 2019, dogfight.

Even if we haven't talked about the same; they knew it and would have gone to secure Comm in future.

Comms in Military domain are always secure - that's the first criteria for selecting equipment. Link-16 is one such example for communication/Data transfer in the air. On ground, Military Radios, even Police/ambulance/Fire-B Radios are secure. The frequencies used by Military and Civil forces are known all over the world, and even if Channels are known, and somebody tunes into that channel, nothing will be heard. Anything send over the air (HF/UHF/VHF and other bands etc) is now out of transmitter's control and anybody can intercept that using a receiver - unless its encrypted. Militaries all around the world pay millions of $$$ for getting encryption and security features installed in their comm equipment. In normal lives as ordinary citizens, Security features like secure communication in apps as well as incognito windows in internet explorers are also available for everyone.


So firstly, its hard to imagine that Indian Military is operating Aircraft without secure/encrypted radios.

Secondly, if PAF has mentioned that Indian comm convo has been intercepted after eaves dropped, then this brings in the factor of ability to break through encrypted security features of Radios installed in IAF aircrafts, but that is what Jamming is supposed to do. What else would one expect when AWACS, EW aircraft and F-16 are flying in the air ?

Which radios are used by IAF aircrafts ? which Data Links ? Russian or Israeli ? Actually, Russian Vs Israeli communication/Data Link systems opens a whole new debate.
Where was IAF AWACS? Where were IAF EW aicrafts?

Rafale uses Link-16, the security protocols for Link-16 are confidential and not publicly provided. It also has DRFM, which can store incoming signals and then processes them to be re-transmitted. F-16 has these features already. Why has Rafale become so important for IAF this year- one wonders. Although, yes Communication radios can be different but Data Link is necessary.

Thirdly, the Feb 2019 incident shows that Pakistan Military's SIGINT Capability had been in use before this incident occurred. I am not much aware of PAF exercises, inside Pakistan or around the globe, members like windjammer keep a tab on that. Somehow it seems that PAF had been practicing EW capabilities in its exercises. The ability with which PAF conducted this operation using EW for interception and jamming shows that this scenario has been practiced thoroughly in exercises.

I know that PA's eaves dropping capability has been exponentially increased after Ops in FATA region. Such capabilities were put into practice as early as 2004-5, when communication was being intercepted from enemy in Wana, Waziristsan and from Afghan side. Sat Phones of Thuraya were in use of enemy. Communication issues n caves forced the enemy to leave the cover and expose themselves on peaks of hills and mountains. These same eaves dropping techniques were then put into practice on LOC. Weaknesses in Radio Comm showed PA itself how much secure comm is necessary and Harris Radios were inducted. There were other different kinds of Radios too that were inducted.

Fourthly, Jamming produces noise signals, which are basically unwanted signals, so enemy gets to know that communication is getting jammed. Eaves dropping and SIGINT are different. There might not be any interception in Eaves dropping so enemy wouldn't know but there can be interception in SIGINT, since security features need to be cracked, hacked, decrypted or by-passed, therefore any such action can cause detection. SIGINT is itself a broad term and has many types.

If the event maintained itself at eaves dropping stage, then PAF could have kept it secret, if it went further ahead where interference was necessary, then IAF would have known. Knowledge of being jammed is obvious.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Comms in Military domain are always secure - that's the first criteria for selecting equipment. Link-16 is one such example for communication/Data transfer in the air. On ground, Military Radios, even Police/ambulance/Fire-B Radios are secure. The frequencies used by Military and Civil forces are known all over the world, and even if Channels are known, and somebody tunes into that channel, nothing will be heard. Anything send over the air (HF/UHF/VHF and other bands etc) is now out of transmitter's control and anybody can intercept that using a receiver - unless its encrypted. Militaries all around the world pay millions of $$$ for getting encryption and security features installed in their comm equipment. In normal lives as ordinary citizens, Security features like secure communication in apps as well as incognito windows in internet explorers are also available for everyone.


So firstly, its hard to imagine that Indian Military is operating Aircraft without secure/encrypted radios.

Secondly, if PAF has mentioned that Indian comm convo has been intercepted after eaves dropped, then this brings in the factor of ability to break through encrypted security features of Radios installed in IAF aircrafts, but that is what Jamming is supposed to do. What else would one expect when AWACS, EW aircraft and F-16 are flying in the air ?

Which radios are used by IAF aircrafts ? which Data Links ? Russian or Israeli ? Actually, Russian Vs Israeli communication/Data Link systems opens a whole new debate.
Where was IAF AWACS? Where were IAF EW aicrafts?

Rafale uses Link-16, the security protocols for Link-16 are confidential and not publicly provided. It also has DRFM, which can store incoming signals and then processes them to be re-transmitted. F-16 has these features already. Why has Rafale become so important for IAF this year- one wonders. Although, yes Communication radios can be different but Data Link is necessary.

Thirdly, the Feb 2019 incident shows that Pakistan Military's SIGINT Capability had been in use before this incident occurred. I am not much aware of PAF exercises, inside Pakistan or around the globe, members like windjammer keep a tab on that. Somehow it seems that PAF had been practicing EW capabilities in its exercises. The ability with which PAF conducted this operation using EW for interception and jamming shows that this scenario has been practiced thoroughly in exercises.

I know that PA's eaves dropping capability has been exponentially increased after Ops in FATA region. Such capabilities were put into practice as early as 2004-5, when communication was being intercepted from enemy in Wana, Waziristsan and from Afghan side. Sat Phones of Thuraya were in use of enemy. Communication issues n caves forced the enemy to leave the cover and expose themselves on peaks of hills and mountains. These same eaves dropping techniques were then put into practice on LOC. Weaknesses in Radio Comm showed PA itself how much secure comm is necessary and Harris Radios were inducted. There were other different kinds of Radios too that were inducted.

Fourthly, Jamming produces noise signals, which are basically unwanted signals, so enemy gets to know that communication is getting jammed. Eaves dropping and SIGINT are different. There might not be any interception in Eaves dropping so enemy wouldn't know but there can be interception in SIGINT, since security features need to be cracked, hacked, decrypted or by-passed, therefore any such action can cause detection. SIGINT is itself a broad term and has many types.

If the event maintained itself at eaves dropping stage, then PAF could have kept it secret, if it went further ahead where interference was necessary, then IAF would have known. Knowledge of being jammed is obvious.

And, ignorance is a bliss as always till you’re dead!!!! Now that IAF knows they have been stripped down - US prisons style- it’s the time to panic for them!! PAF has struck the terror of “uncertainty” into their Hindutva mindsets!!! And, the “Whites” would definitely fest on “Natives” wealth!! Yet, they will remain unsure to a level of paranoid!!! Pak has been in a "dire straits" to buy this time.....

The following Turkish birds are being developed specifically for SIGINT purposes:

 

[TsAr]

Comms in Military domain are always secure - that's the first criteria for selecting equipment. Link-16 is one such example for communication/Data transfer in the air. On ground, Military Radios, even Police/ambulance/Fire-B Radios are secure. The frequencies used by Military and Civil forces are known all over the world, and even if Channels are known, and somebody tunes into that channel, nothing will be heard. Anything send over the air (HF/UHF/VHF and other bands etc) is now out of transmitter's control and anybody can intercept that using a receiver - unless its encrypted. Militaries all around the world pay millions of $$$ for getting encryption and security features installed in their comm equipment. In normal lives as ordinary citizens, Security features like secure communication in apps as well as incognito windows in internet explorers are also available for everyone.


So firstly, its hard to imagine that Indian Military is operating Aircraft without secure/encrypted radios.

Secondly, if PAF has mentioned that Indian comm convo has been intercepted after eaves dropped, then this brings in the factor of ability to break through encrypted security features of Radios installed in IAF aircrafts, but that is what Jamming is supposed to do. What else would one expect when AWACS, EW aircraft and F-16 are flying in the air ?

Which radios are used by IAF aircrafts ? which Data Links ? Russian or Israeli ? Actually, Russian Vs Israeli communication/Data Link systems opens a whole new debate.
Where was IAF AWACS? Where were IAF EW aicrafts?

Rafale uses Link-16, the security protocols for Link-16 are confidential and not publicly provided. It also has DRFM, which can store incoming signals and then processes them to be re-transmitted. F-16 has these features already. Why has Rafale become so important for IAF this year- one wonders. Although, yes Communication radios can be different but Data Link is necessary.

Thirdly, the Feb 2019 incident shows that Pakistan Military's SIGINT Capability had been in use before this incident occurred. I am not much aware of PAF exercises, inside Pakistan or around the globe, members like windjammer keep a tab on that. Somehow it seems that PAF had been practicing EW capabilities in its exercises. The ability with which PAF conducted this operation using EW for interception and jamming shows that this scenario has been practiced thoroughly in exercises.

I know that PA's eaves dropping capability has been exponentially increased after Ops in FATA region. Such capabilities were put into practice as early as 2004-5, when communication was being intercepted from enemy in Wana, Waziristsan and from Afghan side. Sat Phones of Thuraya were in use of enemy. Communication issues n caves forced the enemy to leave the cover and expose themselves on peaks of hills and mountains. These same eaves dropping techniques were then put into practice on LOC. Weaknesses in Radio Comm showed PA itself how much secure comm is necessary and Harris Radios were inducted. There were other different kinds of Radios too that were inducted.

Fourthly, Jamming produces noise signals, which are basically unwanted signals, so enemy gets to know that communication is getting jammed. Eaves dropping and SIGINT are different. There might not be any interception in Eaves dropping so enemy wouldn't know but there can be interception in SIGINT, since security features need to be cracked, hacked, decrypted or by-passed, therefore any such action can cause detection. SIGINT is itself a broad term and has many types.

If the event maintained itself at eaves dropping stage, then PAF could have kept it secret, if it went further ahead where interference was necessary, then IAF would have known. Knowledge of being jammed is obvious.

In the book History of Pakistan Army Aviation 1947-2007, in the chapter on the operation during the Parliament attack stand off , it is narrated how army aviation used to fly close to the border and listen into the IA comms....

 

[tkmd]

For any military to have morbidly obese loose talking jokers like India just shows how useless of a force they are. Have you guys seen the gut on the new vice chief? He was almost hyperventilating when he reviewed an honor guard.

As to the raPHaaale give me a break. Let India use them against us. I guarantee Pakistan will shoot a couple down and thatll be the end of their rphaaaale bs.

 

[Mighty Lion]

So firstly, its hard to imagine that Indian Military is operating Aircraft without secure/encrypted radios.

Wrong.
The INCOM radios that were present in most Indian jets actually lacked an encyrption mode. Although the BEL brochure mention that they have encryption & secure mode but in reality both of them never worked as radios used to malfunction in these modes. So IAF never used these modes.

But now things have changed, IAF jets have been fitted with latest Israeli SDR (a variant of the same is on Israel's F-35I).

 

[graphican]

No insult intended by every time I read "BS Dhanoa" my mind interprets it as "Bull $hit Dhanoa" - and I have no ethical protest within me calling this guy that - feels like I called spade a spade!

 

[Ark_Angel]

That is understood. However, on a side note, just read that IAF chief says that IAF is not going for foreign 5th Generation instead, will start indegenous program for AMCA and then, no more Rafale but surely, more of LCA Tejas in medium weight. I don't take their statements with much value in this regard but still, that may dishearten many out there expecting a good chunk of money from MMRCA or AMCA.

They will be going for more Rafales surely, but for 5 Gen somewhere down the Line probably (5-8 years) we might see the F-35 in IAF. I might become a victim to numerous trolls here after this post but it’s a reality that we might have to face. The Indians are already lobbying for that here in DC and LM HQ North Bethesda, Maryland. People following their efforts for CATSA waiver here in DC know that since quite some time. I don’t take these IAF people at face value. As far as their AMCA is concerned I do believe it’s going be a lethal Bird with either Boeing or Dassault as their lead partners. Indians are inclined towards Boeing from what I know but have been weary about South Korean American experience w.r.t KF-X program where at the last notch Americans simply refused to transfer 5-8 key Tech required by the Koreans after initially giving them the Green Light conditional to F-35 Purchase.