Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] Development | Updates & Discussions.

[HostileInsurgent]

AMCA Cockpit and Flight Simulator (operational)

 

[MirageBlue]

So you are telling us that India went about doing the complex avionics modeling of the SU30-MKI from scratch just to integrate homemade air to air missile and DARE has an avionics source code for SU30 that is totally indigenous and different from the original Russian one.

Clearly you don't know that the Su-30MKI uses a host of Indian avionics (unlike the JF-17 which uses 0% Pakistani sourced avionics or parts). Most importantly, the Mission Computer is Indian. Got it? That means we can integrate items since we own the IP to the Mission Computer.

Indian contribution to Su-30MKI avionics (developed under project Vetrivale) include
- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor;
- DARE RC1 and RC2 radar computer;
- DARE Tarang Mk 2 RWR and high-accuracy direction-finding module;
- IFF-1410A IFF;
- HAL INCOM 1210A integrated communication suite;
- HAL RAM-1701 radar altimeter;
- LRDE programmable signal processor.

Yes we have seen 91000 liking aour feet and begging for mercy after getting cut in two parts.

93,000 actually.

And they were all served tea and biscuits, apart from watching movies in the comforts of the Indian Prisoner of War camps..

These guys think that shooting down one pilot means that they've won some war or something..lol

had they been handed over to the Mukti Bahini, thousands would've been slaughtered for the unspeakable crimes that the Pakistan Army committed against East Bengalis.

No, it uses the MIL-STD-1773 fibre optic bus. This was widely reported a few years ago. The B version uses the same fly-by-optic FCS and bus as the Block III.

Source?

 

[ssethii]

Clearly you don't know that the Su-30MKI uses a host of Indian avionics (unlike the JF-17 which uses 0% Pakistani sourced avionics or parts). Most importantly, the Mission Computer is Indian. Got it? That means we can integrate items since we own the IP to the Mission Computer.

I know my stuff so don't try to sugar quote things for me, IP rights don't warrant a license to modify it so you still need OEM support for integration. Mission computer itself is no big deal but the avionics models in the mission computers are proprietary.

Indian contribution to Su-30MKI avionics (developed under project Vetrivale) include
- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor;
- DARE RC1 and RC2 radar computer;
- DARE Tarang Mk 2 RWR and high-accuracy direction-finding module;
- IFF-1410A IFF;
- HAL INCOM 1210A integrated communication suite;
- HAL RAM-1701 radar altimeter;
- LRDE programmable signal processor.

I don't want to start a comparison war here but let's just say all the things you have mentioned here and even beyond them were developed in-house. Some details can be seen in the link below
https://www.pac.org.pk/avionic

- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor
- LRDE programmable signal processor
Do you mean systems or new processors were specifically designed for this project?

 

[Vanamali]

I know my stuff so don't try to sugar quote things for me, IP rights don't warrant a license to modify it so you still need OEM support for integration. Mission computer itself is no big deal but the avionics models in the mission computers are proprietary.

I don't want to start a comparison war here but let's just say all the things you have mentioned here and even beyond them were developed in-house. Some details can be seen in the link below
https://www.pac.org.pk/avionic

- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor
- LRDE programmable signal processor
Do you mean systems or new processors were specifically designed for this project?

You mean co-produced or developed??

 

[ssethii]

You mean co-produced or developed??

some are indigenous some have varying levels of cooperation not much information is available in the public domain to quantify the amount of indigenous content. All I can tell you is if you compare jf17 with other Chinese designs you will see the heavy influence of western design philosophy and standards in jf17 which you can guess comes from PAF's involvement in the project.

 

[MirageBlue]

I know my stuff so don't try to sugar quote things for me, IP rights don't warrant a license to modify it so you still need OEM support for integration. Mission computer itself is no big deal but the avionics models in the mission computers are proprietary.

I don't want to start a comparison war here but let's just say all the things you have mentioned here and even beyond them were developed in-house. Some details can be seen in the link below
https://www.pac.org.pk/avionic

- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor
- LRDE programmable signal processor
Do you mean systems or new processors were specifically designed for this project?

Oh is it? So how then did HAL manage to integrate the Brahmos, Astra Mk1 and NGARM that have all been integrated and tested from the Su-30MKI without any Russian involvement? Brahmos and Astra Mk1 are already bought and integrated with the fleet as well. In none of these cases was Russian Irkut involved. And there's many more indigenous and Israeli weapons on the way to be integrated, all of which will be done in house without Irkut's involvement.

In fact, HAL approached Irkut for help with integrating Brahmos but was asked to pay $200 million (Rs 1200 crores) for it. After that, HAL did the entire project in-house with no support from Irkut, all within a budget of Rs 80 crores. Lol.

And that INCLUDED structural modifications to the Su-30MKI, all certified as airworthy by India's own military certification agency, CEMILAC and the regional RCMAs.

How the Brahmos missile got integrated with the Su-30MKI

Modification of the Su-30 MKI for Brahmos integration involved safe stores separation analysis consisting of wind tunnel and CFD (computational fluid dynamics) analysis. Watertight NMG (numerical master geometry) of the aircraft had to be generated from 2D drawings.

Structural modifications had to be within the aircraft’s centre of gravity (CG) envelope and in such a way that they did not alter vibration characteristics. Carriage and release actuation along with electrical and avionics integration was another challenge. FTI (flight test instrumentation) for the operations along with missile system software modifications also had to be undertaken. All this was done by a consortium of Indian industry led by HAL.

..
Many other agencies like RCMA, DGAQA, CEMILAC, NAL, AST, SDI, MSQAA, NEUCON, and Zeus Numerix worked together on this project.

Obviously you won't wanna start a comparison war here since there is nothing to compare. There is no real in-house capabilities to develop avionics from scratch in Pakistan and that's a fact. Taking existing items and tinkering around with them is basically all there is. All of the items that are listed on that page are from existing foreign OEMs in China and Italy and either being co-produced under license or simply repaired and maintained under ToT. If you wanna boast about that, well what can I say?

Only a person who has no clue about how important the Mission Computer is will say things like "mission computer is itself no big deal". If it was no big deal, pray tell me why the JF-17 doesn't have a Pakistani designed Mission Computer along with the associated software?

Just to call you out- what is the Military Airworthiness Certification agency or body in Pakistan for avionics, systems or other aviation designs, without which no development is really even feasible?

 

[MirageBlue]

Combining Astra missile with Su-30 is impressive. Done so quickly as well. Does anyone know if Russians provided source codes for weapons control for MKI? China took many years and a few maths geniuses to break the codes because the Russians wouldn't allow integration of PL-12 missiles with Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2. Actually took many years to do without codes.

I wonder if this can be done with new Meteor missiles and India's own fighters which are not from France. Or Astra developed with integration from beginning with approval from Russia?

Source codes would have been required if the Su-30MKI's Mission Computer was Russian. But in fact, the Su-30MKI's Mission Computer (and also that of the Su-30MKA and MKM) is HAL designed and built. Which means that interfacing the pylons with the MC is doable without any Russian support.

Not just Astra, the Brahmos, NG-ARM (Rudram 1) were also integrated similarly, with the Brahmos requiring extensive structural modifications, all of which were done in India without Russian support. There are many more indigenous weapons also in the pipeline, including SAAW, Rudram 2 and 3, Garuthma and Garuda.

Doesn't matter because the centuries old tradition will continue. Enjoy.

Oh we'll enjoy for sure. Worry about where your beloved nation is heading..all the indicators point to only one direction..may be becoming another state of China would be the best solution, after all you guys look to them for everything anyway. lol.

 

[ssethii]

Oh is it? So how then did HAL manage to integrate the Brahmos, Astra Mk1 and NGARM that have all been integrated and tested from the Su-30MKI without any Russian involvement? Brahmos and Astra Mk1 are already bought and integrated with the fleet as well. In none of these cases was Russian Irkut involved. And there's many more indigenous and Israeli weapons on the way to be integrated, all of which will be done in house without Irkut's involvement.

In fact, HAL approached Irkut for help with integrating Brahmos but was asked to pay $200 million (Rs 1200 crores) for it. After that, HAL did the entire project in-house with no support from Irkut, all within a budget of Rs 80 crores. Lol.

And that INCLUDED structural modifications to the Su-30MKI, all certified as airworthy by India's own military certification agency, CEMILAC and the regional RCMAs.

This brings us to my original question from where our discussion began, do you have source codes for Mission and Weapon Computer(s) which is different from OEM basically another version altogether?
If so, why just stop at the weapon integration why not update the radar and other outdated electronics following the Chinese path of developing the ultimate flanker, or you were somehow able to arm-twist OEM to expose the source codes as part of an offset to another defense procurement.

Obviously you won't wanna start a comparison war here since there is nothing to compare. There is no real in-house capabilities to develop avionics from scratch in Pakistan and that's a fact. Taking existing items and tinkering around with them is basically all there is. All of the items that are listed on that page are from existing foreign OEMs in China and Italy and either being co-produced under license or simply repaired and maintained under ToT. If you wanna boast about that, well what can I say?

Only a person who has no clue about how important the Mission Computer is will say things like "mission computer is itself no big deal". If it was no big deal, pray tell me why the JF-17 doesn't have a Pakistani designed Mission Computer along with the associated software?

Just to call you out- what is the Military Airworthiness Certification agency or body in Pakistan for avionics, systems or other aviation designs, without which no development is really even feasible?

If you so vehemently keep underestimating us you will keep getting surprises from our side.

 

[dr.knowhow]

KAI KFX was started in 1999. AMCA was started in 2009-10

Metal cutting for both AMCA and Mk2 has started. Tenders for cockpit systems for AMCA were out last year.

No, preliminary design of KF-X was started in 2010 and AMCA in 2011.
Then it was delayed due to various feasibility studies between 2012 ~ 2015. System development started in 2015.




Also, I'd like to ask the Indian members if the plan to develop and manufacture 2 NGTD before EMD phase is scrapped.

IIRC there were some mentioning about NGTD until 2018~2019 but in 2020 DefExpo it was revealed that ADA's plan is to roll out AMCA prototypes in 2024 and to mass produced from 2031. This should mean that they are not building any NGTD and just going straight into EMD phase right?

 

[MirageBlue]

No, preliminary design of KF-X was started in 2010 and AMCA in 2011.
Then it was delayed due to various feasibility studies between 2012 ~ 2015. System development started in 2015.




Also, I'd like to ask the Indian members if the plan to develop and manufacture 2 NGTD before EMD phase is scrapped.

IIRC there were some mentioning about NGTD until 2018~2019 but in 2020 DefExpo it was revealed that ADA's plan is to roll out AMCA prototypes in 2024 and to mass produced from 2031. This should mean that they are not building any NGTD and just going straight into EMD phase right?

I believe that the 2 prototypes that are being referred to are the NG-TD prototypes. They will lead to the Production Standard prototypes that will establish the baseline before production is initiated.

The AMCA is a lot riskier, engineering and program schedule wise due to the number of new technologies that are being attempted. There will be Technology Demonstrators that will need to prove those 5th gen technologies followed by Production Standard prototypes before it will go anywhere near entering production.

 

[The Raven]

For all the barking done by indian slumdogs about "indigenous" they have no results to show for it - this is the single most fundamental difference between the mindsets of the Pakistani and indian military establishments.

The indians found out the hard way about attempting a completely indigenous fighter, and yet needed "consultancy" from Dassault for the airframe, LockMart for the FCS, radar and avionics from IAI, and weapons from Russia. And that's not to even mention the joke that was, and still is, the kaveri engine. But this is reflected across their entire "indigenous" defence products - the akash is a licence copy of the outdated Soviet era SA-6, their ALH is nothing but a spruced up MBB BK 117, the Brahmos is revamped Soviet AShM, and even their "indigenous" cruise missile has a Russian engine.

The indian approach to defence development is one of reinventing the wheel as an academic exercise to employ a large number babus in poor fitting brown suites. They have the luxury of the entire global defence market at their disposal and can acquire pretty much whatever they like, and can afford the time and money to attempt to reinvent the wheel. But as was shown in 2019, they have very little to show for it, especially when you don't even know how to effectively use the equipment you already have, as demonstrated by not even knowing how to properly programme their Spice SOWS with the correct terrain data. Their so called "Raptor of the East" beat a hasty retreat, while their recently upgraded M2Ks all of a sudden developed "technical issues" all at the same time, and their so called "indigenous" fighters and AWAC were not even in the picture.

In contrast, the Pakistani establishment does not have the time or money as a luxury when it comes to home grown defence capability. Historically, the main challenges facing the Pakistani defence establishment has been, and still is, the imposition of sanctions - something which the indians have never really faced to the same degree. The main priority of the Pakistani armed forces is to ensure sanction proof supply chains and defence systems, which has led to mainly ToT, local manufacture, joint development programmes, and focused on actual results, i.e. the rapid development and deployment of defence systems. That's amply demonstrated by the JF-17, the Babur cruise missile, as well as the Raad SOW. Only now has the Pakistani defence establishment focused its attention on a holistic approach with the setup of project Azm and the aerospace city and university - and even then no one is delusional enough to think the NGF will be completely indigenous - it will require significant collaboration with a third party.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

The indians found out the hard way about attempting a completely indigenous fighter, and yet needed "consultancy" from Dassault for the airframe, LockMart for the FCS, radar and avionics from IAI, and weapons from Russia.

Just to give yourself a feel good feeling you’ll post rubbish. We do open joint ventures if we need support. Prove your points or don’t derail our AMCA thread.

the akash is a licence copy of the outdated Soviet era SA-6

Another brainfart, even I can call Pakistan as licensed copy of middle east.

 

[The Raven]

Just to give yourself a feel good feeling you’ll post rubbish. We do open joint ventures if we need support. Prove your points or don’t derail our AMCA thread.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131017225618/http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/timeline.html

1987

• Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French aircraft major Dassault Aviation as consultants.

Project definition commenced in October 1987 with France's Dassault-Breguet Aviation as consultants. Dassault-Breguet were to assist in the design and systems integration of the aircraft, with 30 top-flight engineers reported to have flown to India to act as technical advisers to IADA, in exchange for $100m / ₹560 crore (equivalent to ₹56 billion or US$790 million in 2019), this phase was completed in September 1988.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150118032556/http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/lca.htm

Various international aircraft and system manufacturers are also participating in the program with supply of specific equipment, design consultancy and support. For example, GE Aircraft Engines provides the propulsion and Lockheed Martin the flight control system.

Another brainfart, even I can call Pakistan as licensed copy of middle east.

Maybe, but then that would make the cow urine drinking hindutva RSS fascists a copy and paste job of Hitler's Third Reich.

 

[ziaulislam]

Clearly you don't know that the Su-30MKI uses a host of Indian avionics (unlike the JF-17 which uses 0% Pakistani sourced avionics or parts). Most importantly, the Mission Computer is Indian. Got it? That means we can integrate items since we own the IP to the Mission Computer.

Indian contribution to Su-30MKI avionics (developed under project Vetrivale) include
- DARE MC-486 and DP-30MK mission computer/display processor;
- DARE RC1 and RC2 radar computer;
- DARE Tarang Mk 2 RWR and high-accuracy direction-finding module;
- IFF-1410A IFF;
- HAL INCOM 1210A integrated communication suite;
- HAL RAM-1701 radar altimeter;
- LRDE programmable signal processor.


93,000 actually.

And they were all served tea and biscuits, apart from watching movies in the comforts of the Indian Prisoner of War camps..

These guys think that shooting down one pilot means that they've won some war or something..lol

had they been handed over to the Mukti Bahini, thousands would've been slaughtered for the unspeakable crimes that the Pakistan Army committed against East Bengalis.


Source?

Su30mki doesnt use any indian avionics as i dont believe any indians

I am simply using yout logic ..as per your logiv jf17 uses zero pakistani avionics as you dont believe pakistani sources

 

[HostileInsurgent]

but then that would make the cow urine

Even I can make the camel urine jokes on you, would you like it?

I am simply using yout logic ..as per your logiv jf17 uses zero pakistani avionics as you dont believe pakistani sources

It is not about Pakistani sources. Which lab do you have which develops avionics in Pakistan? We have dozens of dozens of labs one of which is DARE which makes avionics.