‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Agnostic_Indian]

I didn't asked from you... did i?

i didn't ask "why are you asking me ?
just suggesting that it is a simple thing and answers are all around you if you really wanted to know.

 

[Patriots]

What is secularism? What's the purpose of this?

You should first look the definition of secularism ... Which I mentioned below ... If you would agree the definition ... Then we will talk further about it ..

Definition of secular
adjective
• 1not connected with religious or spiritual matters:secular buildingssecular attitudes to deathContrasted with SACRED.
• 2 Christian Church (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order. Contrasted with REGULAR.
• 3 Astronomy of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
• 4 Economics (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period:there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular
• 5occurring once every century or similarly long period (used especially in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).
noun
• a secular priest.
Derivatives
secularism
noun
secularist
noun
secularity
Pronunciation: /-ˈlarɪti/

noun
secularization
Pronunciation: /-ˈzeɪʃ(&#601n/

(also secularisation) noun
secularize
(also secularise) verb
secularly
adverb
Origin:
Middle English: SECULAR (SENSE 1 OF THE ADJECTIVE), SECULAR (SENSE 2 OF THE ADJECTIVE) from Old French seculer, from Latin saecularis, fromsaeculum 'generation, age', used in Christian Latin to mean 'the world' (as opposed to the Church); SECULAR (SENSE 3 OF THE ADJECTIVE), SECULAR (SENSE 4 OF THE ADJECTIVE), SECULAR (SENSE 5 OF THE ADJECTIVE) (early 19th century) from Latin saecularis 'relating to an age or period'

Source: Definition of secular (British & World English)

Definition of secular
adjective
• 1denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis:secular buildingssecular moral theoryContrasted with SACRED.
• 2 Christian Church (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order. Contrasted with REGULAR.
• 3 Astronomy of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
• 4 Economics (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period:there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular
• 5occurring once every century or similarly long period (used especially in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).
noun
• a secular priest.
Derivatives
secularism
Pronunciation: /-ˌrizəm/

noun
secularist
Pronunciation: /-rist/

noun
secularity
Pronunciation: /ˌsekyəˈlaritē/

noun
secularization
Pronunciation: /ˌsekyələrəˈzāSHən/

noun
secularize
Pronunciation: /-ˌrīz/

verb
secularly
adverb
Origin:
Middle English: SECULAR (SENSE 1 OF THE ADJECTIVE) and SECULAR (SENSE 2 OF THE ADJECTIVE) from Old French seculer, from Latin saecularis, fromsaeculum 'generation, age', used in Christian Latin to mean 'the world' (as opposed to the Church); SECULAR (SENSE 3 OF THE ADJECTIVE), SECULAR (SENSE 4 OF THE ADJECTIVE), and SECULAR (SENSE 5 OF THE ADJECTIVE) (early 19th century) from Latin saecularis 'relating to an age or period'

Source: Definition of secular (US English)

secularism noun

Definition
the belief that religion should not be involved with the ordinary social and political activities of a country

Source: secularism noun - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online

secular

Definition
› not having any connection with religion

Source: secular adj - definition in American English Dictionary - Cambridge Dictionary Online

secularism, any movement in society directed away from otherworldliness to life on earth. In the European Middle Ages there was a strong tendency for religious persons to despise human affairs and to meditate on God and the afterlife. As a reaction to this medieval tendency, secularism, at the time of the Renaissance, exhibited itself in the development of humanism, when people began to show more interest in human cultural achievements and the possibilities of their fulfillment in this world. The movement toward secularism has been in progress during the entire course of modern history and has often been viewed as being anti-Christian and antireligious. In the latter half of the 20th century, however, some theologians began advocating secular Christianity. They suggested that Christianity should not be concerned only with the sacred and the otherworldly, but that people should find in the world the opportunity to promote Christian values. These theologians maintain that the real meaning of the message of Jesus can be discovered and fulfilled in the everyday affairs of secular urban living.

Source: secularism (social movement) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

سَیکُولَرْاِزْم {سَے (ی لی&#1606 + کُو + لَر + اِزْم} (انگریزی


اسم نکرہ
1. لاذہنیت، مذہبی عقیدے سے بریت، ایسا نظریۂ حیات جو عقاید کی مداخلت سے پاک ہو۔

Source: Online Urdu Dictionary

 

[Sugarcane]

i didn't ask "why are you asking me ?
just suggesting that it is a simple thing and answers are all around you if you really wanted to know.

There is 59 pages of discussion - You jumped in that and started giving your expert opinion to me.

You should first look the definition of secularism ... Which I mentioned below ... If you would agree the definition ... Then we will talk further about it ..

I know that, I want to ask your OWN concept of Secularism and Purpose of Secularism because you have been communist and probably know better because i just read & heard about it.

 

[Patriots]

There is 59 pages of discussion - You jumped in that and started giving your expert opinion to me.



I know that, I want to ask your OWN concept of Secularism and Purpose of Secularism because you have been communist and probably know better because i just read & heard about it.

I must answer you but tell me first do you agree with this definition ... Then we proceed ..

 

[Sugarcane]

I must answer you but tell me first do you agree with this definition ... Then we proceed ..

Yes - I agree with definition

 

[Patriots]

Yes - I agree with definition

Ok … Now we proceed towards secularism & its purpose …Secularism is an ideology … Which either denies that there is a God … Prophethood and revelation … Or declares that the role of these is limited to the personal and inner life of man … And that in the political or social sphere of human life ... Even a cursory glance through the Quran and Hadith is enough to show everyone that this ideology conflicts with the very mind and heart of Islam. Yet in all parts of the Muslim world … Many Muslims are consciously or unconsciously accepting this un-Islamic ideology ... There even exist political movements that have either established … Or are trying to establish secularist systems of government in various Muslim countries:

1- Kemalists in Turkey
2- Baathists in the Iraq
3- MEK in Iran
4- PPP & MQM in Pakistan.

For the purpose:
Some other secularists among Muslims are less direct … Especially those who have yet to gain political power in their countries ... They know that they cannot achieve their political goals with a head-on collision with the Islamic ideology ... They keep their un-Islamic views to themselves … And preach their ideology in terms that seemingly do not conflict with Islam ... They are hypocrites in the true sense ... Secularists tend to be in close links with minority groups … Kadiyanis in Pakistan … Bahais in Iran … Nusayris in the Syria … And Christian minorities everywhere ... Along with these minorities … They provide the linkages through which foreign powers hostile to Muslims manipulate and exploit the Islamic world ..

 

[Sugarcane]

Ok … Now we proceed towards secularism & its purpose …Secularism is an ideology … Which either denies that there is a God … Prophethood and revelation … Or declares that the role of these is limited to the personal and inner life of man … And that in the political or social sphere of human life ... Even a cursory glance through the Quran and Hadith is enough to show everyone that this ideology conflicts with the very mind and heart of Islam. Yet in all parts of the Muslim world … Many Muslims are consciously or unconsciously accepting this un-Islamic ideology ... There even exist political movements that have either established … Or are trying to establish secularist systems of government in various Muslim countries:

1- Kemalists in Turkey
2- Baathists in the Iraq
3- MEK in Iran
4- PPP & MQM in Pakistan.

For the purpose:
Some other secularists among Muslims are less direct … Especially those who have yet to gain political power in their countries ... They know that they cannot achieve their political goals with a head-on collision with the Islamic ideology ... They keep their un-Islamic views to themselves … And preach their ideology in terms that seemingly do not conflict with Islam ... They are hypocrites in the true sense ... Secularists tend to be in close links with minority groups … Kadiyanis in Pakistan … Bahais in Iran … Nusayris in the Syria … And Christian minorities everywhere ... Along with these minorities … They provide the linkages through which foreign powers hostile to Muslims manipulate and exploit the Islamic world ..

Main purpose of secularism is that religion should remain personal and state & others shouldn't discriminate based on someones belief. For this purpose idea came that to remain neutral and just state should denounce religion & any existence of divine etc.
Islam don't have any problem with the Purpose - Being a Muslim one shouldn't interfere in other belief and impartial justice is must. infect 1 minute where you did justice is considered better than prayers of thousand years. In Islam there is another check on state - which is that person is accountable on day of judgement for his/her deeds. So, Islam is far better & comprehensive than Secularism because it not only address the concerns of secularism but added extra check on statesmen and add more responsibility on society collectively, Secularism is very much part of Islam except instead of denounce the religion (which is not practical) it can deliver result by embracing the religion.

 

[Patriots]

Main purpose of secularism is that religion should remain personal and state & others shouldn't discriminate based on someones belief. For this purpose idea came that to remain neutral and just state should denounce religion & any existence of divine etc.
Islam don't have any problem with the Purpose - Being a Muslim one shouldn't interfere in other belief and impartial justice is must. infect 1 minute where you did justice is considered better than prayers of thousand years. In Islam there is another check on state - which is that person is accountable on day of judgement for his/her deeds. So, Islam is far better & comprehensive than Secularism because it not only address the concerns of secularism but added extra check on statesmen and add more responsibility on society collectively, Secularism is very much part of Islam except instead of denounce the religion (which is not practical) it can deliver result by embracing the religion.

I just agree with this part of secularism that everyone has freedom in his religion & no one interfere with other … But with other part of secularism I don’t agree that state doesn’t contain religion & religious people would not interfere in state affairs … State has to declare as Islamic state … And religious scholars have to govern in Islamic State & minorities should have all religious freedom to their prays ..

 

[khanz]

Mr you always have rejected Hadees you were always involved in making fun of Hadees that is what you were doing @Talon do you believe in the man known as Mirza Gulam Ahmad Qadyani ?


Sir those who don't stand up against system of kufr and trying to change it are indirectly being part of it but their are millions of Muslims who in all these countries are trying their best to change their kufr systems Sir and I love them and will love to help them in any way possible

no you don't love them you just called them kufr -why the heck are you calling it the "kufr" system when millions of practicing muslims follow this system and live in these countries without trying to change it ? secularism does not prevent muslims from spreading or practicing islam in any way -you don't even know what secular means.

 

[Patriots]

no you don't love them you just called them kufr -why the heck are you calling it the "kufr" system when millions of practicing muslims follow this system and live in these countries without trying to change it ? secularism does not prevent muslims from spreading or practicing islam in any way -you don't even know what secular means.

An Islamic state cannot be recognized as secular state ... Islam does not prevent to non-Muslims to practice on their religions ... Then why not Islamic system ..

 

[haviZsultan]

An Islamic state cannot be recognized as secular state ... Islam does not prevent to non-Muslims to practice on their religions ... Then why not Islamic system ..

Based on mutazili thought then-that is exactly the same as secularism. No terrorist wahabism imported from 20th century saudi.

 

[Patriots]

Based on mutazili thought then-that is exactly the same as secularism. No terrorist wahabism imported from 20th century saudi.

Honorable Ulemas have already rejected of mutazilis ... Like Quran is a creature of Allah instead of word of Allah ... Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal had competed to them successfully ..

 

[haviZsultan]

Don't know if I posted. My article on secularism raising many valid points:

Many Pakistanis have a built in aversion towards the word secularism while taking an excessive pride in the Islamic Republic attached to Pakistan’s name. Despite the fact that many Pakistanis fail to follow the tenets of Islam and the word Islamic Republic makes a mockery of the meaning it remains a source of excessive pride. Scholars claim that today the country is very far from Islam because very few people in Pakistan really follow the tenets of Islam however very few of them can answer the question whether it's worthwhile to have an “Islamic Republic” only in name. However the real question is do we really have anything to fear from Secularism in the first place?


According to its dictionary meaning Secularism refers to the equal treatment of each and every religious group within the Nation and to the idea that religion should have a smaller role in politics and decision making because when it has too large a role people spend their time over their own separate interpretations of religion rather than Nation building and the tasks at hand.


Many Muslims in Pakistan fear secularism because they have a perverse idea of the concept fearing Islam will be diminished with Secularism. This is completely untrue. Pakistan’s Islamic identity will not be lost with a Secular system.


Will Secularism decrease Islam’s value in Pakistan?


Many Pakistanis continually fear that secularism will decrease Islam's value or worse will eliminate Islam from Pakistan.


The fact is no one is pushing Islam away and with 95% of the population of Pakistan being proud and extremely pious Muslims for the most part it is impossible to even try. Islam will still be practiced by the majority of people as it is being practiced today without any hindrance whatsoever. The only difference perhaps will be that religion will be a personal matter. A person who does not follow Islam devotedly or a follower of a different religion or a sect of Islam will not be persecuted for having his own separate beliefs.


If seen in such a light Secularism is nothing to be feared. We can be proud Muslims and defend Islam as much or even more with a secular constitution as we can by labelling a country ruled by very corrupt people with barely any link to Islam an “Islamic Republic”. An Islamic Republic where the rulers themselves have no link to Islam and others often use religion as a tool to fulfill their personal interests.

The fact is that a country that calls itself an Islamic Republic should have a constitution, laws (that are implemented instead of being cleared by people who can pay bribes), rules and regulations based on the tenets of Islam. A country lacking the Islamic economic and judicial system based on the teachings of the Prophet can't be an Islamic Republic. It's not that Pakistanis haven't tried. If proof is needed one needs to look at Zia's Islamicization. Pakistanis have tried to impose Islam in letter and spirit for 60 years and failed. It's more than time we revised our direction.


The tenets of Islam support Secularism & harmony

“To you be your Faith, and to me mine.”
Ayat 109:6


During the rule of Ali Ibn Abi Talib the fourth Caliph of Islam a Jew stole a shield that belonged to the Caliph and claimed that it was his. He was brought to the court of Ali to settle the dispute. However due to lack of proof and according to Islamic law the Jew was allowed to keep the shield as Hazrat Ali could not prove he owned the shield. This was a verdict going against a Muslim Caliph in his own court. However Hazrat Ali accepted the decision calmly. On the other hand the Jew was dumbfounded as he had indeed stolen the shield. He was quick to embrace Islam and declared that he had lied in front of the entire court.


This was one example of how Islam spread to become one of the largest religions in the World and won hearts and minds. It was due to the insight and tolerance our ancestors had that we got to where we are, that Cordova and Baghdad became centres of learning and Islam spread from the corners of Spain to the boundaries of the far east.


Unfortunately many people in Pakistan do not understand that human rights and the equal treatment of all individuals in the country is more important in Islam rather than a notion of Islamic pride and superiority where labelling a country an “Islamic Republic” is deemed necessary. This pride comes from a past that our ancestors built with policies that we fail to understand today.


The Quaid E Azams Principles


“In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

Quaid E Azam, February 1948


The above quote is the greatest proof that Quaid E Azam did not want a state that was built solely on the basis of religion. Unfortunately since his death the constitution has been changed to suit every new leader that came and the title “Islamic Republic,” untrue it may be has been added along with many laws that are completely out of line with Quaid E Azam's original ideas for Pakistan. If we look closely at many of his speeches we will notice Quaid E Azam was a staunch supporter of secularism with an added focus on Islamic thought and ideology. Therefore until he was alive the Islamic Republic was never attached to the countries name. That happened when Ayub Khan came into power.


Other speeches by Quaid E Azam that clearly supported the message of peace, harmony and equality between all groups whether they are ethnic or religious are stated below.


‘We are starting with the fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. No matter what is his colour, caste or creed is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations….”

“In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims – not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state.”

“[If you] work together in a spirit that everyone of you no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.”
11 August 1947


“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”
30th October 1947


Clearly Quaid E Azam understood that a Nation could not be built until differences were eliminated and people saw themselves as equal members of a single society regardless of faith or ethnicity.


Perhaps if that spirit was alive today Pakistan would not be afflicted with religious issues and infighting between Shia-Sunni, Barelvi-Deobandi, Wahabi-Mainstream Muslim, and the principles of personal freedom would have given way to building a Nation that was the most glorious one in history. Unfortunately this destiny still awaits the Pakistani race which dreams for justice and equality. Many conservatives continuously deny Quaid E Azam wanted a secular country believing that such a concept is against Islam when it is not. Perhaps they fear for their own interests but Quaid E Azam did indeed want a Nation that was Secular or Socialist and gave equal opportunity to all inhabitants.


People try to deny this but the fact is, being Muslims this is not something for us to be ashamed of but something glorious. That a leader who did so much for Muslims, gave them a new homeland and independence, still understood the morals of our ancestors because of whom Islam spread is truly remarkable.


Issues caused by the misinterpretation of Islamic Law & resources used to contain them


The fact that laws created to safeguard Islam are being used for the benefit and self interest of bad people does not do anything great for the image of Islam. A clear example is the blasphemy law, a law that makes an insult to Islam, the Prophet or the Quran illegal and punishable by death. This law has been used against minorities for a long time. However Muslims have fallen victims to this law as well.


An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent.


Another example was the framing of Akhtar Hammed Khan, an 81 year old writer and sociologist by business interests and authorities unwilling to let his development work take place in Orangi, Karachi. He had launched a development project on the behalf of the people of Orangi. His project offering real estate loans on good terms and work to improve the condition of women through education, and access to employment and family planning was not well liked by these authorities. Thus they decided to book him on false charges with the police under the blasphemy laws. He was later released due to inadequate evidence but the case proves how the law is being used to settle personal scores and disputes.


Minorities have many such stories to share as 60% of all victims who are framed under this law are Non Muslims. The law has become a tool for fanatics, murderers and people seeking to settle personal scores yet the law still hasn’t been repealed due to the fact that militants have some influence on governance. Land disputes or personal quarrels are by far the main reason for people to be booked under this law.


Another such law is the Hudood Ordinance where in a case of Rape four witnesses are required to confirm that a rape has taken place. This is practically impossible. However the woman who complains that a rape has taken place is often booked for being with another man while the culprits of the rape run free.


Therefore the Hudood Law became a tool in the hands of rapists and today any woman can be raped. But when she goes to the police to get justice the Hudood Law can be used to frame her, because by claiming that she has been raped she also admits that she has been with another man and committed Zinah. Some figures claim that in the year 1979 there were only 70 women in Pakistani jails. A decade later, in 1988, this figure had risen to 6000 and over 80% of the women in prison were there because of these laws. It is said many more women do not even report rapes in fear of being persecuted due to this law.


Is Pakistan really Islamic?
Better to have a Secular constitution than Islam only in name


There is no doubt that our leaders found us a land that was a safe haven for Muslims and gave us freedom to make our own decisions without the fear of suffering biased treatment for the faith we followed. However the question today is how much Islam is being followed in the country?

For instance the Quran states:

“Keep yourselves away from bribes because it is kufr and one who receives them will never smell the scent of paradise”.

The fact is in Pakistan taking and giving bribes is so common that even a noble person can hardly live without paying one. Some honourable folk still struggle on but their lives are much more difficult. If a person has money it is a possibility he has given or taken a bribe at least once. Unfortunately the entire bureaucracy is at the forefront of this rot. Justice is sold and witnesses can be bought.


On the other hand while drinking is not allowed and a license is required in order to drink in Pakistan, people who want to drink do so with impunity and with no fear of being punished. The law is not even being implemented while if a drunkard happens to get caught a simple bribe wins back the persons freedom. On the other hand while adultery is considered a punishable law under the constitution it is practiced by many people in the country without any fear of punishment. The same goes for many other laws. It is virtually impossible to implement these laws and it costs resources to do so.


The fact is many laws related to Islam exist in Pakistan but they are there only in name. They are either being misused by people for their own interests or they are not implemented and people who commit heinous crimes are allowed to go free because of them, without any fear of punishment while the innocent are framed. Particularly, the law simply does not apply to government officials who can flout any rule because of their influence and power.


The real question for Pakistan today is whether it is sensible to have a false, broken and corrupt “Islamic Republic” in name or it is better to have a secular constitution that guarantees freedom to everyone and ensures that there are no vaguely addressed laws that make a mockery of our Religion and are misused for the benefit of a few criminals.

http://www.havisultan.com/index.php...tid=64:pakistan-theology-a-religion&Itemid=71

Secularism is not an anti-Islamic concept. Our scholars, our theologians once promoted it and it was the reason we conquered. Initially only 5% of muslim population captured the rest. Secularism was a must to ensure equal treatment.

 

[Zarvan]

no you don't love them you just called them kufr -why the heck are you calling it the "kufr" system when millions of practicing muslims follow this system and live in these countries without trying to change it ? secularism does not prevent muslims from spreading or practicing islam in any way -you don't even know what secular means.

Sir if the system is not according to Islam the system is kufr sir and those who are not trying to change it are being part of that kufr Sir we have to change that system even if we have to give our life for that

I know that - but you are not getting the point. My point is even in Shahih Hadith there are Hadiths (like i quoted) which aren't 100% of Muhammad SAW words, there is addition or subtraction. For example 3 different things exists in books of Hadith

1. "I am leaving for you two things that you must uphold strongly; the Quran and my Sunnah"
2. "I am leaving for you two things that you must uphold strongly; the Quran and my family"
3. "I am leaving for you the Quran, You shall uphold it strongly."

Sir their are Sir their is not much differnece and also hadees matter on occasion or what person he is dealing with Sir but when it comes it is for every one

 

[Federer]

What is secularism? What's the purpose of this?

Secularism is Christianity without Church.