‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[livingdead]

Well - If you ask Super Muslim than yes - Quran is very difficult and you need to read dozens of books to understand it but if you ask me "Muslim by name" than Quran is very easy and anyone with commonsense can understand it. You can try it to check either it's easy or difficult.

I tried to read king jame's bible (well was forced by a christian friend who claimed that I will discover true god .. could not go beyond 3 pages).. I will not try quran..
its very difficult for a person of different heritage/culture to get another culture's religious text, by reading it..

And what about the layers of subtext that quran allegededly contains, how an ordinary person like me will ever get that.. what if I take things literally and do something terrible in the view that if it is written in quran, it must be right?

 

[Sugarcane]

I tried to read king jame's bible (well was forced by a christian friend who claimed that I will discover true god .. could not go beyond 3 pages).. I will not try quran..
its very difficult for a person of different heritage/culture to get another culture's religious text, by reading it..

And what about the layers of subtext that quran allegededly contains, how an ordinary person like me will ever get that.. what if I take things literally and do something terrible in the view that if it is written in quran, it must be right?

Well - That's up to you, I am not forcing you - I just said try yourself instead of asking. anyway below are the verses regarding veil which you asked, I am directly quoting what's written in Quran - so, you can draw conclusion as per your intellect

“O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)


“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

Below one you must not assume that it's only for prophet - It's for guidance for believers
“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

 

[Dubious]

I dont believe you. I have never read quran, but I have observed many debates among people here who can post a quote on demand. Most such debate do not reach any logical end.
You can go through many thread on pdf where people on both (or multiple views) arguing with quote pe quote.. now I know you are itching to say what you think to be right on any issue is crystal clear (and wonder how people can miss it.. are they stupid).. but I can assure you.. it is hardly that simple.
Take any issue.. say does islam require women to wear hijab for example (plz dont answer and dont post random quote.. its just an example of a divided verdict.. )


supplementary text: hadith?
expert opinion: mullah?

@LoveIcon just talked about hadith...

mullah? lolz if you read MOST of our replies MOST of us MUSLIMS hate mullahs!

When you have NEVER read the QURAN how can you ASSURE me of anything regarding it?

 

[livingdead]

^^^ you still did not get my point, there are others who will post 3 other quotes who can be construed to imply the opposite.
I am sure you feel its quite clear what you are supposed to do.. except that.. it is not...

 

[Dubious]

Proposal - the law is perfect
Proof - 1500 years of failure
Assumption - the law is perfect
Conclusion - the law is perfect

REAL conclusion - islamists are all Zarvan in varying degree.

Proposal - the law is perfect
Proof - 1500 years of failure
Assumption - the law is perfect
Conclusion - the law is perfect

REAL conclusion - islamists are all Zarvan in varying degree.

You are funny

proposal: law is perfect
experiment: PERSON FAILs
BLAME: LAW because person is dead so cant resurrect him and blame him

 

[livingdead]

@LoveIcon just talked about hadith...

mullah? lolz if you read MOST of our replies MOST of us MUSLIMS hate mullahs!

When you have NEVER read the QURAN how can you ASSURE me of anything regarding it?

I cannot assure anything about quran (in the sense.. I cannot claim something to be islamic.. if I do, I would be referring to somebody else's view.. or mainstream view)
Did I write anything that even suggests I know the contents?

Whether you hate mullah is not the point..again its not about you.. its about necessity... most ordinary people need to be told what are 'do and donts of islam'. they are scared to death(?) that one mistake and they are tandoori in hell.

We all hate paying accountants and tax lawers.. but do we need them, yes we do...
If cant do my taxes, does it mean I am stupid.. probably. or it might mean taxation system is too compicated for ordinary folks... and we all fear HMRC/IRS

 

[Dubious]

^^^ you still did not get my point, there are others who will post 3 other quotes who can be construed to imply the opposite.
I am sure you feel its quite clear what you are supposed to do.. except that.. it is not...

THERE ARE OTHERS...There are people in Hinduism who say they worship 1 god then there are people like Krait who will say Hinduism has thousands of god...who is right?

That is the problem...You always go to people not the law

We are talking about the law not the people

I cannot assure anything about quran (in the sense.. I cannot claim something to be islamic.. if I do, I would be referring to somebody else's view.. or mainstream view)
Did I write anything that even suggests I know the contents?

Nope but your sentence shows that you can assure me that the quran is not simple WITHOUT reading it!

I quoted you!

 

[Sugarcane]

^^^ you still did not get my point, there are others who will post 3 other quotes who can be construed to imply the opposite.
I am sure you feel its quite clear what you are supposed to do.. except that.. it is not...

Yeah - I know that and those Quote will not be from Quran but Hadiths or accounts of someone and If you check my posts i am fighting on same thing with my fallow Muslims.

 

[Dubious]

I tried to read king jame's bible (well was forced by a christian friend who claimed that I will discover true god .. could not go beyond 3 pages).. I will not try quran..
its very difficult for a person of different heritage/culture to get another culture's religious text, by reading it..

And what about the layers of subtext that quran allegededly contains, how an ordinary person like me will ever get that.. what if I take things literally and do something terrible in the view that if it is written in quran, it must be right?

That is not difficult to read it it is you do not want to read it!

even wiki can give you a simple idea!

Muslims believe in the Qur'an as a revelation given in Arabic from God. Translations into other languages are considered[citation needed] to be interpretations of the meanings and not authentic versions of the Quran.
Arabic:
بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيم
الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِين
الرَّحمـنِ الرَّحِيم
مَـالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّين
إِيَّاك نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِين
اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيم
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّين
Transliteration:
Bismillāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm
Al ḥamdu lillāhi rabbi l-ʿālamīn
Ar raḥmāni r-raḥīm
Māliki yawmi d-dīn
Iyyāka naʿbudu wa iyyāka nastaʿīn
Ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭa al-mustaqīm
Ṣirāṭa al-laḏīna anʿamta ʿalayhim ġayri l-maġḍūbi ʿalayhim walā ḍ-ḍāllīn
Translation:
In the name of God, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
All praise and thanks is for to God, [The] Creator, Owner, Sustainer of the Worlds.
The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful.
Owner of the Day of Recompense.
You alone do we worship and You alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the Straight Path.
The path of those whom Your blessings are upon, not of those who You have cursed nor of those who have gone astray.

How difficult was that?

 

[Sugarcane]

You are funny

proposal: law is perfect
experiment: PERSON FAILs
BLAME: LAW because person is dead so cant resurrect him and blame him

No -
Proposal: Guidance was provided (not Laws)
Experiment: Laws created by twisting the guidance to achieve objectives
Blame: Guide for failure of the laws which he has not made

 

[livingdead]

THERE ARE OTHERS...There are people in Hinduism who say they worship 1 god then there are people like Krait who will say Hinduism has thousands of god...who is right?

That is the problem...You always go to people not the law

We are talking about the law not the people



Nope but your sentence shows that you can assure me that the quran is not simple WITHOUT reading it!

I quoted you!

Hinduism is not clear about 1 god or multiple gods, I agree, and people are free to believe whatever they want. In real life the fall out of that is, at worst an innocent argument about gods over tea or in my case.. beer..
That is not the case in islamic world, where everybody should believe the same(else will be called non muslims) and that can lead to violence...
which is why it is imperative to have simpler easy to understand quran.

I dont need to read it myself... I can pretty well judge from the arguments here that in many matters which muslim hold to be absolutely important to them, there are opposite views.
Asking me to read quran before arriving at above conclusion( which can be done without reading), is actually an evasive tactic.. because very smart and intelligent person like zakir naik who spent his whole life reading it sometimes gets it wrong... (according to his opponents of different quranic view)

I am pretty cool if both sides think its okey for other side to live with his interpretation..

 

[livingdead]

That is not difficult to read it it is you do not want to read it!

even wiki can give you a simple idea!



How difficult was that?

That is intellectual dishonesty, that is not entire quran, I can post random verse of geeta to suggest it is easy to understand.. without context you wont get it. And to get context you either need to be of same heritage( people surrounding you have told some of the things which will help you) or need a teacher.

we are arguing and killing each other on difference of opinion which can even arise with a simple wrong translation from arabic (or two different translations with different interpretation), not about the above verse...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

secular doesnt mean atheist....some emotionals dont understand that fact

by the way COAS (retd.) Gen. Musharaf was a self-proclaimed secularist wasn't he? As was our Quaid e Azam.

 

[Zarvan]

And hence we conclude that your understanding of Islam is being misled as your condition is that you are unable to explain any of your arguments beyond an initial tagline.

Yes, you are either with Islam or with Kufr.. but that does not mean that being a Muslim you ignore the dying or starving Kafir. It the literal translation of Bismillah-Ar-Rehman Ar-Rahim..
"Benificiant/Gracious" and "Merciful".
It is the basic lack of understanding of even this that has Muslims still wondering why on earth Allah has rewarded the west will all the progress while they still rot even when having all the bounties on earth.
The Graciousness of God has NOTHING to do with Muslims.. as it is for all Mankind.. and he rewards all those who call to him and work hard..
Only the Mercy which is for the hereafter is reserved for Muslims.. but then that is a different debate.

The same principle applies to the Islamic state when it comes to its Welfare and Justice and services.
The Islamic state cannot be secular because its ideals are inspired by the Quran and Sunnah.
However, a secular attitude towards issues such as employment.. welfare and others can be adopted SINCE.. these issues require an Islamic state to be impartial and irreligious in judgement.
Which means that an Islamic state shall not discriminate against another religion when it comes to their welfare and rights.
Those confused with the concept of Dhimmis and Jizya will always bring objections.. but do not realize that it is nothing more than tax and the equivalent of what is Zakat for Muslims. Infact, it is originally intended to be MORE lenient on non-Muslims within a Muslim state than on Muslims as they are considered to be a minority and under protection.

How Islamic states are implemented and how some states that claim to be Islamic are in reality are two different things.
Many of these western "secular" states actually embody principles of fairness and equality that were part and parcel of the initial implementation of an Islamic state.

Sir you didn't understood one single point which I said Sir not one single point first understand what I said than reply me Sir Kafirs can live in Muslim societies and they have buy even land to built their place of worship their marriage and other matters like divorce and some other matters will be decided according to their religion Sir but laws of crime like theft and other will be according to Islamic Law Sir and they will have to pay some tax but they will be protected their places of worship will be protected so first know what is Islamic system before writing something Sir

 

[Zarvan]

Quran is book of guidance not law

No Sir Quran and Hadees are both books of guidance and law Sir and we have to implement those Laws Sir

I am with law of kufur ..... bite me.

Atleast in law of kufur i'll have a say about my future.... and i wont be killed just because "I beg to differ".

Sir your choice we will bring Islamic system even if we have to come through blood bath we will not back off from the system of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW traitors can choose to go to their master USA and eat their ****