Adjutant General Branch Puts a ban on the Facilities for Veterans(VOP)!

[Goenitz]

Side with the public to do what? Badmouth their own institution so supporters of one political party can feel better?

hey are not guilty of a crime, they broke rules and customs of service.

Army should elaborate 'badmouth' and must produce person in front of some army body and formally denounce them.

 

[blain2]

Army should elaborate 'badmouth' and must produce person in front of some army body and formally denounce them.

You mean you need more proof beyond the criticism of the chain of command on public forums and social media by some of these very individuals?

Lately, the campaign has moved on to open incitement to mutiny. In this specific case, there should be no leniency shown to anyone.

 

[Bilal.]

Some questions:

Isn’t the rule for six months (could be wrong)?

Are the rules encoded and enforceable law?

Are these restrictions for classified matters or general opinions?

How one’s constitutional right of free speech as a citizen of Pakistan be curbed by any rule or regulations when the person is not bound by requisite discipline of being in service, as long as it does not divulge national secrets?

@blain2 waiting for your insights on the above please.

 

[Goenitz]

You mean you need more proof beyond the criticism of the chain of command on public forums and social media by some of these very individuals?

""Justice must not only be done – it must be seen to be done."" Anyway, denying even hospital treatment to Veterans, if serves army for good, then let it be. I guess chain of command is way more important than the moral of the servicemen. They must remain obedient till their last breath.

 

[blain2]

Some questions:

Isn’t the rule for six months (could be wrong)?

Are the rules encoded and enforceable law?

Are these restrictions for classified matters or general opinions?

How one’s constitutional right of free speech as a citizen of Pakistan be curbed by any rule or regulations when the person is not bound by requisite discipline of being in service, as long as it does not divulge national secrets?

I don't recall anything about a "6 month duration" for anything. My father retired from Army and has been out of service for years but I have never seen or heard him or his peers and many others that I know in service, to get on a public forum and criticize their own service (this was in the times of Ayub, Zia and then Musharraf where things were much more open). What happens on the inside, stays on the inside and you keep your political views to yourself. So being out of service for a certain time does not give you a pass to criticize your institution and escape without repercussions.

Also keep in mind the benefits are a "privilege" and not a "right". This is a concept understood with great difficulty in Pakistan. You can speak your guts out, but the law does not guarantee your "privileges" to continue.

""Justice must not only be done – it must be seen to be done."" Anyway, denying even hospital treatment to Veterans, if serves army for good, then let it be. I guess chain of command is way more important than the moral of the servicemen. They must remain obedient till their last breath.

Yes, when some are clearly taking a political line (they do not speak for the views of everyone in the army) then you are 150% right (for Pakistan's sake) that the chain of command is more important than the views of some individuals. I know this is very hard for people in PTI to understand but you all need to get this as it is for Pakistan's good (which is different from PTI's good).

 

[Goenitz]

Lately, the campaign has moved on to open incitement to mutiny

arrest them. discharge them. Tell people why it happened. You think public think they really incited something against army.? They believe that it is due to somebody's arrogance. If you call it a victory, does winning look like this? if we can hang on blasphemy, I am sure inciting terrorism or riots or mutiny must have an adequate law.. like UPA in India.

 

[SQ8]

I have no sympathy for retired personnel bad mouthing the very institution that pays for their retirement benefits. If they do then they should be ready for the associated repercussions.

The ones in uniform, god bless, are doing what they must which is to not fall for the stupid nonsense from the likes of Shabaz Gill et-al suggesting troops to mutiny. A moron of the highest order who has no clue about what a slippery slope his tripe will lead this country to.

What I have learned from months of watching this circus play out is that in this hammam, sab hee nangay hain. No need to point fingers at others when there is a crap-load of baggage being carried on all backs.

Sorry if my narrative is not in line with yours. I'm just sick and tired of this holier-than-thou showboating and whataboutism that is prevalent in this country. It leads to nothing but regression and all are party to it specially the ones self-proclaiming moral ascendency. And while this never-ending circus plays out, the country lies listlessly or crawls towards an eventual implosion and the ones talking big will be the first to run when $hit hits the fan.

I was doing a re-read of Warden’s 5 rings model but instead of from an airpower lens looking at it from a generalized warfare(includes media and economic perspectives) and how(and I could be juxtaposing in a flawed manner) it seems that model is being applied to Pakistan.

Who is doing it, using who and for what purpose isnt my focus - just that the feathers do look like a crow in the background

Now, look completely away from the who and just the impact on the system overall. Not the culprit but the results.

Maybe Im a “Hawai batien” or reclining sofa strategist and this is all just verbose fluff to feel accomplished

But we do try @araz @Signalian @Jango

 

[lastofthepatriots]

At the end of the day, said institution belongs to who?

Pakistan

Who foots the bill for said institution?

Pakistanis

Who does the said institution have a problem listening to?

Pakistani awam

And that ladies and gentlemen is the root of the problem.

 

[Bilal.]

don't recall anything about a "6 month duration" for anything. My father retired from Army and has been out of service for years but I have never heard him or his peers to get on a public forum and criticize their own service (this was in the times of Ayub, Zia and then Musharraf where things were much more open).

That is the choice he made and must be respected.

What happens on the inside, stays on the inside. So being out of service for a certain time does not give you a pass to criticize your institution and escape without repercussions.

On the contrary. The constitution of Pakistan guarantees this right and any subversion of this right is subversion of the constitution. Of course not talking about divulging state secrets.

Also keep in mind the benefits are a "privilege" and not a "right". This is a concept understood with great difficulty in Pakistan.

Constitution is the guiding principle of all rules and if the decision is to curb the constitutional right of freedom of speech then it is itself illegal.

You can speak your guts out, but the law does not guarantee your "privileges" to continue.

The contractual obligations are protected by law and there has to be legal grounds on which they can be revoked. And the legal framework of course has to abide by the constitution of the country.

We can’t devolve into a tribal might is right society. Where arbitrary rules can be made as it pleases.

 

[blain2]

At the end of the day, said institution belongs to who?

Pakistan

Who foots the bill for said institution?

Pakistanis

Who does the said institution have a problem listening to?

Pakistani awam

And that ladies and gentlemen is the root of the problem.

Nice reductionism but it is inherently flawed.

First wait till the elections, then find out if PTI wins majority. Once that task is accomplished, then your claim of listening to "Pakistani awam" would be accurate.

That is the choice he made and must be respected.

On the contrary. The constitution of Pakistan guarantees this right and any subversion of this right is subversion of the constitution. Of course not talking about divulging state secrets.

Constitution is the guiding principle of all rules and if the decision is to curb the constitutional right of freedom of speech then it is itself illegal.



The contractual obligations are protected by law and there has to be legal grounds on which they can be revoked. And the legal framework of course has to abide by the constitution of the country.

We can’t devolve into a tribal might is right society. Where arbitrary rules can be made as it pleases.

So I have "freedom of speech" and I commit blasphemy, where does my "freedom of speech" leave me then? I guess I can tell the murderous mob "hey, I exercised my freedom of speech as guaranteed by the constitution of Pakistan!" and they will kindly let me go, right?

There are "repercussions" and there is "responsibility" for the spoken words. So let's not pitch these simplistic, idealistic cliches here please.

I am not willing to buy that its okay for some retired officers to peddle political views and then expect no repercussions. Been around Bhutto and Zia's times and saw things happen first hand so I know better what is par for this course. Causing division and instigating seditious tendencies within the armed service is not okay any which way one looks at this.

 

[Bilal.]

Nice reductionism but it is inherently flawed.

First wait till the elections, then find out if PTI wins majority. Once that task is accomplished, then your claim of listening to "Pakistani awam" would be accurate.

Don’t you think reductionism is when you turned his point where he is referring to the supremacy of the people to PTI’s popularity (or lack thereof)?

It doesn’t matter if it’s today’s PTI or PPP of 40 years ago.

One can take the example of countries and societies we are trying to model ourselves against. No one gets visited by black vigos for criticizing “the institution” there, even if it is unfounded.

The point being we have a choice. We can be a willing participant of the evolution of our country and society or we can be among the ones insisting on stagnation. The younger and coming generation seem to have decided that they want to evolve. And if history has taught us anything, the tide of time cannot be reversed and things always change. That is guaranteed.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Nice reductionism but it is inherently flawed.

First wait till the elections, then find out if PTI wins majority. Once that task is accomplished, then your claim of listening to "Pakistani awam" would be accurate.

PTI is just one party. They came and they’ll be gone. PA and Pakistani awam is here to stay until Pakistan is gone.

Today, Awam made the choice to let PTI represent them, tomorrrow it could be a different party.

The issue is that Pakistan Army needs to listen to the government that is in charge of representing Pakistani awam.

And instead of playing chuttu games like the highjacking of the people’s mandate and bringing in favorable government, it should behave responsibly and deal with whoever is elected by the people like all responsible armed forces around the world do.

Let’s be honest here. The only reason Bajwa had a mirgi ka dora was because IK started throwing his weight around.

It started with refusal to increase army budget, then turning down candidate for dg isi, and then finally for maintaining ties with Russia.

Which COAS or leader of any army openly goes against and refutes the foreign policies or statements made by their prime minister or president?

It’s fucking open treason. Let’s not sugarcoat it.

If Bajwa loves the spotlight so much he should openly declare his dictatorship instead of being a coward.

 

[fna]

PTI is just one party. They came and they’ll be gone. PA and Pakistani awam is here to stay until Pakistan is gone.

Today, Awam made the choice to let PTI represent them, tomorrrow it could be a different party.

The issue is that Pakistan Army needs to listen to the government that is in charge of representing Pakistani awam.

And instead of playing chuttu games like the highjacking of the people’s mandate and bringing in favorable government, it should behave responsibly and deal with whoever is elected by the people like all responsible armed forces around the world do.

Let’s be honest here. The only reason Bajwa had a mirgi ka dora was because IK started throwing his weight around.

It started with refusal to increase army budget, then turning down candidate for dg isi, and then finally for maintaining ties with Russia.

Which COAS or leader of any army openly goes against and refutes the foreign policies or statements made by their prime minister or president?

It’s fucking open treason. Let’s not sugarcoat it.

If Bajwa loves the spotlight so much he should openly declare his dictatorship instead of being a coward.

his mai baap dont like that. so hence the soft martial law.

 

[Path-Finder]

Do stupid shit, get stupid results.

says who? a tooi waal!

 

[PakFactor]

I have no sympathy for retired personnel bad mouthing the very institution that pays for their retirement benefits. If they do then they should be ready for the associated repercussions.

The ones in uniform, god bless, are doing what they must which is to not fall for the stupid nonsense from the likes of Shabaz Gill et-al suggesting troops to mutiny. A moron of the highest order who has no clue about what a slippery slope his tripe will lead this country to.

What I have learned from months of watching this circus play out is that in this hammam, sab hee nangay hain. No need to point fingers at others when there is a crap-load of baggage being carried on all backs.

Sorry if my narrative is not in line with yours. I'm just sick and tired of this holier-than-thou showboating and whataboutism that is prevalent in this country. It leads to nothing but regression and all are party to it specially the ones self-proclaiming moral ascendency. And while this never-ending circus plays out, the country lies listlessly or crawls towards an eventual implosion and the ones talking big will be the first to run when $hit hits the fan.

The problem we face in our society is we have voices surprised by force or law and this is negative is social development. Western societies advance because it allows questioning of superiors etc. we have a madrasa concept whatever the Maulvi said is correct regardless what your opinion is you have to agree or your out. It’s a thoughtless process that produces nothing and hence you have Pakistan as you do.