Achilles heel of Pakistan Army (Gen. Sharif)

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011.
Hi, Reading your post a couple of three times---I have to admit---for sometime with an all American flag---you have a little too much information about what is happening---and no doubt that it is detailed information.

But---then looking at the material of your post----my assessment is that your information is coming from the civilian side and not thru the military side.

Which means---that IF the information that is being received by you is not first hand----then whomsoever is providing the information is fortifying the position of Nawaz Shareef by strengthening the position of Nawaz in the so called talks between him and the military---and that is incorrect.

The shortage of fuel was a drama by the govt. ----we don't even know the rate at which the new del is done---it was all created to make money.

I am with you when you talk about the progress of Pakistan----.

But---the military is not asking him what needs to be done---military is telling him what is going to happen---just wait and see---the drama is folding nicely and smoothly.

Nawaz Shareef---if he had his way---he had no intention of going after the terrorists----but for the U S---he is a better choice over Imran Khan---even though---the military won't allow Imran Khan to negotiate with the TTP----but Mr. Khan is outspoken and is against the U S.

MK - Thanks for the response. My information is as accurate as what's discussed inside the GHQ. Let's go with that for now. Any country in today's world, whether Pakistan or India or Thailand, can never be successful through their military running it. The success comes from dialogue, negotiations, trade, business and all. Which isn't what soldiers do, or are trained for. So civilians is the ONLY answer to growing a country and its economy. Civilians bring stability, policies and reduce intensity. Military brings force as the term military and force are interchangeable.

Expecting a hammer to massage you, is wrong. And to a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. This was said for a reason. So when I write about civilian control and its impacts in Pakistan, it doesn't mean my sources are civilians and they are "skewing" the details in between (conspiracy theory ). All of us have brains, sense, history and context. If someone is lying to my face, I can detect that very easily and majority of humans do.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories around the current government. Majority exist in current or ex-military circles or folks that follow IK. Which is sad because this little group of people is complaining about a group who's made a world of difference in Pakistan's outlook and economy.

You live in the US, so tell me, would you have EVER imagined Bloomberg, NYTimes, Forbes writing positive things about Pakistan's economy and the country in general? I've talked to many Pakistanis, they are pleasantly surprised to say the least. Pakistan was in everyone's shiit list. Both you and I know that. So why constantly blame, conspire and put down the team who is doing something?? And that "something" is WAY more than what has happened in the past 70 years.

At this point, the military is and has been, discussing everything with NS and Nisar. This is AS real as your face if you walked up to a mirror and looked at it. This is how its suppose to be. At the end, the country wasn't made for the military to have kingship in it. It was made for the hundreds of millions of people. Now, that number stands at 200 MILLION people with very strong potential to be a regional power in the next 20 years, if the nation does what its supposed to do, i.e. follow the democratic system, remain peaceful, stable, no terrorism and work hard to grow the economy!!

A few years ago, I went to Pakistan for a meeting. I personally met with one of the Ex-Presidents, and two Corps Commanders in a casual "tea" party type of a thing. Both the Corps Commanders on one of my open questions, said the military is getting out of the habit of being ALL institutions. I can't divulge into that discussion more but the point was, Gen. Raheel wants the military to do what it does the best and keep its honor and good name intact (and some credit goes to Kiyani on this also).

So no, the "military" isn't a rogue institution doing whatever it wants to, and telling NS what to do. You'll always have some generals who'll start things to stir shiit up, just like you'll have bad guys in civilian government too. But as long as the top guys talk to each other, all is good.

This notion of "the military controls Pakistan" is over and history. This should be buried into the ocean. No military can work without salaries, benefits, food, oil, gas and weapons. And those come from the civilian government. If the military runs the country and runs the military, at some point, a civil war would start or the country would go bankrupt and divided into pieces.

You can't start asking men to produce babies and women to grow men's body parts. If these rare things do ever happen, they are anomalies and not the norm. Just like a military trying to run a country thinking it can grow the economy and deal the entire globe diplomatically and be successful!!!

Hi, when the boots starts flyin, democrazy leader start cryin.
Sheesh so much for the ruining 70 + years of Pakistan.
These Jernails are real evil. And even so they are still liked. I am sure they must have some kind of ''juice'' charm in them

I'd love to suggest to you to let your generals try to do one more coupe, and I'd HATE to see the results of that. But the country can't afford it so I'll just silly smile on your posts, showing me lack of connection to the reality. Unfortunately, you guys live in a false sense of security. The military was desperate knowing that under the circumstances right before NS came, it can never achieve parity with India again.

Sadly, on this very forum, there is a thread showcasing hundreds of captured weapons and other pictures of Pakistan Army's surrender / retreat in Kargil. If that's "strength" to you and the "power of the boots"; then you are reading the wrong books and getting advise from people who either don't like you or don't have it together. Its the reality.

The ONLY fix for Pakistan is a Civilian government. One more time if the military comes in, even the Chinese would back off. Don't think you can afford it.

Time to act civil again and let the jingoism go. If you really want to see how reality might look like if these silly adventures didn't stop, google or youtube " Financial crisis in Russia 1994, 1998", and see people in lines to get food.....you would be hoping that this silly adventurism won't take place in Pakistan.
A military trying to act like an Einstein, a Trader and the Economist would result in people in lines to get food as the system would break, no light, no power, no oil, no running tanks, no open banks, no $$$$ and no food!!! That's what an economic melt down and bankruptcy of a country brings to its people!

 

[salarsikander]

I'd love to suggest to you to let your generals try to do one more coupe, and I'd HATE to see the results of that. But the country can't afford it so I'll just silly smile on your posts without understanding of reality. Unfortunately, you guys live in a false sense of security. The military was desperate knowing that under the circumstances right before NS came, it can never achieve parity with India again.

Sadly, on this very forum, there is a thread showcasing hundreds of captured weapons and other pictures of Pakistan Army's surrender / retreat in Kargil. If that's "strength" to you and the "power of the boots"; you are reading the wrong books and getting advise from people who either don't like you or don't have it together. Its the reality.

The ONLY fix for Pakistan is a Civilian government. One more time if the military comes in, even the Chinese would back off. Don't think you can afford it.

Time to act civil again and let the jingoism go. If you really want to see how reality might look like if these silly adventures didn't stop, google or youtube " Financial crisis in Russia 1994, 1998", and see people in lines to get food.....hoping that this silly adventurism won't take place in Pakistan. A military trying to act like an Einstein, a Trader and the Economist would result in people in lines to get food as the system would break, no light, no power, no oil, no running tanks, no open banks, no $$$$ and no food!!! That's what an economic melt down of a country brings to its people!

Hi,

This is the difference, I dwell here and you happen to live miles across the planet.

Oh dear the armageddon which you tell us about, I can assure it is not going to happen !

Who is talking about martial law?

When the work that needs to be done, can be done.

Remember that hamza sharif statement on corruption and mentioned the fearsome stick ( which COAS HAS) that people should not use it, If corruption occurs let it, this is how system works.

This statement alone enough is proof that there is a constant fear among the democrazy leaders to work on time and deliver.

Well, I must admit the approach taken by army is very smart, Working behind the scenes

 

[Viper0011.]

remember that hamza sharif statement on corruption and how said about stick ( which COAS HAS) that people should not use it, If corruption occurs let it, this is how system works.
This statement alone enough is proof enough that there is constant fear among the democrazy leaders to work on time and deliver.
Well, I mist admit the approach taken by army is very smart, Working behind the scenes

I am saying the same thing...so you are saying I am scared or fearful of your Army? . It's the SAME point, I've made in almost every post. You have corrupt generals and you have corrupt leaders. The system should never be broken and destroyed. These corruption and related things can be taken out by the system.

And BELIEVE me, the day wasn't too far when people in Pakistan would have lines, just like in Russia back in 1998. Brain washed brains can only think so far. Allow me to tell you something, your Army HAS NO approach outside of taking care of the terrorism and building the much needed roads. The sane generals ALSO know this is Pakistan's last chance. If you remember reading news from India in early 2000's, the RAW's estimation and many Western intelligence's estimation was that Pakistan under those current circumstances, would break by 2010. It came VERY close to that right before NS came.
So you can try to sound smart about this topic and act like a child. But if you can sit with Gen. Raheel or another loyal General....the real story might be very concerning to you.

Use your head to think, not your socks!!! I think I've given up too much data already so I won't say anything on this topic.
The end statement is, the military will not come to rule the country. And indirectly fingering others, will break the country.
Other parties with much larger majorities won't take 20,000 Alcoholics trying to "change" the government anymore, by disposing off thousands of used condoms every night on the streets. In civil world, that's called an orgy, not a revolution!!!

 

[salarsikander]

I am saying the same thing...so you are saying I am scared or fearful of your Army? . It's the SAME point, I've made in almost every post. You have corrupt generals and you have corrupt leaders. The system should never be broken and destroyed. These corruption and related things can be taken out by the system.

And BELIEVE me, the day wasn't too far when people in Pakistan would have lines, just like in Russia back in 1998. Brain washed brains can only think so far. Allow me to tell you something, your Army HAS NO approach outside of taking care of the terrorism and building the much needed roads. The sane generals ALSO know this is Pakistan's last chance. If you remember reading news from India in early 2000's, the RAW's estimation and many Western intelligence's estimation was that Pakistan under those current circumstances, would break by 2010. It came VERY close to that right before NS came.
So you can try to sound smart about this topic and act like a child. But if you can sit with Gen. Raheel or another loyal General....the real story might be very concerning to you.

Use your head to think, not your socks!!! I think I've given up too much data already so I won't say anything on this topic.
The end statement is, the military will not come to rule the country. And indirectly fingering others, will break the country.
Other parties with much larger majorities won't take 20,000 Alcoholics trying to "change" the government anymore, by disposing off thousands of used condoms every night on the streets. In civil world, that's called an orgy, not a revolution!!!

Hi Know-it-all,

I enjoy reading to your long stories, but you really start to get on nerves when you get personal and try to shove your POv on me.

Please keep discussion civilized, I am not used to of such obscenity

Again, I live here ! I know hell lot better than An American, because I'm the one has to suffer.

Oh should I tell you that how we got involved Us's WOT? after they threatened to bomb us back to stone age?

believe it ot not, Boots are running the show here ! As much as I would love to see the competent qualified leaders running the system. But to my disappointment all I see is Waeras chaudhrys running the system people who have hardly been to school people with fake degree

Lastly, I don't need An American telling me what is best for my country. I know what is best and have every right to choose what I like and oppose what I dislike. As a Pakistani with democratic right !

People were given full choice during PPP era where army had given free hand to public an demcoazy and we don't need to discuss the result. Everyone was waiting for a govt change and a swift operation against terrorism. NS tried his best to delay the operation and to make deal with killing machine, but all failed when there was attack in Karachi airport and the next morning we know jets were pounding militants.

I dont think I owe anymore explanation to a foreigner, whose country has played quite a role in the turmoil of my country

 

[Viper0011.]

Again, I live here ! I know hell lot better than An American, because I'm the one has to suffer.

Oh should I tell you that how we got involved Us's WOT? after they threatened to bomb us back to stone age?

believe it ot not, Boots are running the show here ! As much as I would love to see the competent qualified leaders running the system. But to my disappointment all I see is Waeras chaudhrys running the system people who have hardly been to school people with fake degree

Lastly, I don't need An American telling me what is best for my country. I know what is best and have every right to choose what I like and oppose what I dislike. As a Pakistani with democratic right !

People were given full choice during PPP era where army had given free hand to public an demcoazy and we don't need to discuss the result. Everyone was waiting for a govt change and a swift operation against terrorism. NS tried his best to delay the operation and to make deal with killing machine, but all failed when there was attack in Karachi airport and the next morning we know jets were pounding militants.

I dont think I owe anymore explanation to a foreigner, whose country has played quite a role in the turmoil of my country

1: I am not know it all. I may know a bit more than others due to my age and experiences.....

2: You are suffering because of the wrong choices made in the past. One of my buddy puts it, if Adam hadn't eaten the Apple, we'd all be living in heaven enjoying tax free great life!!! So mistakes cost a lot, years, decades and nations suffer and are lost or destroyed through mistakes.

3: I am not shoving my POV on you. I am showing you the clear picture of the history that you may not know. They don't teach you all the mess that the Marshall Law created in the cadet college do they? or in the NDU for that matter? So someone has to provide the other opinion..... 20,000 or 550,000 soldiers who "think" they are suffering, aren't even 2% of 200 MILLION people. So I am sorry, its not about the 20 K or 550K selfish people. Its about 200 MILLION poor people, from which majority (90%?) has been hoping for a better future. THAT is who is suffering, not you, if you have a generator and luxury to be online and go to the schools of your choice or get into the military!!!

4: NS didn't make any deal. He tries to sway others through negotiations. By your logic, Obama should've attacked Iran (which I favor actually). But negotiations should be given a chance. But UNLIKE IK, NS didn't go support the terrorists and close down the border to stop NATO supplies....REMEMBER THAT and that tells you who is the REAL terrorists sympathizer. Don't compare the current system to PPP or ANY of the military rules. All of them COMBINED could NOT produce what the current system has produced in less than three years.
People have now seen what they deserve and if the 550 mighty men with boots try to take away 200 Million people's future....you'll see a civil war. Smart opinion? let it go like the Army has let it go. Adventurism: you won't get it as People Rule!

 

[salarsikander]

200 Million people's future....you'll see a civil war.

Hi,
Thanks, but no thanks I dont need your advice.

If it were not for Henry Kissinger's threat, I guess none of this would have happen and we would all be living in peace


I didnt know you spoke for 200mn Pakistani, As American

I do not support any political party for that matter.

Joining WOT, It was imposed on us, we were threatened. We suffered from terrorism, thanks to poor throughout US;s invasion we have paid the price dearly.

Negotiation are done with people who have genuine grievance not with ones who are hell bent on destroying you, by bombing schools, marketplaces. Mosques.


Thanks to ISIS US's created monster in Iraq, US is forced to negotiate with IRan, It was complete change in circumstances not that US or jewish lobby in congress did that out of goodwill

So anything that comes from US citizen in advice will be taken like a pinch of salt.

We Know how to deal with what we are facing, Let the people decide who they want. Its not up to an American who threatened my country to bomb back it to stone age to advice me

 

[PakCan]

Just gonna butt in here with my 2 cents... No outsider can interfere without the help of someone from the inside. We seriously need to stop blaming others, specially USA for our own blunders. We need to own up to our mistakes. We need to do what's in our own interests. What did the military man musharaf do? Did he not have the full support of the military? Was he not getting funds from USA? If he was sincere to Pakistan why didn't he enforce rule of law in this country? Did he not support the terrorist party aka mqm? Did he build any major infrastructure in Pakistan? He was as corrupt as any other politician. Was he also with a fake degree? Or waderya or Choudhary?

Pakistan army has no business interfering in the politics, that does not mean politicians are saints. We need to make our institutions stronger and we do that by strengthening them by following the rule of law. Love for the military blinds a lot of Pakistanis and they fail to see the corruption military dictators have done.

Every 5 years Pakistanis will choose who they want to represent them and that process will eliminate the black sheep's from our government. NS and PML N are not perfect but you better believe they are the best we have had in a long time and only way to improve is by timely elections. Military forced Nawaz or not, who gives a shit, he is the Prime minister of Pakistan and this operation is going on in his tenure.

 

[Viper0011.]

Just gonna butt in here with my 2 cents... No outsider can interfere without the help of someone from the inside. We seriously need to stop blaming others, specially USA for our own blunders. We need to own up to our mistakes. We need to do what's in our own interests. What did the military man musharaf do? Did he not have the full support of the military? Was he not getting funds from USA? If he was sincere to Pakistan why didn't he enforce rule of law in this country? Did he not support the terrorist party aka mqm? Did he build any major infrastructure in Pakistan? He was as corrupt as any other politician. Was he also with a fake degree? Or waderya or Choudhary?

Pakistan army has no business interfering in the politics, that does not mean politicians are saints. We need to make our institutions stronger and we do that by strengthening them by following the rule of law. Love for the military blinds a lot of Pakistanis and they fail to see the corruption military dictators have done.

Every 5 years Pakistanis will choose who they want to represent them and that process will eliminate the black sheep's from our government. NS and PML N are not perfect but you better believe they are the best we have had in a long time and only way to improve is by timely elections. Military forced Nawaz or not, who gives a shit, he is the Prime minister of Pakistan and this operation is going on in his tenure.

Thank You!!!!

@salarsikander : I rest my case here. You don't want someone to give you sincere advise, because I am an outsider, that's fine. Here, how about you read the post above and see what another Pakistani is saying. It's the 200 Million people's right to pick and chose who they want. If they made a mistake, they'll correct it in the next elections. Simple is that.The military has no right to jump in without having any benefit, or more sense or the ability, compared to who it sent home.
I'll sit back and watch and let you handle your own citizens who want the country to grow and 200 Million civil lives to matter more than 550,000 Army men. The Army protects its public, not takes over their right to elect who they want to rule over them!!

 

[salarsikander]

Thank You!!!!

@salarsikander : I rest my case here. You don't want someone to give you sincere advise, because I am an outsider, that's fine. Here, how about you read the post above and see what another Pakistani is saying. It's the 200 Million people's right to pick and chose who they want. If they made a mistake, they'll correct it in the next elections. Simple is that. The military has no right to jump in without having the sense or the ability to do anything better for the country, compared to the civilian government they attacked and sent home. I'll sit back and watch and let you handle your own citizens who want the country to grow and 200 Million civil lives to matter more than 550,000 Army men. The Army protects its public, not takes over their right to elect who they want to rule over them!!

Hi,

I dont understand the fear mongering here.

Why do people think that army wants to take over? It wasn't Army who supported who glorified corruption in front toddlers

They are doing their job best, Just slightly different this time. Behind the scenes. Respect is given to those who earn it.

Oh yes, as for the gentleman, He does not know that the Aid that you get is string attached, most of it is ploughed back to US economy through US designated contractors , whatever is left is very little amount.

Honestly speaking after Lahore incident and the brutality Of Punjab govt and police, they can be anything but democratic.

We all are well aware of economic terrorism as well of the royal highness's group of industries.

And yes, I have tagged you in a thread where sadly the current ruling party member was involved, although I am sure this has nothing to do with current govt, but if NS knows democracy he would have forced whole cabinet out ! but then again this is democazy Pakistani style.

 

[PakCan]

@salarsikander, no fear mongering because our current COAS respects our Constitution. My comments are for those who keep giving all the credit to the military and favour it over democratic government.

Even if the Aid was going back to USA thru their own contractors, what stopped him from fixing Pakistan tax system? Or improvement in NAB? Did he try to empower our police? I can go on and on, a lot of these didn't require any $. Instead he violated Pakistans constitution and his military oath.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Viper0011.

Hi,

Democracy in Pakistan is going to come the Pakistani way.

As for Chinese investment---china had walked out on Pakistan in 2011-12. Their biggest complaint was we give you the money and it goes to your personal accounts. So china wrote off Pakistan---.

But blessed be the united states of America and india----that they created a situation in south china seas that china had to run back to its old beloved---the strangulation at SC seas would have been terrible.

The U S had tried to sabotage gwadar many a times---succeeded in Musharraf's time----but not any more---.

You are privy to what the discussion was between prime minister and the generals at the headquarters and that is fine---but it is still the civilian version----. There was another discussion amongst the generals as well---and all the powers of the prime minster have been curtailed----he is pretty much a rubber stamp---so we are going to agree to disagree on that---. My source is also impeccable---everything that has been happening in Pakistan in this year has been is happening as the source mentioned----about Zardari---about rangers action in Karachi---about Altaf Hussein---about money laundering---about economic terrorism etc etc etc.

Nawaz Shareef is a terrorist supporter and that will never change----his law minster of Punjab has been a big supporter of terrorists as well.

It was not Nawaz who told the military that china and turkey have reservations---it was the other way around-. The general told Nawaz---shape up or ship out----. Action against the terrorists will star and if Nawaz is not going to put his signature on the bottomline---there will be some serious repercussions. Nawaz as usual---chickened out---he did not want to be disgraced the 3 rd time---.

The general told the defense minister what is needed and release the funds---normally the general never interferes a major gen handles that part.

As for good write ups in American magazine---no Pakistani gives a sh-it about it anymore---. For the Osama drama that the U S Created---it is going to pay heavily ultimately with Pakistan being totally lost to china and Russia.

The stupidity of Osama drama was incomprehensible----I could not believe how stupid the American adminstration acted by lambasting Pakistan and not coming to its rescue.

What was the big deal about Osama being found in Pakistan---the U S let him escape three times---if they wanted him bacd enough---they would have taken him out on kandhar or at Tora Bora---why blame Pakistan----.

So---here is what Pakistanis say now---what the fck are you going to do to us---so BFD---big fcking deal you found Osama sleeping in that house---so what---.

And the question really is so what----so what now is----Pakistan is lost to china an Russia---and the U S is going to be left hanging with an empty bag. China is going to ultimately get a refueling station in the Arabian sea and a trade out let and so would the Russians---.

So--how brainless has that act been by the American govt---. Damn Libya first---then Syria and then ISIS---if it was not for them---everything was going smooth for the U S---all the middle east neutered.

The bottom line is that Pakistan don't need the U S any more----. Pakistan has just started to go on a different track and the symptahy and empathy that Pakistanis had with the U S has waned away.


So---if Nawaz was so powerful---then what happened with sending Pakistani military support to YEMEN. Why could he not override his generals!

 

[salarsikander]

@salarsikander, no fear mongering because our current COAS respects our Constitution. My comments are for those who keep giving all the credit to the military and favour it over democratic government.

Even if the Aid was going back to USA thru their own contractors, what stopped him from fixing Pakistan tax system? Or improvement in NAB? Did he try to empower our police? I can go on and on, a lot of these didn't require any $. Instead he violated Pakistans constitution and his military oath.

Hi,

How much time did you spend in Pakistan ?
The tax net ahh yes, the economic terrosim by current ruling govt.

When NS left govt in 98 the current account had 300 mm dollar and when he left it was around 15 bn dollar.

The oath the constitution is of nomuse when it gives immunity To people like zaradri from swiss case.

The current nab is under direct control of NS.

WHEN his royal Highness joins the gobt , he make sures that all of his sons and daughter too join the ministries and govt, I dont remember SSG commando s son name. Hell even the retired justice son was involved in corruption at grand sccale , which is why henwasngoing to get baloch ministry or something like that, can't Seem to recall it

 

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011.

Hi,

Democracy in Pakistan is going to come the Pakistani way.

As for Chinese investment---china had walked out on Pakistan in 2011-12. Their biggest complaint was we give you the money and it goes to your personal accounts. So china wrote off Pakistan---.

But blessed be the united states of America and india----that they created a situation in south china seas that china had to run back to its old beloved---the strangulation at SC seas would have been terrible.

The U S had tried to sabotage gwadar many a times---succeeded in Musharraf's time----but not any more---.

You are privy to what the discussion was between prime minister and the generals at the headquarters and that is fine---but it is still the civilian version----. There was another discussion amongst the generals as well---and all the powers of the prime minster have been curtailed----he is pretty much a rubber stamp---so we are going to agree to disagree on that---. My source is also impeccable---everything that has been happening in Pakistan in this year has been is happening as the source mentioned----about Zardari---about rangers action in Karachi---about Altaf Hussein---about money laundering---about economic terrorism etc etc etc.

Nawaz Shareef is a terrorist supporter and that will never change----his law minster of Punjab has been a big supporter of terrorists as well.

It was not Nawaz who told the military that china and turkey have reservations---it was the other way around-. The general told Nawaz---shape up or ship out----. Action against the terrorists will star and if Nawaz is not going to put his signature on the bottomline---there will be some serious repercussions. Nawaz as usual---chickened out---he did not want to be disgraced the 3 rd time---.

The general told the defense minister what is needed and release the funds---normally the general never interferes a major gen handles that part.

As for good write ups in American magazine---no Pakistani gives a sh-it about it anymore---. For the Osama drama that the U S Created---it is going to pay heavily ultimately with Pakistan being totally lost to china and Russia.

The stupidity of Osama drama was incomprehensible----I could not believe how stupid the American adminstration acted by lambasting Pakistan and not coming to its rescue.

What was the big deal about Osama being found in Pakistan---the U S let him escape three times---if they wanted him bacd enough---they would have taken him out on kandhar or at Tora Bora---why blame Pakistan----.

So---here is what Pakistanis say now---what the fck are you going to do to us---so BFD---big fcking deal you found Osama sleeping in that house---so what---.

And the question really is so what----so what now is----Pakistan is lost to china an Russia---and the U S is going to be left hanging with an empty bag. China is going to ultimately get a refueling station in the Arabian sea and a trade out let and so would the Russians---.

So--how brainless has that act been by the American govt---. Damn Libya first---then Syria and then ISIS---if it was not for them---everything was going smooth for the U S---all the middle east neutered.

The bottom line is that Pakistan don't need the U S any more----. Pakistan has just started to go on a different track and the symptahy and empathy that Pakistanis had with the U S has waned away.

So---if Nawaz was so powerful---then what happened with sending Pakistani military support to YEMEN. Why could he not override his generals!

Oh SNAP!!! I didn't know you were this hateful towards the US. Damn. I'll skip the hateful part and will still address some stuff based on the logic. Your logic is SUPER flawed in many places throughout your post. I am not Obama or Secretary Gates (he was there at the time of Mushy and even after), so obviously I can't address certain things with you as they are the ones making decisions and policies. You should write to the White house, if you have so many issues and you need answers on what America did to Pakistan or didn't do!!

1) The Pakistani Way for the democracy to come, isn't through the Military STEALING the power chair EVERY time the system tries to establish itself. When you don't let a child learn, and each time he tries to, you take the book away, but YET expect him to do a PHD???? Really?

Similarly, if a system isn't allowed to run, how the hell the Democracy would even "COME" as per your post??? So, no one's saying that the democracy needs to come my way or your way, we are saying that democracy needs to stay. But each time the system tries to run, a ROBBERY doesn't need to take place on the way and the Democracy is stolen for the next 5-10 years!!! Play fair is ALL everyone is saying. Military has no reason to be living in the Prime Minister or the Presidential Palace permanently. Only meetings are allowed and after which the civilians get to go back to assemblies.

2) The US actually doesn't get a serious benefit from Gawader or vis-a-vis. You have your friends that you've pissed off big times such as the the Afghans, the Iranians and even the Arabs (Oman and Dubai have a HUGE cow over Gawader). So honestly, the US is thousands of miles away, with NO impact from Gawader. Its these other players I outlined for you. Let me be frank and you may already know this, Indian objections obviously makes sense due to the history.
But what's surprising is Iran, Oman and Dubai (UAE) HATE the fact that Gawader is becoming operational. Their mentality is, that "cheap Pakistani labor" we used to use as slaves, will try to compete with us? Both you and I know, how racist Arabs really are. So your REAL enemy on Gawader isn't the US. Its the "conglomerate" of these "frenemies" you have going with a real enemy called India.

So my suggestion for Pakistan as a well wisher is to GROW the country, be a bigger economy and KEEP the system running. Show these fools that you are much more capable than how they look at Pakistan!!!

3) On Shariffs discussion, I might also know a little bit about the discussion between the Corps Commanders meeting, both, before and after meeting with NS. Gen. Raheel was pissed to say the least to find out that Gen. Zaheer was trying to kick out NS (again I might add); and Gen. Raheel's good name was going to get abused.

All sponsored by one UAE's employee Shuja Pasha and back-end support provided from Mushy and Altaf!!!! Shuja and Altaf had VERY good relations, just like Mushy and Altaf. Because of Mushy, Altaf was left off the radar for SO long!!!! And you'll blame NS but will forget who gave weapons to Altaf to begin with and who Altaf always backed in everything (Mushy). And then comes Gen. Shuja and Zaheer, both were tight with Altaf. And you'll blame the civilians for all the mess!!!

So here is the reality. You can take it or be upset about it. Doesn't change squat!!! I can ALSO tell you how many Corps Commander voted to KEEP the system running and then the associated change in Army's officer's code of conduct.....and this wasn't made public. Yes, the code of conduct was modified so no general can take the power seat by a coupe and it would be considered a Court Marshall case in the future!!!

4) Generals told NS on taking action against the terrorism???? lol, you are confusing it with IK right? The guy was OPENLY stopping NATO traffic just to show solidarity with killers and terrorists who in cold blood killed thousands of Pakistanis (in addition to Afghan's and Americans). So PLEASE, either know the entire situation or don't comment.

One more time, who created the Religious Organizations, MQM and all and "weaponized" them in Pakistan? The military did. Who created the "Strategic Depth"??? The Military Did. Who didn't do ANY economy or other growth related work for Pakistan for over 5 decades? The Military.

Now let's start to blame this 50 year mess created by the military rule onto the Civilians conveniently, who've ONLY ruled for 3 or on and off, 10 years or so !!!! I am referring to NS or SS.

Go reach out to your contact and ask Gen. Raheel to explain to you what happened. If you hear differently, come say it on here!!

5) Do you think that Pakistan is SUCH a big deal to the US? Honestly??? It's a small country and with nuke weapons and that concerns us. Otherwise, the law makers in the US would've stopped the aid a long time ago. I think the American tax payers would feel good if Pakistan was to stand on her own feet.

I think that's best for Pakistan and the world. Pakistan can do trade on equal terms, instead of having this negative sentiment all their life about the US. Please do remember, when you take billions in aid (Army rulers primarily) and don't spend it on people, but blame the US for all of the lawlessness, all the lack of Healthcare, Education, Roads, etc, etc, it DOESN'T make sense. The generals have used billions from the US but have abused the US in terms of blaming all their ineptness onto the US like a boogey man.

The civilians don't do that. It was a general who, on one phone call abandoned support for Talibans but still continued from the behind. Speaks volume on the bravery. On the other hand, it was a civilian leader who directly spoke to President Clinton, and then came on national tv and announced that he'll have to do the deed because otherwise, his nation would never elect him. AND you'll give credit to the military on that too

6) Last but not least, NS didn't want to send the military to Yemen because it would have stopped the economic progress. The CPEC would never be completed!!! Here's the inside story, the Iranians had told Pakistan that if they sent the military in, the gas pipeline would never become a reality. And indirectly, they'd start the Sunni-Shiite violence. NS and Gen. Raheel met a few times and decided this wasn't in the best interest of Pakistan. And then the issue was sent to the Parliament for voting to ratify the decision. Remember, it was NS who went to Saudi and calmed the Arabs down. You and I both know that since Mushy's time, Saudi and Pak Military don't have those warm and fussy relations like they used to before. NS brings them closer in the time of need and he said NO to the Arabs!!!!

Last question, if the MIGHTY Military is SO powerful, WHY is NS still in power??? . Just out of courtesy, you have ALL speculations. NO real insight!!!

With that, I'll rest my case as it's become pointless to write on this subject. But in the next few years, the fever of thinking that the military (550K people) are above and beyond the Civilians they should be serving (over 200 Million)...will be going away. We can wait and talk then?

I'll be sure to remind you of it when the next change of governments happens through the Elections / Voting process by the People !!

 

[MastanKhan]

@Viper0011.

Hi,

I am not hateful towards the U S---I am just taking about the screw-ups of the US----actually---needless screw-ups----screw-ups that had no value at all---like the Osama issue.

The reason that military is powerful and Nawaz is still there is because they have learnt it from the U S----many a decades ago read in a book so what if the president is communist implant---the system is setup as such that he won't be able to do anything.

Same thing with Nawaz----he is just towing the military line---the military has learnt that you don't need to be in power when you can control the power---and why make yourself vulnerable to sanctions----.

So---this is the new kind of coup in Pakistan.

As for democracy----there has to be order and rule of law----. This current drama of democracy is a fraud----it is only setup for loot and plunder---a loot and plunder the likes of which never seen before----and that all in the name f democracy---.

See---Imran Khan just screwed up---he should have kept quiet about the Taliban issue---and the agitation he started---instead of being peaceful---it should have been bloody right from day one----he did not have the ballz to do that---just trying to play nice---.

There will be no democracy till all the Nawaz family is hung by their necks on the street light poles and all of Zardari's team as well---from Islamabad to Karachi.

It is an illusion that americans have about democracy in Pakistan----. Pakistan is not ready for a democracy till it kills the economic terrorists and their families as well.---every one of them---father mother son daughter child adult---anyone and everyone related to their cause----and then Pakistan will start towards the road to democracy----.

In democracy---there is no such thing as a child learning---. We have examples of democracy in front of us---they all can be instilled in the society---but first there has to be order restored and rule of law enforced---and that will only happen by the execution of the criminals---those who stole the money of the nation----first they will be hanged---then there is hope for democracy.

So---if Nawaz is so powerful---then why could he not order the army chief to deploy some troops to help in yemen.

 

[third eye]

There will be no democracy till all the Nawaz family is hung by their necks on the street light poles and all of Zardari's team as well---from Islamabad to Karachi.

How will this help ?

Another group of people / families will take center stage.

Unless national institutions are built & nurtured aberrations will stay the norm.