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Accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan

This thread is silent already? and the main conspirators are no longer visible..

Huh man.. to all the Indians (including me ) who made them all say, "Hook line and sinker".. Cheers to you ;)

It is a pakistani forum...we should never forget it and at the same time since we are given the chance to express ourselves by them...we should never forget to erase their misconceptions about india and indians :coffee: politely.
 
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Personally I don't see why it is a problem for the muslims of India to sing the part that is selected as national song. That part is pretty secular in nature. The religious overtures are in the other parts.

Having said that, I also don't see, why this should be made compulsory in schools. Our National Anthem (Jana Gana Mana) should be enough.

And What Is My Issue With Vande Mataram?


Vande Mataram issue is again hogging the limelight and political denominations of all hue are palnning to make a killing. I have nothing to say of them. Such people have been squarely criticized at this blog and elsewhere.


For me the issue is that of an individual’s right to practise his religion and be a patriotic citizen at the same time. Suppose I don’t sing Vande Mataram because it clashes with my religious beliefs. Would that make me any less Indian? Would that weaken my resolve to fight and die for the country? More importantly, as a citizen of a democratic society, do I have a choice to to say no to things that are not mandatory, and by not doing them I am not causing any harm to others? We talk about freedom of religion and secularism all the time but still have a blinkered view of them. Why do I need to adhere by somebody else’s benchmark of patriotism. If we are still thinking in terms of society and not individuals and expect everyone to submerge into some greater-common-patriotism then how different are we from let’s say China or Saudi Arabia.

Does an individual has the space to stand alone and be different in our society? Would we have that in 10-20 years?

As an Indian Muslim I have to prove my patriotism to others, many times and many times over. A bomb blast, no Sir, please believe us, we did not do it, we condemn it in strongest terms. Does anyone asks hard questions about the failure of our intelligence apparatus, about how many people have ran away to other countries after selling sensitive information, about how it has compromised the security of the common citizen? Vir Sangvi writes about our amazing ability to gloss over facts in lieu of our anti-terror paranoia. Oh and these guys are not singing Vande Mataram. Didn’t I tell you, they are unpatriotic. There loyalties lie elsewhere. Come on, let us make them sing Vande Mataram.

Pankaj Vohra, political editor of Hindustan Times has written a piece on the Vande Mataram issue. He seems to have presumed a lot. I would like to address some of the issues he raises in his article.

1.) Debate over the issue is settled:


No, it is not. Had it been so, Vande Mataram would have been our national anthem and not national song. Muslims have had genuine issues with the text of the song and the context in which it was originally written and consquently used in Anand Math. The committee under Nehru in 1937 which Pankaj cites in his article has this to say of the issue:

“Taking all things into consideration, therefore, the Committee recommend that, wherever Bande Mataram is sung at national gatherings, only the first two stanzas should be sung, with perfect freedom to the organisers to sing any other song of an unobjectionable character, in addition to, or in the place of, the Bande Mataram song.”

The Constituent Assembly reached a compromise decision to accord it the status of national song. Gandhi ji advised Muslims to appreciate its historic association but counselled against any imposition. “No doubt, every act… must be purely voluntary on the part of either partner,” he said at Alipore on August 23, 1947. Now, we have the President of the largest opposition party in India saying that it would be made mandatory in the BJP ruled states.

Bottomline: Vande Mataram can’t and shoudn’t be enforced, neither on an individual nor on a community.


2.) It is AIMPLB and mad mullahs again:


Now we are increasingly seeing educated Muslims that do not toe the line of either All India Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) or rent-a-fatwa-mullahs and are willing to stand up and speak out for themselves. I am totally against mullahs rendering fatwas on the issue. Forcing someone not to sing Vande Mataram is akin to forcing someone to sing the song. Individuals should be able to decide for themselves. I have had my differences with both these groups. This is not about them, this is about me.

Bottomline: I don’t really care what is their stand on the issue.

3.) Vande Mataram is secular:


It is not. Had it been so, there was no need to expunge the last three stanzas of the song. People are acting as if the first two stanzas were written by someone else for a totally different purpose than the last three stanzas. It was basically a song meant to arouse the sentiments of Bengali Hindus against the ruling Muslims by using religious imagery.

Nirad C. Chaudhuri writes, “The historical romances of Bankim Chatterjee and Ramesh Chandra Dutt glorified Hindu rebellion against Muslim rule and showed the Muslims in a correspondingly poor light. Chatterjee was positively and fiercely anti-Muslim. We were eager readers of these romances and we readily absorbed their spirit.��?

It is true that the song acquired a nationalistic tone during the freedom struggle. It still does not absolve it of its history. For the right-wing backers of the song, this is just a start. Already there are talks of why only two stanzas, why not the entire song? And Rajeev Srinivasan is arguing “mohammedans in india should follow indian norms. after all, they expect indians in saudi arabia to follow saudi norms.” Not many years ago, BJP government in Uttar Pradesh tried to make the recital of Saraswati Vandana compulsory in schools.

Bottomlime: All this makes me wonder what ‘being Indian’ translates to them and their ‘real’ intentions.

4.) Hey its just Sankritized Bengali, in Urdu it is just fine:


Pankaj Vohra quotes an Urdu translation by none other than Arif Muhammad Khan (messiah of Muslims, beacon of hope, harbinger of glad tidings and a surrendered member to BJP). Being a former Union minister and President of A.M.U. are cited as his qualifications. I have heard about sarkaari poets, we have had our fair share of them. But this is the first time I am hearing about a sarkaari translator. I am not a Sankrit pandit (I read it till class 12th) but I am sure what Vande Mataram would translate to in Urdu. Again, people are trying to take two stanzas, out of text and out of context, and making it appear like well-what’s-the-problem-with-it?

Bottomline: The last thing India needs to progress in the 21st century is sarkaari patriotism.

Amidst all this, I have hope for the future. Many of the popular Indian bloggers on the web have supported the individual freedom position. Many Indians who were not aware of the original text and context of the song and the reason why Muslims are uncomfortable with the song are taking a more nuanced position. The only way forward for our country is the Gandhian position of mutual respect and no imposition. Not singing Vande Mataram does not lessen my committment to my country and I would always fight for the right of my fellow Indians (of whatever religion) to recite the song. Others should respect mine.

And What Is My Issue With Vande Mataram? | Indian Muslims
 
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Before i state my view for info to everybody I am an Indian a hindu and also a brahmin so shower all your curse and bad mouth on to me; but just for the sake of improving the knowledge of many (hindus included) let me make this thing very clear that hinduism NEVER has nothing to do with idol worship (though I am all for it).
The concept of god in hinduism is very complex (to put it in extremely layman terms: He is one who was not born, who has no shape, who is spread in all dimensions and so on and so forth: The NIRAKAR BRAHMA). Now to make this concept understandable to lot of highly educated people even today is very difficult. So to put forward this enigma (god) to the commoner, the concept of idol was developed so that the ordinary people could understand the force behind lot of things (for which there were no explaination).
After all you would agree "seeing is believing"
 
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Some people like simplicity.

Before i state my view for info to everybody I am an Indian a hindu and also a brahmin so shower all your curse and bad mouth on to me; but just for the sake of improving the knowledge of many (hindus included) let me make this thing very clear that hinduism NEVER has nothing to do with idol worship (though I am all for it).
The concept of god in hinduism is very complex (to put it in extremely layman terms: He is one who was not born, who has no shape, who is spread in all dimensions and so on and so forth: The NIRAKAR BRAHMA). Now to make this concept understandable to lot of highly educated people even today is very difficult. So to put forward this enigma (god) to the commoner, the concept of idol was developed so that the ordinary people could understand the force behind lot of things (for which there were no explaination).
After all you would agree "seeing is believing"
 
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Before i state my view for info to everybody I am an Indian a hindu and also a brahmin so shower all your curse and bad mouth on to me; but just for the sake of improving the knowledge of many (hindus included) let me make this thing very clear that hinduism NEVER has nothing to do with idol worship (though I am all for it).
The concept of god in hinduism is very complex (to put it in extremely layman terms: He is one who was not born, who has no shape, who is spread in all dimensions and so on and so forth: The NIRAKAR BRAHMA). Now to make this concept understandable to lot of highly educated people even today is very difficult. So to put forward this enigma (god) to the commoner, the concept of idol was developed so that the ordinary people could understand the force behind lot of things (for which there were no explaination).
After all you would agree "seeing is believing"


Sprint the problem is not what you worship and we being Muslims have no concern what others worship, being Muslims we do not use idols even to make ordinary people understand the god.

we do not worship any image or idol and any other form of idol worship hence the objection over vande mataram is there for so long even before partition.

there are many other national songs why to impose this one on everyone even those who do not want to sing it
 
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Are there two types of Hindus? Those who think that Hinduism is not a religion and the other who thinks it is..? Or those who say Hinduism is not a religion wrong.. Help me out here.

From what i understand, it seems there are Hindus who are ready to put their religion at a lower level...to pretend to be secular.
 
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By the way, some of you are getting way too emotional over Jana's comment. I don't see what's so offensive in calling a National Song a "Silly" song. At least she didn't use that word for the Indian national anthem. If some Indian comes in here and calls "Dil Dil Pakistan" (Which is our national song) a "Silly" song, I'd let it go because at the end of the day, what does an Indian know about our national song anyway?

Same is the case with this. It's a composition composed by an artist. Other people can call it whatever they want, it's only YOU who knows the significance of that song and that's what matters.
 
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This is an old news i dont know how Indians will take it or compare it with objection from Muslims



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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1963529.cms

Vande Mataram not to be sung by Sikhs'

AMRITSAR: After the objections raised by a section of the Muslim community, the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee has asked Sikhs not to sing the national song Vande Mataram on its centenary on Thursday.

" Vande Mataram will not be sung in SGPC-run schools. It's a conspiracy to extend communalism thoughout the nation," SGPC chief Avtar Singh Makkar said on Wednesday. Most SGPC-run schools are government-aided.

The Sikh Community in the country had been asked not to sing the national song, "as it only spreads a particular religion and does not fulfill the aspirations of minorities, including Sikhs, Muslims and Christians," Makkar said.

Shiromani Akali Dal (Amritsar) led by former MP Simranjit Singh Mann has also announced that Akali leaders would go to all schools in Punjab and ensure that no student is forced to sing Vande Mataram .

Some BJP and RSS leaders have called for making it mandatory for schoolchildren to retice the first two stanzas of the song penned by Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay during its centenary celebrations on Thursday
 
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By the way, some of you are getting way too emotional over Jana's comment. I don't see what's so offensive in calling a National Song a "Silly" song. At least she didn't use that word for the Indian national anthem. If some Indian comes in here and calls "Dil Dil Pakistan" (Which is our national song) a "Silly" song, I'd let it go because at the end of the day, what does an Indian know about our national song anyway?

Same is the case with this. It's a composition composed by an artist. Other people can call it whatever they want, it's only YOU who knows the significance of that song and that's what matters.

You cant others to reach your moral high ground. They almost never do actually. If they do, then there would be no riot in the entire world, no distrust, no ill-feeling. All I can say is respect others feelings. Clearly people here know how Indians think of 'Vande mataram'. Then all you achieve by calling it silly is :
1) Hurting their feelings
2) Ridiculing their moral low ground because they feel hurt the reasoning being they dont hink like you.
both at the same time.

I mean, Come onnn!!!
 
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You cant others to reach your moral high ground. They almost never do actually. If they do, then there would be no riot in the entire world, no distrust, no ill-feeling. All I can say is respect others feelings. Clearly people here know how Indians think of 'Vande mataram'. Then all you achieve by calling it silly is :
1) Hurting their feelings
2) Ridiculing their moral low ground because they feel hurt the reasoning being they dont hink like you.
both at the same time.

I mean, Come onnn!!!

I appologize for that if Indians take it as a religiouse song and it hurts their sentiments then i appologize for that.

But my point is that there are many national songs and these are just songs you can not compare them with any religiouse verse or song or whatever you call it.

I havent called your anthem as silly which in my view is the real national song of any country and which is more respected the worldover

In this case i feel its clearly the case that its is related to hindu belief about hindu godess thats why you took it that way.
 
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^ My point exactly. In our view, it's a song. I don't understand Hindi, I can't tell who gets referenced in the song. Neither do I know the names of the Hindu Gods and Goddesses. But overall, it's still a song, not a national anthem. On our side, a national anthem holds more weight than a national song, period. Probably that's why Jana was so casual with her comment. Anyway, she apologized after realizing the gravity of the situation. I think that's a good gesture.

Back to the topic, shall we?
 
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1.) Bottomline: Vande Mataram can’t and shoudn’t be enforced, neither on an individual nor on a community.
Correct. And the part of my quote that you forgot to highlight, highlights this point only. Here's what I had said:
I also don't see, why this should be made compulsory in schools.
3.) Vande Mataram is secular:

It is not. Had it been so, there was no need to expunge the last three stanzas of the song. People are acting as if the first two stanzas were written by someone else for a totally different purpose than the last three stanzas.
By that logic one shouldn't study Aristotle as well. Didn't he advocate slavery. My, my. Burn his books down. Shall we now.

What does it matter what the purpose of the song is, or was, in its entirety. Does it espouse the same meaning, or sense of purpose, in its truncated form? That is question to be asked.

Absurd.

Btw, Nirodh. C. Choudhuri wasn't talking of Anandamath.
Not singing Vande Mataram does not lessen my committment to my country and I would always fight for the right of my fellow Indians (of whatever religion) to recite the song.
Thats correct.

Jana, you haven't answered this. Who is the chameleon here - you or ToI?
 
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Are there two types of Hindus? Those who think that Hinduism is not a religion and the other who thinks it is..? Or those who say Hinduism is not a religion wrong.. Help me out here.

From what i understand, it seems there are Hindus who are ready to put their religion at a lower level...to pretend to be secular.

Dear Webby,

Even living in US didn't make you secular? US is a country of free voice, free opinions etc. But you would hardly believe it.

Nobody in India said "accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan". If this would have been the truth, we would have kicked all of Muslims to Pakistan in 1947. Webby do you not agree, even normal Pakistanis hate MQM. And why is that? Is it because you have been unwilling to accept Muslims from India after partition. Yes, exactly? You term then as Mohajirs.

There is also a division amongst Sunni and Shias and lots of other things. So, stop propagating about what is going on in India, and concentrate more on how you can make sure Pakistan exist.

Did you have your Hamburger today?

Jana, seems to be knowing more than ISI, time for you to check her posts!!!
 
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I appologize for that if Indians take it as a religiouse song and it hurts their sentiments then i appologize for that.

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In this case i feel its clearly the case that its is related to hindu belief about hindu godess thats why you took it that way.
We feel offended, not because it is 'a religiouse song', but because it a patriotic song which is praising mother land.

It is not high energy physics, you know. Nice try, btw.
But my point is that there are many national songs and these are just songs you can not compare them with any religiouse verse or song or whatever you call it.
So now you will decide what we shall chose as our national song?
 
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By that logic one shouldn't study Aristotle as well. Didn't he advocate slavery. My, my. Burn his books down. Shall we now.

Nobodies is asking you to do away with the song altogather. The problem is if its clashing with my faith and i do not want to sing a song then why should it be imposed on me that too when my country claims to be a secular one and which claims that it wont do any such lagislation which forces anything contrary to any faith.

What does it matter what the purpose of the song is, or was, in its entirety. Does it espouse the same meaning, or sense of purpose, in its truncated form? That is question to be asked.

I think i have posted enough which clearly shows the contradiction in claims by those who say that it is neutralised and no more clash with religiouse beliefs of Muslims.



Jana, you haven't answered this. Who is the chameleon here - you or ToI?

If you can not differentiate between propaganda item and a news item then i cant make you understand.

Still once again here the debate is not that what ToI says, the debate is about the issue itself, the debate is not what a Hindu fundamentalist said to ToI about Muslims.
 
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