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Abu Hamza silent on ISI role in Mumbai attacks

chalo jii!

now ''major sameer''

:lol:
Naam se to RAW agent lagta hai...reminds me of orange thread of Kasab...:rofl:
Comings days will be interesting, and lets see how it affects diplomatic dialogues taking place. Home ministry didn't give the dossier to MEA but informed about recent information.
 
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Yes I know, you guys are still in denial that there is not an iota of evidence implicating the ISI/PA in the Mumbai attacks. In case I missed it though, here is your chance to provide us with this 'credible evidence of ISI/PA complicity in the Mumbai attacks'.

The 26/11 attack had all the markings of a state sponsored attack with plausible deniability build into it as expected. The evidence by Kasab, Headley and this Hamza guys have only reinforced this.

This is as good an evidence as it can get. Now you may keep on claiming torture or whatever, both Headley and Hamza have implicated Pakistani military and ISI directly.

This is the closest to a smoking gun you are going to get in this dirty business of mindlessly killing innocents of other countries by Pakistani terrorists.

The illegal US raid was the bigger question - many criminals can manage to hide for years before being caught, that in itself is not that unusual at all, nor does it in any way suggest institutional complicity.

He was no ordinary pickpocket kind of criminal. I understand why you don't consider it unusual.

After all, OBL also didn't consider it unusual to choose Pakistan in the whole wide world for a sanctuary! There was a reason for it.

It isn't the Pakistanis who are trying to come up with ludicrous claims of 'individuals with military bearing who MUST HAVE BEEN ISI' - when you can actually provide credible evidence to show Pakistani State complicity, then you can argue 'Pakistanis are in denial and clutching at straws', till then, the people suffering from denial, paranoia and clutching at straws' are the Indians claiming that the nonsensical statements bandied about by the Indian media and the GoI are somehow 'evidence of ISI complicity in the Mumbai attacks'.

You just have to open your eyes. The evidence is all around you.

If you choose not to focus on the discrepancies in "Indian media reporting" rather than the real issue, you may even see it.

As pointed out already, claims of Pakistan lobbying to prevent him from being deported to India at the moment are speculative.

That said, if Pakistani authorities were only aware that a Pakistani national with a Pakistani passport was being deported to India, with no idea about the true identity of the individual, then why would you blame Pakistan for trying to protect its citizens from being deported to another country without evidence?

I understand you need some more evidence. Just wait for some more time and keep an open mind and eyes and ears. We have not seen the end of it by any means.

I think it is fairly obvious that if India is trying to get a terror convict and Pakistan is trying to stop that by calling him its own national, it is not as innocent as you make it out to be.

I thought Chidambaram said the 'control room' was in Karachi?

The issue still remains. It was near a Pakistani military establishment. Such control rooms can't be run in a large city without official sanction.

You have not provided anything to 'see' - there is nothing here but nonsensical conspiracy theories and paranoia to demonize Pakistan and its military.

Nonsensical?

I see that you probably think it is your patriotic duty to deflect and obfuscate as much as possible and even when its no longer possible.

I am not so sure that it is really patriotic. In essence it only delays the inevitable and the price has to be paid by resident Pakistanis who are paying in blood much more than foreign victims of Pakistani terrorists.

Besides the great reputation that Pakistan has built up all over the world.

Obfuscation and denial is not patriotism. Antiseptic "patriotism" from ten thousand miles is no patriotism.
 
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Multiple sources quoting the same 'anonymous officials'.

Its still just rumor and speculation.

yes I am sure it is just another great conspiracy, multiple newspapers in the middle east, India, USA and Europe all saying the same thing. Quoting Indian, Saudi and US sources is just a ruse to confuse people.

The reminds me of all the pakistani claims for years, "OBL is not in Pakistan"
 
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The 26/11 attack had all the markings of a state sponsored attack with plausible deniability build into it as expected. The evidence by Kasab, Headley and this Hamza guys have only reinforced this.
The attack on GHQ, PNS Mehran and the various police academies had 'all the markings of State Sponsored attacks' - so, given your argument of 'markings' are you willing to accept Indian State complicity in those terrorist attacks?

This is as good an evidence as it can get. Now you may keep on claiming torture or whatever, both Headley and Hamza have implicated Pakistani military and ISI directly.
All the two of them have done is claim that 'Major XYZ' as supposedly interacting with them - pretty much everyone accepts that an intelligence agency operative would not provide rank, name or identify the organization he/she worked for, so for all we know, these individuals were using false identities, or might have been former military personnel - none of the above suggest ISI/PA complicity in the Mumbai attacks.

This is the closest to a smoking gun you are going to get in this dirty business of mindlessly killing innocents of other countries by Pakistani terrorists.
Nope, not even close to a smoking gun - speculation is all it is.
He was no ordinary pickpocket kind of criminal. I understand why you don't consider it unusual.
And he took precautions (such as never venturing out of the compound he was hiding in for years and refraining from all electronic communication) that an ordinary pickpocket would not, making it possible for him to remain in hiding till pieces
After all, OBL also didn't consider it unusual to choose Pakistan in the whole wide world for a sanctuary! There was a reason for it.
Sure, the reason was common sense - Pakistan was the closest country to Afghanistan when it was invaded by the US, where he had extensive contacts with various militant groups and former officials who had worked with him during the anti-Soviet Jihad. It is a country with weak institutions, especially law enforcement and a huge population which afforded him an excellent opportunity to stay hidden.
You just have to open your eyes. The evidence is all around you.
The only thing all around me is paranoia and Pakistan bashing based on prejudice and speculation.

If you choose not to focus on the discrepancies in "Indian media reporting" rather than the real issue, you may even see it.
Even if you ignore the discrepancies in the reporting by the Indian media, the flaws in the so called 'evidence' are as pointed out above.

I understand you need some more evidence. Just wait for some more time and keep an open mind and eyes and ears. We have not seen the end of it by any means.
And in the mean time, please accept that making outlandish accusations based on utter nonsense does not constitute 'keeping an open mind' or being 'objective'.

I think it is fairly obvious that if India is trying to get a terror convict and Pakistan is trying to stop that by calling him its own national, it is not as innocent as you make it out to be.
Again, we have no credible account of what happened, whether Pakistan lobbied against the deportation, why the did so if they did it, whether they stopped once the identity of the man in question was established etc. All these details have relevance and they add context to the actions, if any, that any particular party might have taken.
The issue still remains. It was near a Pakistani military establishment. Such control rooms can't be run in a large city without official sanction.
Sure, and both GHQ and the Mehran base were assaulted and under siege for hours by terrorists, so obviously, in a city of 20 million plus, mere proximity means nothing. And what exactly was so special about this 'control room'? As far as I can tell, it involved a group of people with internet access, cell phones and some televisions. How is that some sort of a 'super special control room'? You make it sound like its a NASA Moon Launch Control Center.

Nonsensical?

I see that you probably think it is your patriotic duty to deflect and obfuscate as much as possible and even when its no longer possible.
If you stop Pakistan bashing for a moment and get rid of the 'foreign invaders conquered bharat matta' complex, you'll realize that the arguments you are offering up as 'evidence of ISI/PA complicity' are nothing but speculative garbage.
Obfuscation and denial is not patriotism. Antiseptic "patriotism" from ten thousand miles is no patriotism.
Right, as usual, return to ad hominems when all else fails. Questioning my patriotism or location does not change the facts, pointed out above, that your arguments/evidence are flawed, speculative and far from credible.

yes I am sure it is just another great conspiracy, multiple newspapers in the middle east, India, USA and Europe all saying the same thing. Quoting Indian, Saudi and US sources is just a ruse to confuse people.

The reminds me of all the pakistani claims for years, "OBL is not in Pakistan"
Multiple papers regurgitating the same source.

More like 'reminds me of all the Western papers claiming evidence that Iraq had WMD's'...
 
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How this NATO supply is open!

There are few points include this Abu Hamza story!

First USA ordered Saudia to handover that person to India so that India will take him in her custody and start again fake propaganda that **** person admitted that ISI was involved... after USA and other USA ***** countries who are **** of USA support USA > India and put pressure on Pakistan in United Nation declaring ISI as terrorist sponsor bla bla and start propaganda against Pakistan Army and ISI that both are involve in Mumbai attacks.

Now after the NATO supply opened USA ordered India to stop that game because now Supply line is opened and Abu Hamza story is now over! at-least not right now we don't need any kind of pressure over Pakistan because Pakistan Army now clearly understand what we will do if they are not opening NATO Supply line... nothing complicated... everything is simple... USA blackmailing Pakistan AS USUAL! and this ABU HAMZA Story have strong linked with NATO Supply!
 
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Multiple papers regurgitating the same source.

More like 'reminds me of all the Western papers claiming evidence that Iraq had WMD's'...


Actually no, as I said "Quoting Indian, Saudi and US sources" go look at some newspapers from around the world.
 
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Actually no, as I said "Quoting Indian, Saudi and US sources" go look at some newspapers from around the world.
I have seen the 'newspapers from around the world', the language used makes it pretty clear that it is nothing but a regurgitation of the uncorroborated 'anonymous official' claims initially floated by the Indian media.

And 'newspapers from around the world' also regurgitated the US lies from 'US and NATO sources' of Iraqi WMD's - so what's your point?
 
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I have seen the 'newspapers from around the world', the language used makes it pretty clear that it is nothing but a regurgitation of the uncorroborated 'anonymous official' claims initially floated by the Indian media.

A Gulf-based source familiar with the Ansari case said Pakistan had exerted pressure on Saudi Arabia not to release him into Indian custody. "The ISI wanted Abu Hamza to be handed over to Pakistan rather than anywhere else," he said.

Alleged Mumbai plotter Ansari was planning new attack - police | Reuters

There's one, unless you want to claim India is in the Gulf now?
 
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A Gulf-based source familiar with the Ansari case said Pakistan had exerted pressure on Saudi Arabia not to release him into Indian custody. "The ISI wanted Abu Hamza to be handed over to Pakistan rather than anywhere else," he said.

Alleged Mumbai plotter Ansari was planning new attack - police | Reuters

There's one, unless you want to claim India is in the Gulf now?
A 'Gulf based source' - why couldn't it be an Indian official based in the Gulf, and why could this 'source' opinion be taken as the gospel truth?
 
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The attack on GHQ, PNS Mehran and the various police academies had 'all the markings of State Sponsored attacks' - so, given your argument of 'markings' are you willing to accept Indian State complicity in those terrorist attacks?


All the two of them have done is claim that 'Major XYZ' as supposedly interacting with them - pretty much everyone accepts that an intelligence agency operative would not provide rank, name or identify the organization he/she worked for, so for all we know, these individuals were using false identities, or might have been former military personnel - none of the above suggest ISI/PA complicity in the Mumbai attacks.


Nope, not even close to a smoking gun - speculation is all it is.

And he took precautions (such as never venturing out of the compound he was hiding in for years and refraining from all electronic communication) that an ordinary pickpocket would not, making it possible for him to remain in hiding till pieces

Sure, the reason was common sense - Pakistan was the closest country to Afghanistan when it was invaded by the US, where he had extensive contacts with various militant groups and former officials who had worked with him during the anti-Soviet Jihad. It is a country with weak institutions, especially law enforcement and a huge population which afforded him an excellent opportunity to stay hidden.
The only thing all around me is paranoia and Pakistan bashing based on prejudice and speculation.


Even if you ignore the discrepancies in the reporting by the Indian media, the flaws in the so called 'evidence' are as pointed out above.


And in the mean time, please accept that making outlandish accusations based on utter nonsense does not constitute 'keeping an open mind' or being 'objective'.


Again, we have no credible account of what happened, whether Pakistan lobbied against the deportation, why the did so if they did it, whether they stopped once the identity of the man in question was established etc. All these details have relevance and they add context to the actions, if any, that any particular party might have taken.

Sure, and both GHQ and the Mehran base were assaulted and under siege for hours by terrorists, so obviously, in a city of 20 million plus, mere proximity means nothing. And what exactly was so special about this 'control room'? As far as I can tell, it involved a group of people with internet access, cell phones and some televisions. How is that some sort of a 'super special control room'? You make it sound like its a NASA Moon Launch Control Center.


If you stop Pakistan bashing for a moment and get rid of the 'foreign invaders conquered bharat matta' complex, you'll realize that the arguments you are offering up as 'evidence of ISI/PA complicity' are nothing but speculative garbage.

Right, as usual, return to ad hominems when all else fails. Questioning my patriotism or location does not change the facts, pointed out above, that your arguments/evidence are flawed, speculative and far from credible.


Multiple papers regurgitating the same source.

More like 'reminds me of all the Western papers claiming evidence that Iraq had WMD's'...

Nothing new. Interesting that you thought of India about the Mehran and other attacks by Islamist terrorists when it is fairly well known that their funding and support comes from the Islamic gulf.

Also interesting to note the "Bharat mata" stuff, a sure sign of desperation setting in when the obfuscation has obviously failed.

It is clear that Pakistani terrorists were involved. It is clear that the state has done nothing to bring them to book. It is clear that the terror masterminds like Saeed enjoy wide support among the state agencies and the public at large.

And it is clear that this has not changed despite the costs paid by ordinary Pakistanis. The state just refuses to let go of terror as a matter of state policy.

And some "patriots" while defending the indefensible, are only prolonging it. They are not helping their country as they may be mistakenly believing.

One day they will realize it. I hope its not too late.

Getting away with terror seems to be a great achievement to some, it is not really.
 
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A 'Gulf based source' - why couldn't it be an Indian official based in the Gulf, and why could this 'source' opinion be taken as the gospel truth?

got any proof of that or is it just you speculating? As I said and you denied and I just proved, tehre are multiple sources for this.

you're grasping at straws now and you know it. I'll give you credit though, once you stake out a position you stick with it, any facts to the contrary be damned.
 
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got any proof of that or is it just you speculating? As I said and you denied and I just proved, tehre are multiple sources for this.
Given the vague 'source based in the Gulf', you would be 'speculating just as much as I if claiming that the source was not an Indian official based in the Gulf.
you're grasping at straws now and you know it. I'll give you credit though, once you stake out a position you stick with it, any facts to the contrary be damned.
I am not the one clinging to the opinion of some vague, anonymous 'gulf based source' and taking it as the Gospel truth.

Nothing new. Interesting that you thought of India about the Mehran and other attacks by Islamist terrorists when it is fairly well known that their funding and support comes from the Islamic gulf.
But, per your logic, such 'sophisticated attacks could only be done with State Support - training, intel etc.' which leaves India and the US as the main suspects, regardless of the source of the funding for the groups.

Also interesting to note the "Bharat mata" stuff, a sure sign of desperation setting in when the obfuscation has obviously failed.
I am merely describing the ideological position you cling to, that, IMO, colors your irrational prejudice and hatred of Pakistan - you have expressed it enough here and on other fora ...

It is clear that Pakistani terrorists were involved. It is clear that the state has done nothing to bring them to book. It is clear that the terror masterminds like Saeed enjoy wide support among the state agencies and the public at large.
The suspects are in prison (Lakhvi and a couple of others), awaiting credible evidence (please keep in mind how many alleged terrorists that targeted the Pakistani State have been freed by the courts for lack of proper prosecution and evidence, so this is not isolated to people wanted by India alone) - there is nothing to implicate Saeed in the Mumbai attacks, and there is nothing to implicate the ISI/PA/PN in the attacks, so what exactly is your problem, other than your irrational hatred over 'foreign invaders conquering Bharat Mata"?
The state just refuses to let go of terror as a matter of state policy.
Merely regurgitating the same allegation again and again will not magically conjure up facts/evidence to support it.

And some "patriots" while defending the indefensible, are only prolonging it. They are not helping their country as they may be mistakenly believing.
The indefensible here are the allegations you lot are hurling without a shred of credible evidence to support them, and I agree that you are not helping India by continuing to cling to this paranoid hatred and smear campaign.
 
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