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About 9/11

I see that while I slept the whole 9/11 conspiracy deal was replayed. My special thanks to S-2 for his spirited defense of common sense here last night. If any of you 9/11 deniers would read "The Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright, you would have a very hard time holding to your warped views. This 2006 book, which won the Pulitizer Prize, is fantastically detailed about the 9/11 plot and all of the known participants. It also shows, in great detail, as much as the author could discover, the many screw-ups within the US intelligence agencies that contributed to not preventing the event.

As an experimental physicist, trained in rational thinking and with a reverence for facts and data, I cannot abide the kooky conspiracy theorist diatribes. 9/11 was orchestrated and performed by al Qaeda. THERE WAS NO "INSIDE JOB" other than incompetence within several US intelligence groups. Period. End of Story. Get over it!!!! Please!!!
 
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Cherry-picking. Mistakes abound and your objective is to dissemble and not convey conditions and behavior of our troops now. Too, too many U.S. military VOLUNTEERS that have given too much for you to anchor on such dubious sourcing as a sole reflection. You're welcome to but, doing so, you'll choose to see matters from myopic blinders.

Ask the Iraqis if they'd like Saddam resurrected or any of his kindred souls emplaced in his stead.

Thorosious, your numbers come from Iraq Body Count and are likely reasonably accurate. Not much research involved. More accurately, of course, would be to note the current acceleratingly downward trend in that nation.

As for Afghanistan-

The Human Cost: The Consequences of Insurgent Attacks In Afghanistan- Human Rights Watch

Civilian Casualties of the War in Afghanistan- Aggregate Wikipedia

Yes, it's wikipedia, but I'd encourage you to read it's disputed content. The sourcing is actually good and details estimates which reach back to the Soviet-Afghan War. THAT, btw, permits a lovely comparison of then, the civil war, and now.

Here's more on deaths resulting from airstrikes, etc in Afghanistan-

Troops In Contact: Airstrikes and Civilian Deaths in Afghanistan- Human Rights Watch

The facts are that the TALIBAN kill Afghan civilians at a rate of 2.5/1, and do so by intent- to include shielding and targeted killing. Nobody yet has accused ISAF of deliberately targeting innocents. I'm certain that it won't even be done HERE. In any case, though, the total deaths of Afghanis by the combined violence of both sides neither REMOTELY approaches the deaths during the Afghan Civil War nor, worse, deaths during the Soviet-Afghan war.

Carnage is a fact, but it's grossly skewed to achieve your narratives and not a reflection of ground-reality regardless of how fervantly you pray that it be so for your narrow and cynical purposes. Bluntly, we'd need a 1,000 years at the present pace to catch the MINIMAL estimates of lives lost during the Soviet-Afghan war.

Care to dispute the sources? Do so, but provide better and I doubt you can.
 
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British servicemen were apprehended in Basra where they were trying to plant explosives close to a shia mosque. This US started war has now claimed 89,600 – 97,828 in Iraq alone. The continuing trend of bombing weddings and village gatherings in Afghanistan, I can only guess the body count there.

NO they weren't............I don't know why people keep repeating lies.......the only thing they found was a standard SF operating setup.
 
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Ahhh, who cares? We could build a mountain as high as Everest from the weapons pulled from mosques.

No particular sanctity there as practiced by the enemy.
 
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There are a number of steps the US government can take to ease the paranoia of the world regarding 9-11. Unfortunately the only thing they care about 9-11 is what can be gained from it, similar to Mumbai 2008.

Do you seriously seriously think their intelligence and security services are incapable of planning or having a hand in this attack, while Al Qaeda can?
 
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"Do you seriously seriously think their intelligence and security services are incapable of planning or having a hand in this attack, while Al Qaeda can?"

You conflate "means" with "intent". First mistake. Larger mistake is the implication that it could be done so without revelation. Nearly impossible in a world where an active and inquisitive media intersects daily with those who've personal/professional axes to grind, agendas to pursue, and dollars to be made.

Won't fly under that scrutiny.

Bullsh!t indeed.
 
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Your media has a hand in disinformation and coverups since day 1. Active yes, inquisitive...bullsh!t.
 
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"Your media has a hand in disinformation and coverups since day 1."

Now you ramble incoherantly. Which day was "day 1", btw?

This from the Book of Genesis-

"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day


Is that the day of which you had in mind?:lol:
 
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How the CIA Created a Ruling, Corporate Overclass in America


From a longer article

The Media
Journalism is a perfect cover for CIA agents. People talk freely to journalists, and few think suspiciously of a journalist aggressively searching for information. Journalists also have power, influence and clout. Not surprisingly, the CIA began a mission in the late 1940s to recruit American journalists on a wide scale, a mission it dubbed Operation MOCKINGBIRD. The agency wanted these journalists not only to relay any sensitive information they discovered, but also to write anti-communist, pro-capitalist propaganda when needed.

The instigators of MOCKINGBIRD were Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham was the husband of Katherine Graham, today’s publisher of the Washington Post. In fact, it was the Post’s ties to the CIA that allowed it to grow so quickly after the war, both in readership and influence. (8)
MOCKINGBIRD was extraordinarily successful. In no time, the agency had recruited at least 25 media organizations to disseminate CIA propaganda. At least 400 journalists would eventually join the CIA payroll, according to the CIA’s testimony before a stunned Church Committee in 1975. (The committee felt the true number was considerably higher.) The names of those recruited reads like a Who's Who of journalism:

* Philip and Katharine Graham (Publishers, Washington Post)
* William Paley (President, CBS)
* Henry Luce (Publisher, Time and Life magazine)

* Arthur Hays Sulzberger (Publisher, N.Y. Times)
* Jerry O'Leary (Washington Star)
* Hal Hendrix (Pulitzer Prize winner, Miami News)
* Barry Bingham Sr., (Louisville Courier-Journal)
* James Copley (Copley News Services)

* Joseph Harrison (Editor, Christian Science Monitor)
* C.D. Jackson (Fortune)
* Walter Pincus (Reporter, Washington Post)
* ABC
* NBC
* Associated Press

* United Press International
* Reuters
* Hearst Newspapers
* Scripps-Howard
* Newsweek magazine
* Mutual Broadcasting System
* Miami Herald
* Old Saturday Evening Post

* New York Herald-Tribune

Perhaps no newspaper is more important to the CIA than the Washington Post, one of the nation’s most right-wing dailies. Its location in the nation’s capitol enables the paper to maintain valuable personal contacts with leading intelligence, political and business figures. Unlike other newspapers, the Post operates its own bureaus around the world, rather than relying on AP wire services. Owner Philip Graham was a military intelligence officer in World War II, and later became close friends with CIA figures like Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Desmond FitzGerald and Richard Helms. He inherited the Post by marrying Katherine Graham, whose father owned it. After Philip’s suicide in 1963, Katharine Graham took over the Post. Seduced by her husband’s world of government and espionage, she expanded her newspaper’s relationship with the CIA. In a 1988 speech before CIA officials at Langley, Virginia, she stated:

We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things that the general public does not need to know and shouldn’t. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows.

This quote has since become a classic among CIA critics for its belittlement of democracy and its admission that there is a political agenda behind the Post’s headlines. Ben Bradlee was the Post’s managing editor during most of the Cold War. He worked in the U.S. Paris embassy from 1951 to 1953, where he followed orders by the CIA station chief to place propaganda in the European press. (9) Most Americans incorrectly believe that Bradlee personifies the liberal slant of the Post, given his role in publishing the Pentagon Papers and the Watergate investigations. But neither of these two incidents are what they seem. The Post merely published the Pentagon Papers after The New York Times already had, because it wanted to appear competitive. As for Watergate, we’ll examine the CIA’s reasons for wanting to bring down Nixon in a moment. Someone once asked Bradlee: "Does it irk you when The Washington Post is made out to be a bastion of slanted liberal thinkers instead of champion journalists just because of Watergate?" Bradlee responded: "Damn right it does!" (10)

It would be impossible to elaborate in this short space even the most important examples of the CIA/media alliance. Sig Mickelson was a CIA asset the entire time he was president of CBS News from 1954 to 1961. Later he went on to become president of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, two major outlets of CIA propaganda.

The CIA also secretly bought or created its own media companies.
It owned 40 percent of the Rome Daily American at a time when communists were threatening to win the Italian elections. Worse, the CIA has bought many domestic media companies. A prime example is Capital Cities, created in 1954 by CIA businessman William Casey (who would later become Reagan’s CIA director). Another founder was Lowell Thomas, a close friend and business contact with CIA Director Allen Dulles. Another founder was CIA businessman Thomas Dewey. By 1985, Capital Cities had grown so powerful that it was able to buy an entire TV network: ABC.

For those who believe in "separation of press and state," the very idea that the CIA has secret propaganda outlets throughout the media is appalling. The reason why America was so oblivious to CIA crimes in the 40s and 50s was because the media willingly complied with the agency. Even today, when the immorality of the CIA should be an open-and-shut case, "debate" about the issue rages in the media. Here is but one example:

In 1996, The San Jose Mercury News published an investigative report suggesting that the CIA had sold crack in Los Angeles to fund the Contra war in Central America. A month later, three of the CIA’s most important media allies — The Washington Post, The New York Times and The Los Angeles Times — immediately leveled their guns at the Mercury report and blasted away in an attempt to discredit it. Who wrote the Post article? Walter Pincus, longtime CIA journalist. The dangers here are obvious.
 
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"Your media has a hand in disinformation and coverups since day 1."

Now you ramble incoherantly. Which day was "day 1", btw?

This from the Book of Genesis-

"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day


Is that the day of which you had in mind?:lol:

That is just to funny s-2?

The bigger topic of 9-11, there are so many conspiracy theory of inside job that there is no abound.

Why the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Won't Go Away

Take a look, if you can stand it, at video footage of the World Trade Center collapsing. Your eye will naturally jump to the top of the screen, where huge fountains of dark debris erupt out of the falling towers. But fight your natural instincts. Look farther down, at the stories that haven't collapsed yet.

In almost every clip you'll see little puffs of dust spurting out from the sides of the towers. There are two competing explanations for these puffs of dust: 1) the force of the collapsing upper floors raised the air pressure in the lower ones so dramatically that it actually blew out the windows. And 2) the towers did not collapse from the impact of two Boeing 767s and the ensuing fires. They were destroyed in a planned, controlled demolition. The dust puffs you see on film are the detonations of explosives planted there before the attacks.

People who believe the second explanation live in a very different world from those who believe the first. In world No. 2, al-Qaeda is not responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center. The U.S. government is. The Pentagon was not hit by a commercial jet; it was hit by a cruise missile. United Flight 93 did not crash after its occupants rushed the cockpit; it was deliberately taken down by a U.S. Air Force fighter. The entire catastrophe was planned and executed by federal officials in order to provide the U.S. with a pretext for going to war in the Middle East and, by extension, as a means of consolidating and extending the power of the Bush Administration.

The population of world No. 2 is larger than you might think. A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. Thirty-six percent adds up to a lot of people. This is not a fringe phenomenon. It is a mainstream political reality.

Although the 9/11 Truth Movement, as many conspiracy believers refer to their passion, has been largely ignored by the mainstream media, it is flourishing on the Internet. One of the most popular conspiracy videos online is Loose Change, a 90-min. blizzard of statistics, photographs, documents, eyewitness accounts and expert testimony set to a trippy hip-hop backbeat. It's designed to pick apart, point by point, the conventional narrative of what happened on Sept. 11, 2001.

For all its amateur production values--it was created by a pair of industrious twentysomethings using a laptop, pizza money and footage scavenged from the Internet--Loose Change is a compelling experience. Take the section about the attack on the Pentagon. As the film points out--and this is a tent-pole issue among 9/11 conspiracists--the crash site doesn't look right. There's not enough damage. The hole smashed in the Pentagon's outer wall was 75 ft. wide, but a Boeing 757 has a 124-ft. wingspan. Why wasn't the hole wider? Why does it look so neat?

Experts will tell you that the hole was punched by the plane's fuselage, not its wings, which sheared off on impact. But then what happened to the wings? And the tail and the engines? Images of the crash site show hardly any of the wreckage you would expect from a building that's been rammed by a commercial jet. The lawn, where the plane supposedly dragged a wing on approach, is practically pristine. The plane supposedly clipped five lampposts on its way in, but the lampposts in question show surprisingly little damage. And could Hani Hanjour, the man supposedly at the controls, have executed the maneuvers that the plane performed? He failed a flight test just weeks before the attack. And Pentagon employees reported smelling cordite after the hit, the kind of high explosive a cruise missile carries.

There's something empowering about just exploring such questions. Loose Change appeals to the viewer's common sense: it tells you to forget the official explanations and the expert testimony, and trust your eyes and your brain instead. It implies that the world can be grasped by laymen without any help or interference from the talking heads. Watching Loose Change, you feel as if you are participating in the great American tradition of self-reliance and nonconformist, antiauthoritarian dissent. You're fighting the power. You're thinking different. (Conspiracists call people who follow the government line "sheeple.") "The goal of the movie was just really to get out there and show that there are alternate stories to what the mainstream media and the government will tell you," says Korey Rowe, 23, who produced the movie. "That 19 hijackers are going to completely bypass security and crash four commercial airliners in a span of two hours, with no interruption from the military forces, in the most guarded airspace in the United States and the world? That to me is a conspiracy theory."

It's also not much of a story line. As a narrative, the official story that the government--echoed by the media--is trying to sell shows an almost embarrassing lack of novelistic flair, whereas the story the conspiracy theorists tell about what happened on Sept. 11 is positively Dan Brownesque in its rich, exciting complexity. Rowe and his collaborator, Dylan Avery, 22, actually started writing Loose Change as a fictional screenplay--"loosely based around us discovering that 9/11 was an inside job," Rowe says--before they became convinced that the evidence of conspiracy was overwhelming. The Administration is certainly playing its part in the drama with admirable zeal. If we went to war to root out fictional weapons of mass destruction, is staging a fictional terrorist attack such a stretch?

But there's a big problem with Loose Change and with most other conspiracy theories. The more you think about them, the more you realize how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis or documentation, quotes taken out of context and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses. (For what it's worth, the National Institute of Standards and Technology has published a fact sheet responding to some of the conspiracy theorists' ideas on its website, National Institute of Standards and Technology. The theories prompt small, reasonable questions that demand answers that are just too large and unreasonable to swallow. Granted, the Pentagon crash site looks odd in photographs. But if the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, then what happened to American Airlines Flight 77? Where did all the real, documented people on it go? Assassinated? Relocated? What about eyewitnesses who saw a plane, not a missile? And what are the chances that an operation of such size--it would surely have involved hundreds of military and civilian personnel--could be carried out without a single leak? Without leaving behind a single piece of evidence hard enough to stand up to scrutiny in a court? People, the feds just aren't that slick. Nobody is.

There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. "We tend to associate major events--a President or princess dying--with major causes," says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. "If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us." In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting.

You would have thought the age of conspiracy theories might have declined with the rise of digital media. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy was a private, intimate affair compared with the attack on the World Trade Center, which was witnessed by millions of bystanders and television viewers and documented by hundreds of Zapruders. You would think there was enough footage and enough forensics to get us past the grassy knoll and the magic bullet, to create a consensus reality, a single version of the truth, a single world we can all live in together.

But there is no event so plain and clear that a determined human being can't find ambiguity in it. And as divisive as they are, conspiracy theories are part of the process by which Americans deal with traumatic public events like Sept. 11. Conspiracy theories form around them like scar tissue. In a curious way, they're an American form of national mourning. They'll be with us as long as we fear lone gunmen, and feel the pain of losses like the one we suffered on Sept. 11, and as long as the past, even the immediate past, is ultimately unknowable. That is to say, forever.

Why the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Won't Go Away - TIME
 
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I don't know why people are trying to convince each other here whether or not 9/11 was an inside job. What I'm saying is that enough people are there on each side of the divide. It definitely warrants an independent inquiry commission to be set up by the new President.

I believe there were many inconsistencies in the manner the 911 commission conducted itself. I think some people were exempted from taking oath while giving their testimony, some people were handed out the questions they would be asked before hand and they got to filter out the ones they wanted to answer and the ones they did not. Weird crap has been going on these past years under the garb of security.
 
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The best way to fight their disinformation campaigns and sterilization of truth is to educate yourself, read into everything and anything, be skeptical, but do not reject truth for self gain.
 
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S-2 did you run out of bible jokes after reading my response about your beloved media? Or are you practicing what most Indians do on this forum...ignore statements that are true...?
 
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I too have spent more than six months studying and collecting data on 9/11, most of my questions are still unanswered.

One question to all: "Who benefited most from 9/11? :coffee:

 
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