A women-only market in AJK provides way around conservative beliefs

[Spring Onion]

I actually supported the idea of Trump over Hillary lol! So the latter is not really that bad an option




Providing opportunities is just fine ... and If a group that perceives itself as marginalized and in need of help, and can go and convince people to give them any sort of opportunity ... good for them ... The problem I have is restriction on visitation ... so as a man I can't visit this market ... why ? because I'm a man which must mean I'm a "potential domestic abuser/predator" ... that assumption doesn't sit well with me at all ... and it shouldn't sit well with any one with a level head on their shoulders ...

What you brought up about cultural sensitivities is in fact a rather interesting topic. Our "culture" is quite interesting. In our objectives resolution, our laid out aim was to follow the principles of islam. Yet our entire economic system is based on the system of interest. Coming to social issues, our citizen's are the first ones to judge each other on the basis of Islam when it comes to social matters .. yet we're also the first ones to break Islamic principles when it suits us. Just look up the state of bribery in our country, nepotism and the list goes on. People who are very "Islamic" who go about and condemn concerts and other such events are more then happy to visit Mehandis and watch girls dance all up and down the stage and that's not a problem because it's a "family function" ... Your allowed to be judgy as all hell when it comes to things like marriages, where the guy side of the family goes out and completely berates the looks of the girl, while the girl side of the family does the same to the guy's wallet where demanding a seven figure salary from a mid 20's kid who has just started his career is somehow the objective ...

Our "cultural sensitivities" are basically like this ... " I don't like what your doing so I'm going to use a cultural argument against you to manipulate you in to doing ... what I want you to do"

I do not know why people link cultural sensitivities with religion because mostly these are altogether different.

As far as this rule that no man well the news says a man can visit the market if accompanied by a woman hehehehe this made me laughing because it is an irony that Taliban barred women in parts of KpK from visiting markets unless they are accompanied by a male member of family. Now this is really epic in this case

 

[Dani_Insafian]

good thing

 

[EXPERIMENT]

Sir, this topic does have alot to do with feminism. The very reasons you cite to justify this effort prove it i.e. sexual harassment which is a very big issue in the feminist movement and the fact that men were actually banned in this market in the start but now can come if there is an accompanying woman. Somehow that reeks of feminism for me... I don't know about you though ...
Secondly, we are living in a society that is very cultural but is going through a phase of liberation where many western ideas are now being incorporated.....But the idea of a safe space amidst all the feminist rhetoric of we're equal/we're strong etc. etc...... really ?

Let's not forget what the basic assumption of this action is ... i.e. that

"men like you and me ... our sons and fathers are inherently rape-y" ...

In my simple mind ... Here is the way to deal with a crime --- enforce the law .... instead of grouping "potential victims" and giving them a "safe space" ...

I pop into PDF every now and then hoping to read something intelligent. PDF in its hay day was a forum of brilliant minds where smart Indians swallowed their pride to learn something new. Your post deserves to be noted. Thanks for your stance.

 

[iamsufyanq]

Imagine the uproar if a market was male-only. There are so many female-only things - buses, malls, markets, etc and no one bats an eye lid at the blatant generalization and discrimination of all men as dangerous and whatnot. Men are the only group that you can openly generalize and discriminate against and no one would care.

@abdulbarijan

yes. Its nice. Our women are working. But there must be full men security for them.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Wait why? You hate this world?

A little ... Yeah ...
On a serious note .... I was leaning towards Sanders or Rand Paul as candidates for the job as they were better then the entire lot on the left or the right. Apparently Americans love living in a two party dictatorship which is why they weren't able to bring Dr. Jill or Gov Gary in to the debates ....
But given the last 2 REAL candidates were Clinton and Trump and Clinton instead of owning up to the DNC leaks which indicated that the Dem establishment was against Bernie .. she went .. "the Russians did the hacks" ... Like what ? Hillary is the same person whose Goldman Sachs speeches included her saying that "there should be a public and private position on a given issue" meaning you can say one thing in front of the public and do something entirely different. Lastly, she was probably setting up for WW-III when she went with a plan for erecting a no fly zone in Syria ... something ... that if done would involve the US in a direct conflict with the forces of Russia and Syria ...
Trump on the other hand is friendlier towards Russia. Secondly, he isn't afraid to spew his rhetoric on national TV. So you know what's coming ... instead of someone who talks "we're stronger together" and then does some shady stuff behind the scenes that is as deplorable if not more ...
Lastly, as a Pakistani .. republicans have been on better terms with us compared to dems ... Heck our entire nuke program was more or less ignored by the U.S when Regan was in office so there is a positive history there too ...

I do not know why people link cultural sensitivities with religion because mostly these are altogether different.
As far as this rule that no man well the news says a man can visit the market if accompanied by a woman hehehehe this made me laughing because it is an irony that Taliban barred women in parts of KpK from visiting markets unless they are accompanied by a male member of family. Now this is really epic in this case

Actually, I'll say something that might surprise you a little. I've seen this argument of "cultural sensitivities are not linked with religion" quite frequently ... well you see ... the research says otherwise ...

Culture at this point is understood to be composed of atleast 5 parts i.e. symbols, language, VALUES, norms and material items. What we have in Pakistan ... is the Values component and the norms component are in a state of contradiction. Normally values pave the way for norms. Our values are derived by the idealogy of Islam ... yet our norms such as bribery, nepotism etc. are in total contradiction with our value system. That is the central problem that we have which is why the problems that I've described earlier arise.

Coming back to the topic, ironic or not ... people shouldn't be demonized like that. If that were specifically black men that had to face such restrictions ... social justice warriors all around the world would have some major problems .. As rightly pointed out again and again by @SMC

I pop into PDF every now and then hoping to read something intelligent. PDF in its hay day was a forum of brilliant minds where smart Indians swallowed their pride to learn something new. Your post deserves to be noted. Thanks for your stance.

I don't know if I deserve all this praise though ... But thanks anyways

 

[Spring Onion]

Actually, I'll say something that might surprise you a little. I've seen this argument of "cultural sensitivities are not linked with religion" quite frequently ... well you see ... the research says otherwise ...

Culture at this point is understood to be composed of atleast 5 parts i.e. symbols, language, VALUES, norms and material items. What we have in Pakistan ... is the Values component and the norms component are in a state of contradiction. Normally values pave the way for norms. Our values are derived by the idealogy of Islam ... yet our norms such as bribery, nepotism etc. are in total contradiction with our value system. That is the central problem that we have which is why the problems that I've described earlier arise.

Coming back to the topic, ironic or not ... people shouldn't be demonized like that. If that were specifically black men that had to face such restrictions ... social justice warriors all around the world would have some major problems .. As rightly pointed out again and again by @SMC

I don't know if I deserve all this praise though ... But thanks anyways

Go to different areas of Pakistan and you will see the culture is not derived by the ideology of faith but rather a centuries old traditions for example wani , karokari, swara and all such so called HONOR related values which primarily are imposed on women in 99% cases. Now this honor thingy is the root cause which lead to women rights' suppression simple as that. It is another thing that in a bid to escape majority of us wrap these in religious wrapper.

Anyway I can say it with conviction that I have learnt more in co-education or at workplace of mixed genders than a segregated kind of environment and institution. In fact I grew more there in terms of success and abilities and learning skills.

A simple example can of PDF where we interact with everybody irrespective of gender and it helps us grow and learn above all makes us mature .

Now as far as this gender specific market well nothing is wrong with that as long as it does not harm anyone

 

[abdulbarijan]

Go to different areas of Pakistan and you will see the culture is not derived by the ideology of faith but rather a centuries old traditions for example wani , karokari, swara and all such so called HONOR related values which primarily are imposed on women in 99% cases. Now this honor thingy is the root cause which lead to women rights' suppression simple as that. It is another thing that in a bid to escape majority of us wrap these in religious wrapper.

Anyway I can say it with conviction that I have learnt more in co-education or at workplace of mixed genders than a segregated kind of environment and institution. In fact I grew more there in terms of success and abilities and learning skills.

A simple example can of PDF where we interact with everybody irrespective of gender and it helps us grow and learn above all makes us mature .

In my previous post I defined culture in terms of its components. What your saying in terms of traditions .. falls under the "norms" category. Like I said previously ... our norms and values are in contradiction with each other which is more or less why we've got soo much confusion when it comes to our culture. A large part of our values however are defined by the religion in majority.

Both these components along with 3 others combine to form culture ... which is why like you said .. many people try to defend their age old norms/traditions under the wrapping paper of religion because they are trying to justify their norms/traditions using the value system in place i.e. religion.

Now as far as this gender specific market well nothing is wrong with that as long as it does not harm anyone

Actually it does harm by propagating ALL MEN as if we're rapists/predators/abusers .... But I guess since your not a man hence, perceiving that is much harder for you. Imagine a country having a market which says " No Pak*s allowed" ... or the "only Pak*s allowed are the ones that come along/are recommended with our fellow nationals" ... Will you support that idea as well since after all technically "it's not harming anyone" ..

 

[Spring Onion]

Actually it does harm by propagating ALL MEN as if we're rapists/predators/abusers .... But I guess since your not a man hence, perceiving that is much harder for you. Imagine a country having a market which says " No Pak*s allowed" ... or the "only Pak*s allowed are the ones that come along/are recommended with our fellow nationals" ... Will you support that idea as well since after all technically "it's not harming anyone" ..

first of all if a COUNTRY decides to ban specific nationality from visiting a specific market NOT all markets then well it is ok with me as long as it does not harm anyone and as long as it is based on some genuine fear/concerns and NOT pure hate then well yes it is ok for me.

Now coming to the first line of your post well I do not know nothing about this AJK market so I honestly do not know if the logic behind this no man allowed is some verdict like rapists/abusers or predators. I only know that in our society it is very difficult to limit anything like that in markets hence you can read that the same market now allowed men provided a woman is accompanied.

Now just think over this why they had to allow men then? Because in my personal opinion (I may be wrong) a segregated society or section of society can never be safe. This market in itself created such an environment where they feel unsafe if males visit without a female family member.

I remember when I was a student an experiment of female only transport was introduced in Peshawar to tackle women harassment issue few years back but it failed very very badly that not even a single woman was found embarking on a journey through these buses because they felt threatened in all female buses.

And Now for the red part in your comment, I think we should apply the same formula on men and let us just assume that since you are not a woman hence, it is harder for you to understand what drive these women to have female only market.

 

[abdulbarijan]

first of all if a COUNTRY decides to ban specific nationality from visiting a specific market NOT all markets then well it is ok with me as long as it does not harm anyone and as long as it is based on some genuine fear/concerns and NOT pure hate then well yes it is ok for me.

I'm not talking about a nationality ... I was talking about a race ... us subcontinental people to be specific ... and I wasn't saying as if it were at a national level .. what I meant was a group of people getting together and deciding that we will ban or apply XYZ restriction on this other group based on their biology ... giving the impression that they are biologically inclined to do such and such horrific stuff ...

Now coming to the first line of your post well I do not know nothing about this AJK market so I honestly do not know if the logic behind this no man allowed is some verdict like rapists/abusers or predators. I only know that in our society it is very difficult to limit anything like that in markets hence you can read that the same market now allowed men provided a woman is accompanied.
Now just think over this why they had to allow men then? Because in my personal opinion (I may be wrong) a segregated society or section of society can never be safe. This market in itself created such an environment where they feel unsafe if males visit without a female family member.
I remember when I was a student an experiment of female only transport was introduced in Peshawar to tackle women harassment issue few years back but it failed very very badly that not even a single woman was found embarking on a journey through these buses because they felt threatened in all female buses.

You can see that in the subtext of it ... a "woman only market" which doubles "as a place to for those seeking help against the violence of the patriarchy" ... and suddenly "no men allowed" and then it goes out and does this ihsaan by "allowing men if accompanied by women" ...

Come on .. Thats like a group of people getting together and forming a white only market which "doubles as a safe space for white people" because those black people are statistically more likely to commit crime against them ... You know what everybody would call that ... a KKK recruitment center ...

And Now for the red part in your comment, I think we should apply the same formula on men and let us just assume that since you are not a woman hence, it is harder for you to understand what drive these women to have female only market.

Actually that formula wouldn't fit because as a man I'm statistically more prone to getting assaulted/physically attacked. (In other words I can get the same fate as one of those victims )

I simply don't think there would be an instance in this age where women are blatantly grouped together and stereotyped for doing awful and horrific things and that sitting well with anybody ... which is the only reason I said what you put in red ... Ofcourse there are alot of things that women experience differently then men and that we can't perceive from your point of view and vice versa ,,

 

[Spring Onion]

See we are not discussing a country here .. we're discussing a group of people getting together and deciding we will ban or apply XYZ restriction on this other group based on their biology ...



You can see that in the subtext of it ... a "woman only market" which doubles "as a place to for those seeking help against the violence of the patriarchy" ... and suddenly "no men allowed" and then it goes out and does this ihsaan by "allowing men if accompanied by women" ...

Come on .. Thats like a group of people getting together and forming a white only market which "doubles as a safe space for white people" because those black people are statistically more likely to commit crime against them ... You know what everybody would call that ... a KKK recruitment center ...

Actually that formula wouldn't fit because as a man I'm statistically more prone to getting assaulted/physically attacked. (In other words I can get the same fate as one of those victims )

I simply don't think there would be an instance in this age where women are blatantly grouped together and stereotyped for doing awful and horrific things and that sitting well with anybody ... which is the only reason I said what you put in red ... Ofcourse there are alot of things that women experience differently then men and that we can't perceive from your point of view and vice versa ,,

so basically you want to go to all women or only women market and for that you are eating my head come on abdulbari this market is in no way an assault on male rights. now it is not like that every male is an abuser or rapist it is simply because the same male species have this fear of physical assault against their women by other men hence this this product of only women market. btw we have a famous market in Peshawar by the name of meena bazaar for women but you will see same number of men there lolzz simply for check women.

 

[abdulbarijan]

so basically you want to go to all women or only women market and for that you are eating my head come on abdulbari this market is in no way an assault on male rights. now it is not like that every male is an abuser or rapist it is simply because the same male species have this fear of physical assault against their women by other men hence this this product of only women market. btw we have a famous market in Peshawar by the name of meena bazaar for women but you will see same number of men there lolzz simply for check women.

Again ... it is the implication that is the problem here ... I don't have a problem with people getting together to figure out a way forward or to conduct business ... and hell no .. I hate shopping ..
The policy position is what is flat out insulting in my opinion where the implication is that "THESE MEN (abusers/rapists/bad people)" are not ALLOWED and then it was eased to "Allowed if accompanied by a woman" ...

Just a few posts ago .. you said you found it funny and ironic as the taliban were doing the same thing where women were to have male guardians in markets etc. and now it's the same thing imposed with the genders reversed. Going by your argument this is "not an assault on male rights" ... i.e. "not a biggie" ...The thought that this market was setup with --- i.e. a policy that was a direct parallel to what the Taliban used --- with the genders reversed i.e. No men allowed and then eased to allowed if accompanied ... Doesn't that bother you ?

 

[SMC]

^^ Most women and feminists particularly seem to be completely full of double standards even if they do not realize it. The fact that Spring Onion is justifying double standards that are against men should not be surprising and actually be expected. Most people here would be completely against only allowing women when they are accompanied by men. But reverse it and most people don't give a sh*t.

The fact that men are allowed when accompanied with women speaks to how society treats men... men are basically supposed to have female validation in order to enter the market. The men that do not have this validation don't enter the market. This is what society judges men by to a great extent. If you have female validation then you are not a danger to us and a better man. Don't have that and you are a monster that is potentially a sexual predator/rapist/killer etc.

The same might apply in reverse to women as well but no where near the same level it does to men.

Coming back to the topic, ironic or not ... people shouldn't be demonized like that. If that were specifically black men that had to face such restrictions ... social justice warriors all around the world would have some major problems .. As rightly pointed out again and again by @SMC

Believe it or not SJWs have already made it illegal to randomly card men based on their skin colour in most of Canada and US. Carding is a practice where people are randomly stopped by cops to see if they have been involved in anything illegal, without any probable cause or court order. But like I said, it's illegal not because of gender but because of race. Black men in particular were unfairly targeted.

But, if one were to go with the logic being put forward in support of women-only markets, then this kind of carding should be fine because statistically black men are most likely to commit crime out of any group. But the kicker is if carding was only done against men, and black men were not disproportionately targeted, then no one would care because "it's only against men". Race would not be an issue.