A Solution to Kashmir

[baajey]

What an idiotic and naive notion but thankfully you are far far away from policy making.

Instead of ripping holes - I would just say that India has done enough, A country cannot GIVE GIVE AND GIVE, if certain section of populace out there want to take up the route of violence then violence they will get. No more coddling and soft loves, there is a time for carrot and time for a stick - rebellions are not put down by throwing money but decimating even the memory of rebels. If we Indians despite 70 years think there can be a peaceful solutions without breaking some eggs then we probably deserve to be annexed by Pakistan and be ruled over for another 1000 years or so.

Oh i so miss Mrs Gandhi, ironically the last politician to posses some balls

its been an honor to be called "idiot" by you sir, as apparently you are sitting at the helm of policy making.
i see that u are one of the ppl who believe all the govt agencies in india (top to bottom) are as benign as mother india herself. just because some less than benign ppl donning the uniform having the logo of indian army doesnt elevate them to the level of sam manekshaw, we should not assume the same in case of kashmir ( or any other place for the matter).
but apart from this "giving giving" notion of yours, which is also somewhat idiotic notion as well, i see nothing on ur post to comment or discuss.
u may miss mrs gandhi, but guess what, she was neither a notional hapazhard as u are, nor she is coming back.

 

[Shah01]

I normally don't take part in such discussions as I think these are useless and nothing comes out of them (the situation is such that both sides are not willing to resolve the matter - there seems to be no middle way). I think for both countries the main driver of holding on to Kashmir is water.

@Joe Shearer and some other members: I admire your knowledge of the subject (historic plus current situation and ability to think rationally). I am glad that some Indian members acknowledge the problem. I am going to try to breakdown the problem and would like your views/opinion. I have a few questions and maybe you and others can discuss:

By reading countless threads on this topic I have come to a conclusion that the Kashmir valley is the part where there seems to be the problem. Correct me if I am wrong (I have limited knowledge on this topic so would like to learn more)?

If the valley is the only part where the problem is then what would it take to have the plebiscite only in this part? Resolve all the other issues such as Sir Creek and Siachen Glacier? Would it be possible to have a middle way and what would that be? I am sure most Indian members will think India has the upper hand and the status quo will be just fine but we need to resolve these issues to enable us for the part below:

I have been thinking about a few points and how they will lift living standards of populace on both sides. I am sure vast majority will not share my thinking and it could be decades if the foundation work is laid today before seeing fruit of it with no skirmishes/conflicts.

Joint/Sharing of intelligence on terrorists.
Getting rid of proxies on both sides (dismantling all non-state actors).
Keep the borders closed with trade and movement from designated points? Maybe and just maybe free trade agreements in future.
Joint security (outside threats - far in future). Include other countries (Bangladesh, Bhutan Sri Lanka). A mini UN for Asia and rightly so as almost 22% live in these countries? I haven't added China to the mix.....

Please no trolling.. would like to have clean debate.

 

[NirmalKrish]

No ones here to vent and no ones looking for war. Pakistan does not want to snatch Kashmir believe it or not, but you as an Indian don't seem sensitive to their problem, I only ever sense anger or ruthlessness.

Sure that statement is like writing what you said on water! can never be achieved!

 

[Joe Shearer]

I normally don't take part in such discussions as I think these are useless and nothing comes out of them (the situation is such that both sides are not willing to resolve the matter - there seems to be no middle way). I think for both countries the main driver of holding on to Kashmir is water.

@Joe Shearer and some other members: I admire your knowledge of the subject (historic plus current situation and ability to think rationally). I am glad that some Indian members acknowledge the problem. I am going to try to breakdown the problem and would like your views/opinion. I have a few questions and maybe you and others can discuss:

By reading countless threads on this topic I have come to a conclusion that the Kashmir valley is the part where there seems to be the problem. Correct me if I am wrong (I have limited knowledge on this topic so would like to learn more)?

If the valley is the only part where the problem is then what would it take to have the plebiscite only in this part? Resolve all the other issues such as Sir Creek and Siachen Glacier? Would it be possible to have a middle way and what would that be? I am sure most Indian members will think India has the upper hand and the status quo will be just fine but we need to resolve these issues to enable us for the part below:

I have been thinking about a few points and how they will lift living standards of populace on both sides. I am sure vast majority will not share my thinking and it could be decades if the foundation work is laid today before seeing fruit of it with no skirmishes/conflicts.

Joint/Sharing of intelligence on terrorists.
Getting rid of proxies on both sides (dismantling all non-state actors).
Keep the borders closed with trade and movement from designated points? Maybe and just maybe free trade agreements in future.
Joint security (outside threats - far in future). Include other countries (Bangladesh, Bhutan Sri Lanka). A mini UN for Asia and rightly so as almost 22% live in these countries? I haven't added China to the mix.....

Please no trolling.. would like to have clean debate.

An excellent post - but to tell you the truth, I am not surprised to read it. Clearly, just as there are some sensible, level-headed Indians, there are just that number of Pakistanis.

My suggestion is that you could consider an invitation to a fair mix of both - I can make some suggestions - and have this discussion on a separate thread. The Mods and Think Tank people also have very good minds, and if you want to enjoy a good discussion, you can do that right here on PDF.

Just a suggestion.

I am always willing to respond to your basic request, and reply in my individual capacity and leave you to put those inputs into perspective.

I am delighted that you take this initiative (no, it's not a typo).

Some names (Indian only: if I take any Pakistani names, someone will definitely offer supari for my sorry arse), if you want to adopt my suggestion (there's no reason to, other than to add perspectives)

@hellfire
@jbgt90
@baajey
@nair
@Rain Man
@-xXx-
@banvanaxl
@Spectre

There are at least half-a-dozen more.

 

[Shah01]

Thank you.

My suggestion is that you could consider an invitation to a fair mix of both - I can make some suggestions - and have this discussion on a separate thread. The Mods and Think Tank people also have very good minds, and if you want to enjoy a good discussion, you can do that right here on PDF.

Yes that is a very good idea. I will tag @WAJsal and he may be able to suggest others.

 

[Spectre]

its been an honor to be called "idiot" by you sir, as apparently you are sitting at the helm of policy making.
i see that u are one of the ppl who believe all the govt agencies in india (top to bottom) are as benign as mother india herself. just because some less than benign ppl donning the uniform having the logo of indian army doesnt elevate them to the level of sam manekshaw, we should not assume the same in case of kashmir ( or any other place for the matter).
but apart from this "giving giving" notion of yours, which is also somewhat idiotic notion as well, i see nothing on ur post to comment or discuss.
u may miss mrs gandhi, but guess what, she was neither a notional hapazhard as u are, nor she is coming back.

1. When you talk about removing AFSPA you are endorsing a stand which effects the whole of army. So your point about considering few individuals is misplaced. Then again extrapolating the same you mean to suggest that army is either not capable or not willing to clean house internally when you talk about revoking AFSPA. Neither Maneskshaw nor the ketchup colonels are representative of Army, in fact individuals are often irrelevant in army. Army was, is and will remain a indivisible unit.

2. While you are quick to sympathise with terrorists using violence against Indian state by colouring them as heartbroken thus indicating systematic abuse by republic of India against its own people you fail to account for disproportionate amount of civic, monetary, security and political resources consumed by the gaping maw which is Kashmir. Do you understand that for every extra rupee GoI has to spend on Kasmir to mollify their religiously coloured affectations, someone else is deprived of their share? Why exactly should Kashmiris get proportionately more resources than Orissa or Jharkhand? Their behaviour is like tantrum throwing child - and the correct way to deal with them is to give some tough love. As I told @Joe Shearer yesterday - in pcrinciple they should get the same treatment as Khalsistanis, Nagas, Mizos and Maoists get when they take up arms against state as they are doing now even if the arms are as benign as stones. If they wish to talk within our constitutional framework then they can be entertained but all this Pakistan cheering, India denouncing, stone throwing behaviour on the pretext of them deserving special treatment just because they are Muslim majority is detestable and should be treated with contempt.

3. At no time did I wish for return of IG but just expressed my fondness for the courage she possessed for tough decisions when and where the matters of national security were at stake.

 

[baajey]

1. When you talk about removing AFSPA you are endorsing a stand which effects the whole of army. So your point about considering few individuals is misplaced. Then again extrapolating the same you mean to suggest that army is either not capable or not willing to clean house internally when you talk about revoking AFSPA. Neither Maneskshaw nor the ketchup colonels are representative of Army, in fact individuals are often irrelevant in army. Army was, is and will remain a indivisible unit.

2. While you are quick to sympathise with terrorists using violence against Indian state by colouring them as heartbroken thus indicating systematic abuse by republic of India against its own people you fail to account for disproportionate amount of civic, monetary, security and political resources consumed by the gaping maw which is Kashmir. Do you understand that for every extra rupee GoI has to spend on Kasmir to mollify their religiously coloured affectations, someone else is deprived of their share? Why exactly should Kashmiris get proportionately more resources than Orissa or Jharkhand? Their behaviour is like tantrum throwing child - and the correct way deal is to give some tough love. As I told @Joe Shearer yesterday - in principle they should get the same treatment as Khalsistanis, Nagas, Mizos and Maoists get when they take up arms against state as they are doing now even if the arms are as benign as stones. If they wish to talk within our constitutional framework then they can be entertained but all this Pakistan cheering, India denouncing, stone throwing behaviour on the pretext of them deserving special treatment just because they are Muslim majority is detestable and should be treated with contempt.

3. At no time did I wish for return of IG but just expressed my fondness for the courage she possessed for tough decisions when and where the matters of national security were at stake.

i have a few observations on ur points. will reply when i get home. office work killing me.

 

[Daghalodi]

i have a few observations on ur points. will reply when i get home. office work killing me.

Hahahah drive safe

 

[baajey]

Hahahah drive safe

bhai, i am still in office. cant escape its clutched till 6
btw, are u from assam ? curious to see the "halodi" in ur id.

 

[Daghalodi]

So sir I'm from Pakistan not from India

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. When you talk about removing AFSPA you are endorsing a stand which effects the whole of army. So your point about considering few individuals is misplaced. Then again extrapolating the same you mean to suggest that army is either not capable or not willing to clean house internally when you talk about revoking AFSPA. Neither Maneskshaw nor the ketchup colonels are representative of Army, in fact individuals are often irrelevant in army. Army was, is and will remain a indivisible unit.

2. While you are quick to sympathise with terrorists using violence against Indian state by colouring them as heartbroken thus indicating systematic abuse by republic of India against its own people you fail to account for disproportionate amount of civic, monetary, security and political resources consumed by the gaping maw which is Kashmir. Do you understand that for every extra rupee GoI has to spend on Kasmir to mollify their religiously coloured affectations, someone else is deprived of their share? Why exactly should Kashmiris get proportionately more resources than Orissa or Jharkhand? Their behaviour is like tantrum throwing child - and the correct way to deal with them is to give some tough love. As I told @Joe Shearer yesterday - in pcrinciple they should get the same treatment as Khalsistanis, Nagas, Mizos and Maoists get when they take up arms against state as they are doing now even if the arms are as benign as stones. If they wish to talk within our constitutional framework then they can be entertained but all this Pakistan cheering, India denouncing, stone throwing behaviour on the pretext of them deserving special treatment just because they are Muslim majority is detestable and should be treated with contempt.

3. At no time did I wish for return of IG but just expressed my fondness for the courage she possessed for tough decisions when and where the matters of national security were at stake.

The Balm of Gilead........

 

[Spectre]

The Balm of Gilead........

Nah. More like a chyawanprash.

 

[dray]

@Joe Shearer I will reply in the late evening, it needs a long post to say how I see it...and probable solution..

 

[Kao Boy]

No ones here to vent and no ones looking for war. Pakistan does not want to snatch Kashmir believe it or not, but you as an Indian don't seem sensitive to their problem, I only ever sense anger or ruthlessness.

Is Pakistan sensitive to plight of Azad Kashmiris or Balochistan. Look you got to be worrying about the ongoing Zarb E Azab and stop poking nose when you yourself not stable enough to stand clear of the Terrorism. I mean Mr Nawaz has all the time in the world to talk about Kashmiris plight but does he really sit back and think about Why Pakistan has so heavily guarded Azad Kashmir Borders and if you have then still why infiltration happens on LOC from your end...

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer I will reply in the late evening, it needs a long post to say how I see it...and probable solution..

Oh, no hurry. Our host isn't ready yet. I thought we'd wait for him to set the terms of reference. But I suppose there will be those among us who will want to go beyond those.

No ones here to vent and no ones looking for war. Pakistan does not want to snatch Kashmir believe it or not, but you as an Indian don't seem sensitive to their problem, I only ever sense anger or ruthlessness.

I can assure you, on my honour, this is NOT true. If I were to reveal my outside identity, and if you were to inspect my dealings with our Kashmiri friends, you would see that, while trying my best to get them thinking on lines of positive and meaningful engagement, there is no lack of sympathy, or of shared pain, embarrassment and humiliation. They have brought it on themselves, collectively, but it still hurts to see what happens to individuals on occasion.

There are many of us, Muslim and Hindu (and Sikh and Christian), not Kashmiris, who think alike. You have to look a little harder to find us, because we are usually not to be found shouting at you in this forum at the tops of our voices.