A new vision of India that is 100% Hindu

[Joe Shearer]

@ranjeet sir with due respect not Christians or Muslims have announced any ghar wapsi scheme RSS is only getting bashed because of it's slogans like ghar wapsi if RSS starts it silently like others i am sure no one will gave a damn.I think RSS is not going for mass conversion it just want's to catch a huge fame in name of religion in Hindu masses.

If I might answer, even though your post was addressed to @ranjeet , this scheme is objectionable, because it seems to have official backing, and the influence of the state. In reality, there may be no such thing, but because of the RSS' close association with the BJP, and because of the BJP being in power, the entire thing gets distorted, causes suspicion and creates tension. Furthermore, the RSS or whichever part of the Parivar is responsible for this egregious initiative, is doing things in a very clumsy way, leading to suspicion of coercion and forced conversions.

 

[doppelganger]

Furthermore, the RSS or whichever part of the Parivar is responsible for this egregious initiative, is doing things in a very clumsy way, leading to suspicion of coercion and forced conversions.

As opposed to the practiced finesse and smoothness of the Muslims and the Christians perhaps, sir? Polished over centuries of this fine initiative on foreign soils on indigenous natives?

 

[doppelganger]

No, we are.

Jinnah allowed us to get separated from uncivilized barbarians who take bath is toilet-water (ganga), eat dogs, worship black monkeys and stones, and burn people alive for being "lower caste"

Jinnah and our founding fathers divided india, separated us from these uncultured backward barbarians, and then..as @Horus said...we put a massive radioactive wall between us and those barbarians to the East. Then we went ahead and created a 700,000+ men military machine to act as guards along our radioactive wall.

Hence, in this way, we separated ourselves from barbarian peoples and protected our superior culture and civilization.

So believe me--we are much more thankful for Jinnah.

Chalo truce. We are both thankful to the same great man.

You have barbarians on your east.

We have them on the west.

 

[Joe Shearer]

But I am not speaking about religion in its narrower scope or span at all. But on a far broader societal, cultural and indeed civilizational one.



Hindutva as preached by the RSS and propounded in their official manifestos by the BJP has always been about the inclusive heritage of cultural nationalism. It matters not whether we pray to Ram or Allah or Guru or Jesus or God by any other name. We are of this land. We have always been of this land. We are all cultural and civilizational Hindus.



There is really nothing very difficult to decipher or any attempt at obscurantism.

The message is pretty clear. This is the ancestral land of the Hindus. It has opened itself to all faiths. That does not change the fact that it is the ancestral land of the Hindus.

Do you disagree with the message? Some of the admittedly crude and crass methods employed? Or do you disagree with the direction you see the nation being steered toward now?

It was never the ancestral land of the Hindus exclusively, but of others as well, and it is a travesty of truth to pretend that those others were honorary Hindus. It was never opened up to all faiths voluntarily, so making that statement is hypocritical. Buddhists were known as heretics throughout the period of Buddhist prevalence as a major religion in India. Let us not now try to re-write history and the actual facts.

The message is not a legitimate message. Nobody has given the message authority, nor has anyone the authority to represent it as binding. The whole mess is disgusting, message, method of delivery and direction.

It is precisely this kind of mindless behaviour that sets off that other set of clownish bigots that have been sounding off.

As opposed to the practiced finesse and smoothness of the Muslims and the Christians perhaps, sir? Polished over centuries of this fine initiative on foreign soils on indigenous natives?

No, they are as crude as the current set of yobs.

There is little to choose between these barbarians, except that the latest lot to arrive on the scene add to the cacophony.

 

[samv]

Allah is not going to be questioned about what He does; you and I will be questioned about what we do. He has warned us of punishment, though He can forgive us if He pleases.

Children are not morally responsible, and are excused for their actions, along with insane people.

As for sane and rational men and women, they are sent to burn in Hell, or not, based on their actions and choices in this life; if they received a warning of Hellfire, and they still chose to ignore it, they will face the consequences of their decisions in the next life. They could be punished or forgiven, as Allah pleases.

There will be a Day of Judgement when the justice of these punishments will be made clear, and those being punished will regret what they did in the life of this world.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (Quran, 5:116-118, Surat Al-Ma'idah - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

So you can take the warning or not! It's up to you. You will have to answer for your decision, and I will have to answer for mine.

Doesn't matter what you say, sending men women and children to burn in agony for eternity is absolutely cruel and barbaric. So is sending tsunamis, earthquakes and floods that kill thousands.

 

[Bang Galore]

If I might answer, even though your post was addressed to @ranjeet , this scheme is objectionable, because it seems to have official backing, and the influence of the state. In reality, there may be no such thing, but because of the RSS' close association with the BJP, and because of the BJP being in power, the entire thing gets distorted, causes suspicion and creates tension. Furthermore, the RSS or whichever part of the Parivar is responsible for this egregious initiative, is doing things in a very clumsy way, leading to suspicion of coercion and forced conversions.

You misunderstand the reason for the brazenness. The idea is not necessarily to convert (it's not something that most Hindus are comfortable with), it is to bring the topic dead right & center so that there will be pressure either towards an anti-conversion law or more likely, increased state intervention in all attempts at conversion. After all, no government can block the Hindu groups from doing it & not then block Christian groups from doing the same without opening themselves up to criticism.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You misunderstand the reason for the brazenness. The idea is not necessarily to convert (it's not something that most Hindus are comfortable with), it is to bring the topic dead right & center so that there will be pressure either towards an anti-conversion law or more likely, increased state intervention in all attempts at conversion. After all, no government can block the Hindu groups from doing it & not then block Christian groups from doing the same without opening themselves up to criticism.

Actually, just between you and me and the lamp-post, if you have been accosted at your own door-step by a troupe of Jehovah's Witness missionaries (in Bengaluru, you might well have been; I was) or if you have to suffer the oiliness of the Tabligh-i Jamaat preachers, you will wish that the two main proselytising religions would STFU.

Coming to your comments, you are obviously right, and just as obviously, I feel insecure both at the prospect of an anti-conversion law, and at increased state intervention. There is already excessive moral policing; we could do without this additional layer.

 

[doppelganger]

It was never the ancestral land of the Hindus exclusively, but of others as well

Sir, India was always Hindu. There was no other ancient faith before Hinduism in India. And India continued to be predominantly Hindu for its entire recorded history, including in the past thousand years of foreign conquests and invasions. Even after a thousand years, the subcontinent still has a billion Hindus, and even after a thousand years of conversions, forced overt or devious, Islam and Christianity, non-dharmic foreign faiths, have not crossed half that number.

So yes, if there is a single ancestral faith on a soil amongst a people for thousands of years, and is a living thriving faith unbroken largely unchanged faith practiced by the majority of the people, then it is the resident primary ancestral faith of that land, and will be afforded that distinction whether some agree with it, like it, can live with it or not.

and it is a travesty of truth to pretend that those others were honorary Hindus.

Cultural and civilizational were the words I employed. A common heritage. Claimed equally. Honorary is condescending, implying a lesser of equals, and that is not my intention.

It was never opened up to all faiths voluntarily, so making that statement is hypocritical.

Not at all. Even if it was not opened to Islam voluntarily or peacefully, the fact is that followers of Islam were never or are not now persecuted or treated as second class citizens. This is their land as much as it is ours. But they cannot deny that they were Hindus once, can they? Or do you buy into the myth that every sub-continental Muslim sprang forth directly from Turkic loins?

The message is not a legitimate message. Nobody has given the message authority, nor has anyone the authority to represent it as binding. The whole mess is disgusting, message, method of delivery and direction.

It is precisely this kind of mindless behaviour that sets off that other set of clownish bigots that have been sounding off.

The message was long overdue sir. Believe me, it was. The country wanted the message to go across, even if a few of you did not. That is why you saw the BJP win the landslide it did. Do not kid yourself that it was primarily on the plank of development. None of us are that naive.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Joe Shearer

Have you by any chance read the book "India - A Sacred Geography" By Diana L. Eck (Professor of comparative religion & Indian studies at Harvard university, Master of Lowell House & Director of the Pluralism Project) ? Good read on the connection between the land (India/Bharat) & Hinduism.

@doppelganger

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir, India was always Hindu. There was no other ancient faith before Hinduism in India. And India continued to be predominantly Hindu for its entire recorded history, including in the past thousand years of foreign conquests and invasions. Even after a thousand years, the subcontinent still has a billion Hindus, and even after a thousand years of conversions, forced overt or devious, Islam and Christianity, non-dharmic foreign faiths, have not crossed half that number.

We could discuss this if you had even a nodding acquaintance with the facts of the past. I have little to discuss with someone who starts with the argument that there was no other faith before Hinduism in India, in the teeth of all the evidence. As for the rest, you are making the usual Hindutvavadi mistake, assuming that the numbers of those clinging on to a belief is proof or otherwise of the validity of that proposition.

So yes, if there is a single ancestral faith on a soil amongst a people for thousands of years, and is a living thriving faith unbroken largely unchanged faith practiced by the majority of the people, then it is the resident primary ancestral faith of that land, and will be afforded that distinction whether some agree with it, like it, can live with it or not.

The premisses being wrong, the construction of the rest of the argument falls down under its own weight.

Cultural and civilizational were the words I employed. A common heritage. Claimed equally. Honorary is condescending, implying a lesser of equals, and that is not my intention.

I do not know what you are referring to, and am very afraid that somehow the impression has been gained that it makes a material difference.

Not at all. Even if it was not opened to Islam voluntarily or peacefully, the fact is that followers of Islam were never or are not now persecuted or treated as second class citizens. This is their land as much as it is ours. But they cannot deny that they were Hindus once, can they? Or do you buy into the myth that every sub-continental Muslim sprang forth directly from Turkic loins?

That is not the point. The point is that even if every last man were to have been a convert, they have the right to draw themselves apart if they wish to do so. I would personally deprecate it, and would club it with the nonsense of the Two Nation Theory, but it is not for the mentally two dimensioned of the original proponents of the Two Nation Theory to spout this. What follows is suspicious and questionable.

The message was long overdue sir. Believe me, it was. The country wanted the message to go across, even if a few of you did not. That is why you saw the BJP win the landslide it did. Do not kid yourself that it was primarily on the plank of development. None of us are that naive.

Quite clearly the furore over the failure of development initiatives, and the additional furore of the bigotry being displayed being the only working part of the new government's programme shows that what you are saying is wrong, and is self-serving. As for none of 'us' being that naive, that begs the question. Read your own posts.

@Joe Shearer

Have you by any chance read the book "India - A Sacred Geography" By Diana L. Eck (Professor of comparative religion & Indian studies at Harvard university, Master of Lowell House & Director of the Pluralism Project) ? Good read on the connection between the land (India/Bharat) & Hinduism.

@doppelganger

No, it is on my list, but I have not yet bought it, due to the enormous back-log and the pressure to prepare my management lectures. Soon, soon.....

These can be replicated with great ease both for Buddhism and for Jainism. As a matter of fact, I am looking at a proposition which is closely linked to this topic. Just now, it might be indiscreet to discuss the details.

 

[Bang Galore]

Coming to your comments, you are obviously right, and just as obviously, I feel insecure both at the prospect of an anti-conversion law, and at increased state intervention. There is already excessive moral policing; we could do without this additional layer.

While I understand & share your feeling on increased state intervention in what should be a private affair, I have revised my position to some intervention being unavoidable especially in rural areas. Jehovah's Witness missionaries (they bothered my mother till she told them firmly that she didn't believe the world was coming to an end & would they please take their nonsense elsewhere...) in Bangalore & other metros may get some smirks (even those convinced to convert are no problem) but conversions in rural areas & the methods used (99% of conversions are coerced with the use of both direct & indirect allurements) have the potential for a serious law & order problem. Constitutional niceties don't much play a part there. (Case in point - the church deliberately asks its converts from the scheduled castes to lie about their religion on official documents in A.P. to continue to milk reservation benefits, true of other places too. A conflict is brewing both locally with other non-converted SC's as well as nationally with aggressive Hindu groups). A certain amount of state intervention may well be necessary. How that should take place needs to be debated. Head in the sand approach will simply not make this problem go away.

 

[doppelganger]

We could discuss this if you had even a nodding acquaintance with the facts of the past. I have little to discuss with someone who starts with the argument that there was no other faith before Hinduism in India, in the teeth of all the evidence.

No other living thriving faith sir. I leave it to the historians, sociologists and theologians to dissect those long dead, or practiced by much smaller numbers, academically.

As for the rest, you are making the usual Hindutvavadi mistake, assuming that the numbers of those clinging on to a belief is proof or otherwise of the validity of that proposition.

Why would you think numbers do not count? Ever person has his or her own belief. And in a democracy like ours, my belief is equal to yours, because you have one vote, and so do I, and so does a rickshaw walla or a bawarchi or a bai. We are the sum total of all these Indians sir. And the sum total of all these Indians decides what they want India to be, who they want India to be ruled by, and where they want India to go.

The premisses being wrong, the construction of the rest of the argument falls down under its own weight.

The premise is that India is the ancestral home of the Hindus and of Hinduism.

To expand on it further, it is also the ancestral home of Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. All dharmic faiths, indigeneous to the soil, the the cultural and social and spiritual DNA of the land and its people.

Not so Islam or Christianity. They are not from this land. Their followers are.

I do not know what you are referring to, and am very afraid that somehow the impression has been gained that it makes a material difference.

You presumed that I was calling non Hindus "honorary" Hindus. I never did. I corrected you with what I actually called them. That is what I was referring to. One is condescending, implying superiority of still active believer versus ancestral believer, now departed the flock. The other puts aside the belief system and stresses the equality of shared heritage and culture. The RSS and BJP's Hidutva of cultural nationalism.

That is not the point. The point is that even if every last man were to have been a convert, they have the right to draw themselves apart if they wish to do so.

Nobody is stopping a Muslim or a Christian from saying or believing that they are apart from or different to us.

Just as nobody should come in the way of us calling them our own.

You cannot be a liberal for one set, and a Talib for the other, sir.

Quite clearly the furore over the failure of development initiatives, and the additional furore of the bigotry being displayed being the only working part of the new government's programme shows that what you are saying is wrong, and is self-serving.

Sir the furore is in the media. Look around you.

@Bang Galore

For the sake of the discussion, can you share some of the salient premises of the book please.

Ancient faiths always had a strong affinity for bloodlines and purity of lineage, unlike the comparatively newer faiths which sought to grow inorganically. Could possibly be a cyclical thing faiths go through and maybe Hinduism too in its younger days actively converted like Islam or Christianity. I know people always bring in the example of SE Asia when people say that Hindus do not convert. Who knows.

All I know is that Hindus are having a bit of a catharsis under the BJP right now. I do not see any violence. I do not see an bloodshed. So no sense in people getting their chuddies all twisted in knots over it.

 

[Bang Galore]

No, it is on my list, but I have not yet bought it, due to the enormous back-log and the pressure to prepare my management lectures. Soon, soon.....

These can be replicated with great ease both for Buddhism and for Jainism. As a matter of fact, I am looking at a proposition which is closely linked to this topic. Just now, it might be indiscreet to discuss the details.

Interesting stuff about the boundaries of India as given in Hindu texts and about the very interesting exchange of letters that the much maligned Nehru had with Chinese Premier Chou En-lai on where the borders lay where in response to China's claim of historical backing for its position, Nehru asserted scriptural sanction for the antiquity of India's claim using for reference -the Vishnu Purana, the Rig veda, the Kena Upanishad, the Mahabharata, Arthashastra of Kautilya ,the Raghuvamsa and Kumarasambhava of Kalidasa (some of the anti-Nehru brigade would have a fit if they knew about it)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Interesting stuff about the boundaries of India as given in Hindu texts and about the very interesting exchange of letters that the much maligned Nehru had with Chinese Premier Chou En-lai on where the borders lay where in response to China's claim of historical backing for its position, Nehru asserted scriptural sanction for the antiquity of India's claim using for reference -the Vishnu Purana, the Rig veda, the Kena Upanishad, the Mahabharata, Arthashastra of Kautilya ,the Raghuvamsa and Kumarasambhava of Kalidasa (some of the anti-Nehru brigade would have a fit if they knew about it)

LOL.

On the other hand, I have had the distasteful experience of a DNA test wielding Apatani who pretended that he didn't know whom the tests had tested, not the Apatani themselves but other races within southern Tibet (NOT the Chinese South Tibet = Arunachal).

You might think of it as a Roland for an Oliver.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Bang Galore

For the sake of the discussion, can you share some of the salient premises of the book please.

Here's the essence as stated on the book

"
In India: A Sacred Geography, renowned Harvard scholar Diana Eck offers an extraordinary spiritual journey through the pilgrimage places of the world's most religiously vibrant culture and reveals that it is, in fact, through these sacred pilgrimages that India's very sense of nation has emerged.

No matter where one goes in India, one will find a landscape in which mountains, rivers, forests, and villages are elaborately linked to the stories of the gods and heroes of Indian culture. Every place in this vast landscape has its story, and conversely, every story of Hindu myth and legend has its place. Likewise, these places are inextricably tied to one another—not simply in the past, but in the present—through the local, regional, and transregional practices of pilgrimage.

India: A Sacred Geography tells the story of the pilgrim's India. In these pages, Diana Eck takes the reader on an extraordinary spiritual journey through the living landscape of this fascinating country –its mountains, rivers, and seacoasts, its ancient and powerful temples and shrines. Seeking to fully understand the sacred places of pilgrimage from the ground up, with their stories, connections and layers of meaning, she acutely examines Hindu religious ideas and narratives and shows how they have been deeply inscribed in the land itself. Ultimately, Eck shows us that from these networks of pilgrimage places, India's very sense of region and nation has emerged. This is the astonishing and fascinating picture of a land linked for centuries not by the power of kings and governments, but by the footsteps of pilgrims.

India: A Sacred Geography offers a unique perspective on India, both as a complex religious culture and as a nation. Based on her extensive knowledge and her many decades of wide-ranging travel and research, Eck's piercing insights and a sweeping grasp of history ensure that this work will be in demand for many years to come."