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A New Freedom Struggle For India

Fundamental questions:
1.Have the secular liberals any idea or will to fight Muslim fanaticism ?
2. Do they really believe mMuslims can be secular and liberal in a democracy?
3. There is a worldwide collaboration of left liberals and the Muslim jihadis….why is it so?
4. Muslims are making multiple mini Pakistan in India and the secular liberals completely ignore the fact. Hindus are forced to leave the area even India in Muslim dominated areas. Why is it so ?
 
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:-)


Disagreement is what makes us human, no one is an absolute authority on any topic. Every statement is debatable which can be disagreed with. It was disagreement / dissatisfaction of human which led to the continuous development of today and to come.

I am frankly not bother with people disagreeing to my POV, as long as it remains with my POV and doesn't involve me, my beliefs, my family or being branded this or that. That is what family background, education and experience makes us, a poor personality is the end product of all three.

Incident like those mentioned prompted me to become the computer guy I am today, and helped me return to my tribal roots.

Never been ashamed of my tribal mindset and it becomes two fold when one is married to a Pashtun Tribal the only daughter of her family and very protective of their only son in law. It's strange when people are paid in the same coin they start begging and pleading. I found it very amusing.

I was just joking about our habit to be over critical about things.
I have no plans to come back to you except for greater insight, either in the form of questions or feedback, only if I feel the need to learn more.

It is the tribal mindset of all the ethnicities of the indus region that make us who we are today. And, I take immense pride in what we were and what we are, that pride isn't blinded by ignorance but stands on facts and reason.

May Allah bless you and your family. Ameen.
 
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I was just joking about our habit to be over critical about things.
I have no plans to come back to you except for greater insight, either in the form of questions or feedback, only if I feel the need to learn more.

It is the tribal mindset of all the ethnicities of the indus region that make us who we are today. And, I take immense pride in what we were and what we are, that pride isn't blinded by ignorance but stands on facts and reason.

May Allah bless you and your family. Ameen.

I know sir, had you been an otherwise person you would have jumped the gun and started doling out labels and fatwas. You would experience the kind here very often and the best solution to them is already written in my signature.

Besides if @Joe Shearer has invited you to comment on such a serious topic which definitely requires above average intellectual predisposition that counts for something.

My earlier bakwas was sort of loud thinking and nothing aimed at you.
 
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Whenever this question comes up, only one argument is brought forth - that of personal laws related to religion and what is a sovereign state's responsibility when it comes to governing these laws.

You will agree that religious personal laws impact only a fraction of an individual's life and its dealings with the state, yet it consumes the majority of the debate when it comes to secularism. Singapore, a state with a similar ethnic and religious diversity as India, does not find it difficult to reconcile personal religious laws and secularism.

Let's not confuse the culpability of the governing parties in India and their inclination as part of the sovereign state to dominate and interfere in all aspects of governance in India (including religious) as somehow indicative that secularism will not work.

Personal laws are brought into the argument because they are a major law and they are the face of an inclusive secular state. Let me tell you the importance of personal law and how, despite bring a fraction of state's dealing, are the most connected of a law with an individual. In Pakistan there was inheritance law and it stated, in accordance to Surah al-Nissa that a grandson will not inherit. In classic islamic law if a person died and his son/daughter had died in his lifetime and had borne a son/daughter then that grandson/grand daughter will not inherit however Pakistan amended this and declared that the principle of return shall be applied where, in case a person dies, his son/daughter who has died, will be deemed to be alive and since the ownership in inheritance transfers the moment the last breath leaves the body thus from that the deceased son and daughter shall be considered as owners and then since they are dead, the Grand son and daughter shall be considered as owners and inheritors. Its a simple principle of return but to this day, it caused a massive debate on how islamic it is. Personal law maybe a fraction of states dealing with the individual but it is the most personal of it and in a collective, it is the most politically sensitive of it.

Are you aware that in singapore, there is great debate on what form of secularism is best for singapore despite it being a laicite secularist state, they still argue whether an inclusive secularist state is better than the exclusive one.

When the state takes the burden of religion on its shoulders, it will interfere in religion and power hungry politicians will try to abuse the religion shouldering for personal gain and personal political gain just like they will do that with the concept of power and politics or ethnicity or any other form. The idea is to strengthen the inclusive nature to this extent that no politician can use that for personal benefit.
First of all we need to understand where we both are coming from. you and i are arguing from two positions where people much better than us are arguing right now on the world stage, where you are arguing for exclusive nature and me for inclusive, in context of India. In the end you guys will have to figure out your own path and there are many forms of secularism. There is an even Islamic form of it and an islamic nationalist form of it and it is studied to this day and secularism and its kinds are argued amongst the political philosophers and thinkers and analysts. I believe that inclusive secularism is the answer for India rather than an exclusive path but the important thing is to keep the debate alive.

I can't speak too intelligently on the current situation in India and the direction politics is taking, my understanding of Indian internal affairs is very limited, and I don't wish to pass off half baked value-judgements as analysis based on limited knowledge.

But it seems to me that the situation described in the article, and what's going in India is not out of the ordinary for any nation-state to experience at some point in the history of their society and polity. Sometimes such majoritarian movements occur more or less organically as a result of conducive socio-economic conditions. Majoritarian undercurrents were always there but they've reached a zenith in modern day India. As the article correctly points out, these sort of movements are multi-layered and one of its hallmarks is a form of anti-intellectualism, anti-elitism, and a rejection of established political norms. It's uncanny how often movements like this conform to the same set of behaviors. And on this note I may have some bad news...

Although I think you are far from passing any Rubicon on rejection of secularism, your majoritarian strain is probably also far from its peak. We in Pakistan arrived at our own issues with majoritarianism in a very different way to India, ours was legislated and forced upon us largely against our will, but it still took decades for the effects to wane, and it took blood-letting and serious moral outrages on a grand scale to light a fire under our collective conscience. If you observe Pakistan's society 20 years ago, and today's post APS, the difference when it comes to societal attitudes and pluralism is likely very large, and reflected in our politics. But that is what it took to shape those who are in the majority themselves.

Given the bleak ending there, @Joe Shearer I'd like to give you a few reasons to be hopeful for your country. First off is that political change and upheaval even if it manifests itself in a negative way is completely normal. India is a huge country, and you have tens of millions of people every year joining your workforce, your polity, reaching political awareness, internet access etc. These conditions cause change, sometimes it can be destablising but a necessary step in political development. Secondly, it is not over yet, as I said earlier, you are nowhere near the point of no return, already the backlash to majoritarianism is there. Not so much in a spirited defence of secularism, but in an angry backlash against perceived majoritarian excesses: the CAA-NRC protests are a good example. Eventually those who are content pushing majoritarianism while in the majoirty will see reason, it may take some time and worsening of the situation to get there, but it will happen. Just pray that it isn't too costly and late.

In the meantime, you are tasked with the difficult and thankless effort of reviving or building anew secularist politics, but this time re-branded with the intent to be used and adopted by ordinary people and not just educated elites. Interesting point here to be made on accessibility to the masses, it's the the trend everywhere. Pick up George Washington's speeches from 200 years ago, their intellectual caliber makes them hard for even us to digest, they were not intended to speak to the labourer or agrarian worker, but today, US presidents speak casual English, and there's evidence (pre-Trump) that the reading levels of Presidential candidates' public speeches has been decreasing over time. Not because they are becoming less able, but because it's based on a willful effort to reach out to ordinary people. How do you break down secularist ideals, constitutionalism and preach the prudence of plurality in politics, in order for these ideals to appeal to the minds of ordinary people? It's a tough question, I can't say I know the answer, but I wish you and your country luck in this endeavor.

Agreed. As Pakistanis, our knowledge will always be more limited in comparison to an Indian living in India and i think the fact that there is a discussion on secularism i.e. Secularism is dead, it needs to be evolved and lets bring new forms of secularism, is the absolute evidence that for Indians, there is still hope that a secular state will emerge from all of this. Look we have people arguing on exclusive and inclusive secularism and what kind is best for India and this is very important since this debate is being led by Indians and they are arguing on what works here and that is a major step. To talk about it and to create discourse on it. All hope is lost when this discussion is dead and India no longer talks about how secularism failed and how it can be revived which is why i sincerely caution from any rash steps and to do it right this time. To figure which form of secularism will appeal to the masses the most and how that secularism will bring benefits or bring harm or what changes it will bring to the national psyche and the entity that is India itself. This understanding is very important for them. Things arent that bad and there is definitely reasons to be upbeat about it. The reason why i advise on inclusive secularism is because India is a democracy and India is extremely diverse. In this nature you must appeal to the masses with what they will want to listen and what they will want to compromise on.
 
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Anybody dying from hunger is not just failure of Govt, but the whole humanity! Nobody helped this woman people around her. This shows how much we have degraded our human values.

That is why we should strive to enable a socialist world where people can live in harmony with each other and the natural ecology.

Your family members have been workers for the Congress party. You seem to support the BJP. Try visiting the state secretariat of one of the socialist groups in India.

Please go through this proposal of mine. A thread about a new economic system I propose.

Now come to GOI, GOI has given financial package and food package to poors in this pandemic time. One must be educated about it how to get these packeges. Every yellow Rashan card holder gets free "Rashan" from govt for every month, if one is not educated about his/her rights, he can't avail help from Govt even help is next to him/her.

Then why did this had to happen :
For more than three months, Michelin-starred chef Vikas Khanna has helped serve 20 million meals to poor Indians facing hunger, from thousands of miles away in the United States.

The Indian-born Khanna, who moved to the US in 2000, started the 'Feed India' campaign in April, after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced a strict coronavirus lockdown, which forced millions out of work, many of them facing hunger.
 
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I know sir, had you been an otherwise person you would have jumped the gun and started doling out labels and fatwas. You would experience the kind here very often and the best solution to them is already written in my signature.

Besides if @Joe Shearer has invited you to comment on such a serious topic which definitely requires above average intellectual predisposition that counts for something.

My earlier bakwas was sort of loud thinking and nothing aimed at you.

Both of you have added significant value to this discussion, and I am really appreciative.

Also the lurking @xeuss, who, to my shame and embarrassment, I did not include in my original tag-list.

Someone very respectable asked for that list, and with the additions of those whom I had left out, it is there to be used asap.
 
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Tolerance and magnanimity was the key once, that made many different people in the Subcontinent coexist together for centuries. We in Pakistan generally don't hate India or Indians, we only despise those who harbor extremist views towards us and others.
Joe Shearer, you are a wise person and a rare diminishing breed among your countrymen, we have a lot of respect for you and hope you will forgive our polemics.

LOL.

There is nothing to forgive, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

This is a new avatar; you are usually armed at all points and ready for mortal combat, but here you are, writing with insight and sensitivity; as I asked that sad lout @Shantanu_Left, of whom I am steadily losing my suspicions, why can't we see this side all the time?
 
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Joe Shearer, you are a wise person and a rare diminishing breed among your countrymen, we have a lot of respect for you and hope you will forgive our polemics.


I suspect many of you will be shocked to know how many millions of Indians share my views, perhaps in a more extreme way than I.

Ask @T90TankGuy; he keeps very quiet but observes, and reads, everything.
Ask @jamahir; although his ideas are ideals, he is the most open-hearted and lofty-minded of the Indian members.
 
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Fundamental questions:
1.Have the secular liberals any idea or will to fight Muslim fanaticism ?

Why not? There may have been initial hesitation, but I believe that the current consensus is that fanaticism of all sorts must be stopped. Right now, right here.

2. Do they really believe Muslims can be secular and liberal in a democracy?

Can't speak for others, but I think so - emphatically. Look at the Muslim Indians on this forum; @Afrazul Mondal has been hurt very badly, and @half Moon is a Muslim bigot as well; but can you say anything negative about the others?

In the first place, why should they be inspected more closely than everyone else?

3. There is a worldwide collaboration of left liberals and the Muslim jihadis….why is it so?

Guilt.

The feeling that Muslim countries had been dealt with very badly, and that the jihadi reaction was natural under the circumstances. That they should be allowed more latitude because of the actions of the West.

Fallacious, but certainly extant.

4. Muslims are making multiple mini Pakistan in India and the secular liberals completely ignore the fact. Hindus are forced to leave the area even India in Muslim dominated areas. Why is it so ?

I'm sorry, this is crap; I have no wish to respond to it.
 
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Why not? There may have been initial hesitation, but I believe that the current consensus is that fanaticism of all sorts must be stopped. Right now, right here.



Can't speak for others, but I think so - emphatically. Look at the Muslim Indians on this forum; @Afrazul Mondal has been hurt very badly, and @half Moon is a Muslim bigot as well; but can you say anything negative about the others?

In the first place, why should they be inspected more closely than everyone else?



Guilt.

The feeling that Muslim countries had been dealt with very badly, and that the jihadi reaction was natural under the circumstances. That they should be allowed more latitude because of the actions of the West.

Fallacious, but certainly extant.



I'm sorry, this is crap; I have no wish to respond to it.

Have you followed the gold smuggling case in Kerala?
The left, the idealogy that you follows , accepted one former SIMI leader in to their ranks .
Give him the chances to come to main stream ,elected as MLA ,then minister of higher education.
Look how much damage he done to the left now.
Corrupted the entire ranks from top to bottom.
Infused night time PFI workers into CPM .
Saved the killers or just neutralised the possibility of punishment of killers of one good SFI cadre Abhimanyu .
You know what he did .
He just violated all protocol, contacted UAE consulate without MEA in loop and imported 4479 kg consignment , no info about sender , nor about receiver .State protocol officer dont have any documents of last two years .

Everything is dodgy .No documents nothing .From his call list he contacted several times the Swapna Suresh main culprit .
When the agencies began to tightens the screw he just hangs on same old persecution drama.


This is the thing happens in this country..
And now everyone wonders why the people are flocking to right wing .
 
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1.Have the secular liberals any idea or will to fight Muslim fanaticism ?
Respect Muslims for being the ones who made India famous all over the world, who brought culture, civilization, laws and commerce to India. Repsect their believes, uphold their personal laws and don't interfere in matters of their religion and you will have peace in your country.

2. Do they really believe mMuslims can be secular and liberal in a democracy?
India is neither secular nor a liberal democracy. But yes, Muslims can be a vital part of democracies too. Look at me, making six figures in Germany and getting along with the Germans pretty well. You know why? Because I am allowed to practice my religion freely and make money here. You don't need more than that. Respect each other and you will be fine. But you want the subjugation of the Indian muslims, this is not possible due to our powerful mindset.

3. There is a worldwide collaboration of left liberals and the Muslim jihadis….why is it so?
I don't know what you mean, leftist ideologies and Islam are like Hinduism and Islam. Not compatible with each other. But some self-hating Muslims think if they align with the lefties, they will get some influence in the West. But this is stupid and counterproductivce.

4. Muslims are making multiple mini Pakistan in India and the secular liberals completely ignore the fact. Hindus are forced to leave the area even India in Muslim dominated areas. Why is it so ?
:D :D :D
Man this is the answer why evil Muslims were able to rule India for so long whilst being in the minority. Amazing :D
 
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And now everyone wonders why the people are flocking to right wing .

If you think the Left in Kerala ( or India even ) has gone corrupt would you be willing to contribute to setting it back on the correct path ?
 
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Jinnah was right on the two nation theory.

All Hindus are bigots inherently.

Secularism is just a cover to hoodwink gullible Muslims.
 
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