A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[INDIC]

I heard that you guys will have some missile named as Tipu.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You are talking of Indus valley and Ganga Valley so surely Urdu is from Ganga Valley. Like you have Muhajirs we too have Sindhis and West Punjabis.

We dont claim muhajir culture? its upto them .... just like its upto the indian punjabis (less than 3% or less than .99% sindhis of india) can claim it,.... but how can a mahrastrian claim IVC or a tamil from kerala claim IVC? what about the rest of india?

 

[indian_jigar]

Yes Chiken tikka,sajji,peshawari naan,kehva etc all originate from india? mate we dont eat dhoklas,sambar,idli,daal paneer etc.. thts ur food!



Haha... even urdu is not spoken and discouraged in india... also it was the lingua franca of the mughal courts? so how can u hindi speaking hindus or the luchknow people who literally rape the urdu language claim it?

No matter how much you try to distort history, its never going to change the fact that Urdu is a language born in UP, India #justsaying

Your troll baits are being wasted on me, find someone else, I only speak facts.

 

[aakash_2410]

I dont claim timur or bin qasim... as for IVC... Learnt people dont consider it "indian" as in modern day india... go to ur nearest library or something...

This is an official GoP website:
http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&r...qrG9DQ&usg=AFQjCNH0A9jyxh05DbpxFHziiiMuRUOrvA


extension into a state of india doesnt mean u can claim it as yours?
]

LMAO! Just watch the documentary 'Story of India', 'Indian civilisation', 'River Indus' past' these are all by neutral sources and they call it Indian?

By the way what credibility does Pakistani government have? Apparently children are taught India is an equatorial country, Pakistanis are descadants of Arabs/Persians/Turks.

Want some irony? People growing up on the eastern side of Indus river think they are not Indians (Indo-Aryans)? So what more can be expected from GoP? GoP is just confusing already confused people in identity crisis.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I heard that you guys will have some missile named as Tipu.

Rumours... nothin true...

 

[indian_jigar]

We dont claim muhajir culture? its upto them .... just like its upto the indian punjabis (less than 3% or less than .99% sindhis of india) can claim it,.... but how can a mahrastrian claim IVC or a tamil from kerala claim IVC? what about the rest of india?

The same way a Balochi like yourself that has nothing to do with Urdu can claim Urdu.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Why you speaking Urdu then, which is a language from UP? Geographically, Urdu has nothing to do with Pakistan.

You've just exposed that you're no linguistic historian at all!

Why is one of the older names for Urdu, Gojari? who are the Gujjars and where do they live?

UP (in fact it was Awadh before the Britsish named part of it United province) was just the last remnant of the Mughal empire, not the first place to spart speaking the latter Mughal court language. Why is such a large part of it's vocabulary from Persian, did the persians originate in the UP?

I admit some of us need more education than others, but them those of us hsouldn't be speaking on the same conference table. Why don't you focus on things you actually know rather than allowing your nationalism make you blindly post everywhere? thank you.

 

[Rusty]

They did have the same religion!

Some Indus valley seals show swastikas, which are found in other religions (worldwide), especially in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The earliest evidence for elements of Hinduism are alleged to have been present before and during the early Harappan period.[59] Phallic symbols interpreted as the much later Hindu Shiva lingam have been found in the Harappan remains.[60][61]

They did have the same religion and languages!

Swastika Seals from the Indus Valley Civilization preserved at the British Museum.
Many Indus valley seals show animals. One motif shows a horned figure seated in a posture reminiscent of the Lotus position and surrounded by animals was named by early excavators Pashupati (lord of cattle), an epithet of the later Hindu gods Shiva and Rudra.

I'm pretty sure these are Hindu deities?

But we are Aryans? (Indo-Aryans?)
You point would be valid for Drividian (South Indian) but 80% Indians are Indo-Aryans!

Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nazis used swastikas, does that make them Indian too?

And they could not have spoken the same language. It's impossible. They spoke a form of Dravidian language that got wiped out by invading Aryans who forced Sanskrit on the people. Proof of this being that there is still a small minority in Baluchistan who speak a Dravidian language.

And they could not have had the same religion since all of the Vedas were written in Sanskrit.
So IVC did not speak Sanskrit, due to the fact that Aryan invaders has not invaded yet. No invaders means no Vedas means not the same religion.

 

[INDIC]

We dont claim muhajir culture?

Really.

just like its upto the indian punjabis (less than 3% or less than .99% sindhis of india) can claim it,.... but how can a mahrastrian claim IVC or a tamil from kerala claim IVC? what about the rest of india?

List of Indus Valley Civilization sites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You've just exposed that you're no linguistic historian at all!

Why is one of the older names for Urdu, Gojari? who are the Gujjars and where do they live?

UP (in fact it was Awadh before the Britsish named part of it United province) was just the last remnant of the Mughal empire, not the first place to spart speaking the latter Mughal court language. Why is such a large part of it's vocabulary from Persian, did the persians originate in the UP?

I admit some of us need more education than others, but them those of us hsouldn't be speaking on the same conference table. Why don't you focus on things you actually know rather than allowing your nationalism make you blindly post everywhere? thank you.

Just like people of IVC were Buddhist. Urdu is an Indian language from Ganga Valley, its not the heritage of Punjabis. You have your Punjabi language in Shahmukhi script.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I have a feeling you are here to troll and dont really care about debating, so I wont waste my time with you no more.

Going by your definition, Urdu, Tipu Sultan, Mughals, Mohammed Bin Qasim, and many others are not Pakistani because geographically they have nothing to do with Pakistan.

Bottom line is stop stealing our civilization, you will have better luck convincing the French that the French language belongs to Pakistan.

You are the one here to troll, not me. Huh, what definition is that? Islamic history is a part of our religion. Civilizations that were geographically based on our land are the part of the history of our land. The history of our ancestors belongs to us through blood.

We are not stealing your history, I don't care about you or your heritage.

Many of us Indians study Sanskrit till class 8th or 10th or 12th depending upon the choice.

You are talking of Indus valley and Ganga Valley so surely Urdu is from Ganga Valley. Like you have Muhajirs we too have Sindhis and West Punjabis.

I don't care about Indians studying Sanskrit, like I said earlier, I have never met an Indian that spoke Sanskrit.

Urdu developed under the Mughal Empire & has contributions made to it from every portion of the Sub-Continent. In any case we do have our ethnic provincial languages.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

LMAO! Just watch the documentary 'Story of India', 'Indian civilisation', 'River Indus' past' these are all by neutral sources and they call it Indian?

I dont know what ur talkin abt:


Indus Civilization

This land also witnessed the glorious era of Indus civilization about 8000 years B.C when the first village was found at Mehargarh in the Sibi District of Balochistan comparable with the earliest villages of Jericho in Palestine and Jarmo in Iraq. Here, during the last decade i.e., 1980’s, the French and Pakistani archaeologists have excavated mud built houses of the Mehargarh people and their agricultural land known for the cultivation of maize and wheat, together with polished stone tools, beads and other ornaments, painted jars and bowls, drinking glasses, dishes and plates.


Site of Moenjodaro

The archaeologists believe that by 7000 B.C., the Mehargarh people learnt to use the metal for the first time. From the first revolution of agricultural life the man moved to another great revolution in his social, cultural and economic life. He established trade relations with the people of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Iran and the Arab world. He not only specialized in painting different designs of pottery, made varieties of pots and used cotton and wool but also made terracotta figurines and imported precious stones from Afghanistan and Central Asia. This early bronze age Culture spread out in the countryside of Sindh, Balochistan, Punjab and North West Frontier Province of Pakistan.
Indus Art Gallery


Priest King of Moenjodaro








Indus Art Gallery












This early beginning led to the concentration of population into the small towns, such as Kot Diji in Sindh and Rahman Dheri in Dera Ismail Khan district. It is this social and cultural exchange that led to the rise of the famous cities of Moenjodaro and Harappa, with largest concentration of population including artisans, craftsmen, businessmen and rulers.This culminated in the peak of the Indus Civilization which was primarily based on intensively irrigated agricultural land and overseas trade and contact with Iran, Gulf States, Mesopotamia and Egypt. Dames were built for storing river water, land was cultivated by means of bullock-harnessed plough - a system which still prevails in Pakistan, granaries for food storage were built, furnace was used for controlling temperature for

Indus Seal of Bull

making red pottery and various kinds of ornaments, beads of carnelian, agate, and terracotta were pierced through and above all they traded their finished goods with Central Asia and Arab world. It is these trade dividends that enriched the urban populace who developed a new sense of moral honesty, discipline and cleanliness combined with a social stratification in which the priests and the mercantile class dominated the society. The picture of high civilization can be gathered only by looking at the city of Moenjodaro, the First Planned City in the World, in which the streets are aligned straight, parallel to each other with cross streets cutting at right angles. It is through these wide streets that wheeled carriages, drawn by bulls or *****, moved about, carrying well-adorned persons seated on them appreciating the closely aligned houses made of pucca-bricks, all running straight along the streets. And then through the middle of the streets ran stone dressed drains covered with stone slabs - a practice of keeping the streets clean from polluted water, seen for the first time in the world.

The legacy of our predecessors at the time of our independence, on August 14, 1947, came to us as a treasure which may be called as Pakistan’s national heritage. So rich and diversified is this heritage that Pakistani nation can be proud of its glorious past, be Islamic, Post Islamic or pre-Islamic period as far back as pre-historic times. No other country of the world can produce the treasure of by gone days as can be found in Pakistan. It is now incumbent upon us to treasure our national heritage and save it from further deterioration and theft.

The establishment of NFCH is much appreciated and a great interest is shown by the general public hence since its establishment in 1994 hundreds of proposals were received from different agencies and individuals for the conservation, preservation and publication of the Pakistan’s national heritage. It is hoped that with the continued patronage of the government, the Philanthropists and the Business Community to the NFCH we shall be able to achieve the aforesaid goal.

By the way what credibility does Pakistani government have? Apparently children are taught India is an equatorial country, Pakistanis are descadants of Arabs/Persians/Turks.

Want some irony? People growing up on the eastern side of Indus river think they are not Indians (Indo-Aryans)? So what more can be expected from GoP? GoP is just confusing already confused people in identity crisis.

Usual indian rants... how many people on PDF are claiming to be persians or turks? Rafi,Omar etc all proud punjabis...Abu zulfiqar,Pukhtoon,taimikhan etc all proud pashtuns... emmie,T-Faz,oscar etc proud sindhis,Irfan baluch,Pak Nationalist,gwadary etc all proud Baluch... Doctor,armstrong,mariakhan etc proud kashmiris...


Stop hallucinating..

LMAO! Just watch the documentary 'Story of India', 'Indian civilisation', 'River Indus' past' these are all by neutral sources and they call it Indian?

I dont know what ur talkin abt:


Indus Civilization

This land also witnessed the glorious era of Indus civilization about 8000 years B.C when the first village was found at Mehargarh in the Sibi District of Balochistan comparable with the earliest villages of Jericho in Palestine and Jarmo in Iraq. Here, during the last decade i.e., 1980’s, the French and Pakistani archaeologists have excavated mud built houses of the Mehargarh people and their agricultural land known for the cultivation of maize and wheat, together with polished stone tools, beads and other ornaments, painted jars and bowls, drinking glasses, dishes and plates.


Site of Moenjodaro

The archaeologists believe that by 7000 B.C., the Mehargarh people learnt to use the metal for the first time. From the first revolution of agricultural life the man moved to another great revolution in his social, cultural and economic life. He established trade relations with the people of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Iran and the Arab world. He not only specialized in painting different designs of pottery, made varieties of pots and used cotton and wool but also made terracotta figurines and imported precious stones from Afghanistan and Central Asia. This early bronze age Culture spread out in the countryside of Sindh, Balochistan, Punjab and North West Frontier Province of Pakistan.
Indus Art Gallery


Priest King of Moenjodaro








Indus Art Gallery












This early beginning led to the concentration of population into the small towns, such as Kot Diji in Sindh and Rahman Dheri in Dera Ismail Khan district. It is this social and cultural exchange that led to the rise of the famous cities of Moenjodaro and Harappa, with largest concentration of population including artisans, craftsmen, businessmen and rulers.This culminated in the peak of the Indus Civilization which was primarily based on intensively irrigated agricultural land and overseas trade and contact with Iran, Gulf States, Mesopotamia and Egypt. Dames were built for storing river water, land was cultivated by means of bullock-harnessed plough - a system which still prevails in Pakistan, granaries for food storage were built, furnace was used for controlling temperature for

Indus Seal of Bull

making red pottery and various kinds of ornaments, beads of carnelian, agate, and terracotta were pierced through and above all they traded their finished goods with Central Asia and Arab world. It is these trade dividends that enriched the urban populace who developed a new sense of moral honesty, discipline and cleanliness combined with a social stratification in which the priests and the mercantile class dominated the society. The picture of high civilization can be gathered only by looking at the city of Moenjodaro, the First Planned City in the World, in which the streets are aligned straight, parallel to each other with cross streets cutting at right angles. It is through these wide streets that wheeled carriages, drawn by bulls or *****, moved about, carrying well-adorned persons seated on them appreciating the closely aligned houses made of pucca-bricks, all running straight along the streets. And then through the middle of the streets ran stone dressed drains covered with stone slabs - a practice of keeping the streets clean from polluted water, seen for the first time in the world.

The legacy of our predecessors at the time of our independence, on August 14, 1947, came to us as a treasure which may be called as Pakistan’s national heritage. So rich and diversified is this heritage that Pakistani nation can be proud of its glorious past, be Islamic, Post Islamic or pre-Islamic period as far back as pre-historic times. No other country of the world can produce the treasure of by gone days as can be found in Pakistan. It is now incumbent upon us to treasure our national heritage and save it from further deterioration and theft.

The establishment of NFCH is much appreciated and a great interest is shown by the general public hence since its establishment in 1994 hundreds of proposals were received from different agencies and individuals for the conservation, preservation and publication of the Pakistan’s national heritage. It is hoped that with the continued patronage of the government, the Philanthropists and the Business Community to the NFCH we shall be able to achieve the aforesaid goal.

By the way what credibility does Pakistani government have? Apparently children are taught India is an equatorial country, Pakistanis are descadants of Arabs/Persians/Turks.

Want some irony? People growing up on the eastern side of Indus river think they are not Indians (Indo-Aryans)? So what more can be expected from GoP? GoP is just confusing already confused people in identity crisis.

Usual indian rants... how many people on PDF are claiming to be persians or turks? Rafi,Omar etc all proud punjabis...Abu zulfiqar,Pukhtoon,taimikhan etc all proud pashtuns... emmie,T-Faz,oscar etc proud sindhis,Irfan baluch,Pak Nationalist,gwadary etc all proud Baluch... Doctor,armstrong,mariakhan etc proud kashmiris...


Stop hallucinating..

 

[Rusty]

You are the one here to troll, not me. Huh, what definition is that? Islamic history is a part of our religion. Civilizations that were geographically based on our land are the part of the history of our land. The history of our ancestors belongs to us through blood.

We are not stealing your history, I don't care about you or your heritage.

That is pretty much the problem here.
Their insecurities are forcing them to cast doubt on our heritage, while we could not care less about them.

 

[indian_jigar]

You've just exposed that you're no linguistic historian at all!

Why is one of the older names for Urdu, Gojari? who are the Gujjars and where do they live?

UP (in fact it was Awadh before the Britsish named part of it United province) was just the last remnant of the Mughal empire, not the first place to spart speaking the latter Mughal court language. Why is such a large part of it's vocabulary from Persian, did the persians originate in the UP?

I admit some of us need more education than others, but them those of us hsouldn't be speaking on the same conference table. Why don't you focus on things you actually know rather than allowing your nationalism make you blindly post everywhere? thank you.

I feel you are all over the place with your rebuttal. Even if Urdu is Persian/Turkic, it still has nothing to do with Pakistan geographically. Geographically, Urdu is a language born in UP, if you are going to dispute that then there is nothing that can be said as you are going against something which is commonly known among all Historians, Indian or Pakistani. It is a language for North Indian Muslims that was adopted by Pakistan, but GEOGRAPHICALLY it has nothing to do with Pakistan.

 

[aakash_2410]

Nazis used swastikas, does that make them Indian too?

And they could not have spoken the same language. It's impossible. They spoke a form of Dravidian language that got wiped out by invading Aryans who forced Sanskrit on the people. Proof of this being that there is still a small minority in Baluchistan who speak a Dravidian language.

And they could not have had the same religion since all of the Vedas were written in Sanskrit.
So IVC did not speak Sanskrit, due to the fact that Aryan invaders has not invaded yet. No invaders means no Vedas means not the same religion.

Nazis had Lord Shiva,Pashupatinath and Rudra's statues too?

Just google the 'religion in IVC'.

Exactly! You're clarifying my point for me! All the north Indian languages (Indo-Aryan languages) are derived from Sanskrit. All of them are derivation of Sanskrit/Prakrit (language of Aryans).

Substratum in Vedic Sanskrit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Bronze_Age

 

[jbond197]

It's your mind that is twisted & it's your geography that is retarded, not mine. Take a look at the map of IVC. It centers around the Indus & the Indus is today in modern day Pakistan.

As i said, history got nothing to do with the recent Political events. Also I mentioned before there is more to IVC then two cities. Apart from that look at the findings at the sites, the existence of Swastika, Shiva/Pashuathy, Mother goddess, Stone lingams from Mohenzodharo etc proves the connect with the people of other area of the lands of Ancient India.

Normal IVC town were divided into 2 parts.
(1) Raised citadel- meant for elite, rulers dwellings.
(2) Lower town- common people lived.

Dholavira is the only Indus city with 3 parts- Middle town was extra feature.

Kotdiji, Amri, Harappa, Kalibangan and Banwali are associated with Pre-Harappan.

Harappa, Mohenzodharo, Kalibangan, Lothal - Matured Phase of civilization.

Rangpur, Rojdi, Rakhigarhi, -later phase.

People lived there and moved to other places or perished due to rivers drying up and the civilization collapsed in 1900 BC. The continuity of the practices of people does show a huge connect between the people of the land..

Also, show us one Historian/Archeologists worth his salt who would have said IVC is Pakistani. On the other hand, there are plenty who rightfully associate it with India.