A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[p(-)0ENiX]

Not a particular religions. That is loathsome, bigotry.

Are you referring to that member's hatred for Christianity again? If you are, then I agree that that is bigotry. All religions are represented by their followers, dumb followers will naturally give out a dumb impression of their religion. As in the case of those stupid Mullahs who keep crying & calling for the "sharia" law in Europe.

But I oppose ALL religion as cynically contrived deceptions of humanity. Let us agree to dîffer. There is no common meeting ground on that issue.

Alright, no problem, everyone is free to have their own views on religions.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

^^

Since these arrows point towards my post #418, do you mean to say that you disagree with Pakistan taking pride in its Indo-Aryan heritage & that the country should focus on the IVC alone?

I would say that Punjabi's and Sindhi's have the primary rights over IVC. The two epicentres of IVC, Harrapa is in Punjab and Mohenjo Daro is in Sindh. However no civilization will fit cleanly into modern borders. Secondary influences can be seen over the border in Afghanistan and India.

At a tertiery level the effects and influences of this civilization would have gone well beyond the Indus Valley. In that sense Indian's can claim to have been within the magnetic pull of IVC. We in Pakistan should not have any problem with that as long as Indian's recognize that the Sindhi's and Punjabi's were central to IVC. Of course Sindh and Punjab are in Pakistan minus the Indian Punjab.

Since Sindh and Punjab are federated into Pakistan and both make up some 75% of Pakistan it would be acceptable to identify IVC with Pakistan. May I give the example of Hellas civilization which today is called after the modern state Greece. There was no Greek state in ancient times with the name 'Greece'. However the Hellenic Civilization centred around Athens, Sparta and other cities is today identified with modern Greece.

The civilzation born there and it's evolved product today called 'Western' is claimed by all of Europe. That however does not detract the fact that all Europeans accept that the fountain of this civilization was in modern day Greece. I definitely do not see Europeans who openly take pride in this civilization refusing or trying to deny the modern Greeks the credit goes to them in blessing Europe with wonders of Ancient Greeks.

I don't either see the Europeans saying to the Greeks 'Oh you guy's are Christian now and gave up on the Ancient Hellas and don't worship Zeus anymore'. Eurpeans will accept and credit modern Greece as the crucible of their civilization. Maybe which is why Greeks don't complainn about of half of European cities have centres cloned on the Parthenon. Even Washington DC seems to a replica of a Ancient Greek City [ for the wideguy's here I know Dc has been cloned on Rome but Rome itself was modelled on Hellen architecture.

Punjab was also the settling place for the Vedic Aryans if I recall correctly. Besides that, most Punjabis, especially in the northern portions of Punjab are heavily mixed with Aryans. That is why it's a good idea for Pakistan to take pride in their Indo-Aryan & Harappan heritage together. Not all people in Pakistan are Punjabi or Sindhi, that is why our heritage must not be based on these 2 provinces alone. It is not wise to alienate the heritages of the other ethnicities of Pakistan.

Taking pride in a combination of our Indo-Aryan, Harappan, & Islamic heritage would be a much better idea. As I mentioned earlier, most of Pakistan's populace is mixed with the Vedic or Indo-Iranian Aryans. Those that aren't mixed with them are culturally & linguistically Aryan. So combining all 3 of our heritages would be the best solution to this supposed "identity crisis".

 

[Indus Pakistan]

"But I oppose ALL religion as cynically contrived deceptions of humanity. Let us agree to dîffer. There is no common meeting ground on that issue".

@Joe Shearer

Now, that I can agree with 100%. Of course I accept that religion has influenced our culture and it's impress cannot be easily ignored.

 

[Rafi]

^^

Guy's we covered this area in some detail in another thread and I am a strong advocate of the Indus Man. I would also like to add here that you guy's should respect Joe. I have had some intense debates with him and we agreed on some points. On others we agreed to disagree.

I would say that Punjabi's and Sindhi's have the primary rights over IVC. The two epicentres of IVC, Harrapa is in Punjab and Mohenjo Daro is in Sindh. However no civilization will fit cleanly into modern borders. Secondary influences can be seen over the border in Afghanistan and India.

At a tertiery level the effects and influences of this civilization would have gone well beyond the Indus Valley. In that sense Indian's can claim to have been within the magnetic pull of IVC. We in Pakistan should not have any problem with that as long as Indian's recognize that the Sindhi's and Punjabi's were central to IVC. Of course Sindh and Punjab are in Pakistan minus the Indian Punjab.

Since Sindh and Punjab are federated into Pakistan and both make up some 75% of Pakistan it would be acceptable to identify IVC with Pakistan. May I give the example of Hellas civilization which today is called after the modern state Greece. There was no Greek state in ancient times with the name 'Greece'. However the Hellenic Civilization centred around Athens, Sparta and other cities is today identified with modern Greece.

The civilzation born there and it's evolved product today called 'Western' is claimed by all of Europe. That however does not detract the fact that all Europeans accept that the fountain of this civilization was in modern day Greece. I definitely do not see Europeans who openly take pride in this civilization refusing or trying to deny the modern Greeks the credit goes to them in blessing Europe with wonders of Ancient Greeks.

I don't either see the Europeans saying to the Greeks 'Oh you guy's are Christian now and gave up on the Ancient Hellas and don't worship Zeus anymore'. Eurpeans will accept and credit modern Greece as the crucible of their civilization. Maybe which is why Greeks don't complainn about of half of European cities have centres cloned on the Parthenon. Even Washington DC seems to a replica of a Ancient Greek City [ for the wideguy's here I know Dc has been cloned on Rome but Rome itself was modelled on Hellen architecture.

I think all this is about recent Indian-Pakistan history of wars and animosity. The Indian's cannot accept that the people of Pakistan might have primary rights over IVC when they look at them as the enemy, the Islamic terrorist nursery etc. So they just claim on the real estate of Pakistan without accepting her people. It is like they assume 180 million must have been teleported from somewhere else.

**
I have tried to keep away from this debate because I lost interest in this subject and once that happens you lose the edge. Instead I have been doing more reading on this.

The Indus man legacy is our "Ancient Pakistan"

For our indian friends, Pakistan is the rose by any other name.

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;

Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Synopsis
Drawing on primary sources, especially literature, this work endeavours to establish the separateness of Indus from India. Discarding accepted myths of Indian history, it presents a history of the political culture of the Indus region (now Pakistan) from ancient times to the modern age. It is aimed at historians and scholars as well as general readers interested in the history of the subcontinent.

The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan: Amazon.co.uk: Aitzaz Ahsan: Books

Recommended reading for all Pakistanis looking for the history of their land.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Is it that you can't read, or don't want to read?

How many times does the difference between political, geographical and cultural India have to be spelt out?

Political India is 65 years old (actually, closer to 300 years); geographical India dates from around 550 BC, and cultural India from 2500 BC or so.

Again, as already clearly explained, the IVC left no civilisational legacy. Its ownership is not in doubt; most of the prominent and well-known sites fall within the national territory of Pakistan. Its legacy is partly distributed among its genetic descendants, and the people who stay around the sites today. Not to the state, but two of the peoples of Pakistan. It is also distributed among all Dravidian language speakers, and among all who belong to cultural India.



Not a particular religions. That is loathsome, bigotry.

But I oppose ALL religion as cynically contrived deceptions of humanity. Let us agree to dîffer. There is no common meeting ground on that issue.

Come on... be honest when was india united? wasnt it a bunch of small kingdoms? there was no concept of a united india before 1947.. many indians agree to my point...

 

[SamantK]

Come on... be honest when was india united? wasnt it a bunch of small kingdoms? there was no concept of a united india before 1947.. many indians agree to my point...

You are asking the wrong person to be honest... all the best!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The Indus man legacy is our "Ancient Pakistan"

For our indian friends, Pakistan is the rose by any other name.

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;

Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Synopsis
Drawing on primary sources, especially literature, this work endeavours to establish the separateness of Indus from India. Discarding accepted myths of Indian history, it presents a history of the political culture of the Indus region (now Pakistan) from ancient times to the modern age. It is aimed at historians and scholars as well as general readers interested in the history of the subcontinent.

The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan: Amazon.co.uk: Aitzaz Ahsan: Books

Recommended reading for all Pakistanis looking for the history of their land.

What a pleasure reading that. Great stuff.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Establishing our heritage on the basis of the Indus Valley Civilization is a good idea, but it isn't perfect. The reason for this is the arrival of the Aryans. All of our languages descend from either Sanskrit or Avestan towards the west of the country. Most Pakistanis are mixed with the Aryans & some of us even resemble them considerably. Those who aren't mixed with the Indo-Aryans or Indo-Iranians are still culturally & linguistically Indo-Aryan. The country's Indo-Aryan heritage is a better choice in my opinion to base our heritage on. Of course, people can continue to take pride in the Indus Valley Civilization as well.

Why not both? That is the core of Atanz 's position, as I understand it, and a very reasonable and rational one.

Since these arrows point towards my post #418, do you mean to say that you disagree with Pakistan taking pride in its Indo-Aryan heritage & that the country should focus on the IVC alone?



Punjab was also the settling place for the Vedic Aryans if I recall correctly. Besides that, most Punjabis, especially in the northern portions of Punjab are heavily mixed with Aryans. That is why it's a good idea for Pakistan to take pride in their Indo-Aryan & Harappan heritage together. Not all people in Pakistan are Punjabi or Sindhi, that is why our heritage must not be based on these 2 provinces alone. It is not wise to alienate the heritages of the other ethnicities of Pakistan.

Taking pride in a combination of our Indo-Aryan, Harappan, & Islamic heritage would be a much better idea. As I mentioned earlier, most of Pakistan's populace is mixed with the Vedic or Indo-Iranian Aryans. Those that aren't mixed with them are culturally & linguistically Aryan. So combining all 3 of our heritages would be the best solution to this supposed "identity crisis".

Precisely! Why can we not agree on this?

Come on... be honest when was india united? wasnt it a bunch of small kingdoms? there was no concept of a united india before 1947.. many indians agree to my point...

No, it was not.

This is the kind of basic ignorance that sends up my BP.

 

[reformistani]

what an absurd response.

South Asia is problematic because of India's hegemony.
This is a fact.

 

[indian_jigar]

I dont know why we are arguing over such a trivial matter. I think most Pakistani posters here are frustrated at the fact that Pakistan Govt and general population is not proud of IVC and does not claim IVC as its own.

We in India claim IVC because geographically IVC was in Northern and Western India (see map below). Culturally and Civilization-ally, we still are probably the most similar civilization today when compared to IVC and in many ways our culture today draws from it.

I think Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan should also claim and be proud of their pre-Islamic past of Indus Valley Civilization, especially Pakistan which should teach more about Indus Valley in its schools/colleges and less about foreigners like Mughals/Bin Qasim/Durranis/Ghaznavids, etc.

Borders and nationalities were mostly drawn be European imperialists, and its silly to use these borders to try to judge a civilization that was thousands of years old, when the concept of nation states was non-existent. Most international borders are accidents of history, not a well-formulated plan to group cultures or people.

 

[Joe Shearer]

what an absurd response.

South Asia is problematic because of India's hegemony.
This is a fact.

South Asia has too many stool samples floating around.
This is a fact.

 

[Rafi]

I dont know why we are arguing over such a trivial matter. I think most Pakistani posters here are frustrated at the fact that Pakistan Govt and general population is not proud of IVC and does not claim IVC as its own.

We in India claim IVC because geographically IVC was in Northern and Western India (see map below). Culturally and Civilization-ally, we still are probably the most similar civilization today when compared to IVC and in many ways our culture today draws from it.

I think Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan should also claim and be proud of their pre-Islamic past of Indus Valley Civilization, especially Pakistan which should teach more about Indus Valley in its schools/colleges and less about foreigners like Mughals/Bin Qasim/Durranis/Ghaznavids, etc.

Borders and nationalities were mostly drawn be European imperialists, and its silly to use these borders to try to judge a civilization that was thousands of years old, when the concept of nation states was non-existent. Most international borders are accidents of history, not a well-formulated plan to group cultures or people.

We are taught about IVC, and are in fact very proud of it, the nation state is a fairly modern concept, even in European context. And regarding the Mughals etc, they are hardly foreigners they have inter married and lived on this land for a long time now.

 

[rockstarIN]

Is there more excavations going on in Pakistan at IVC sites?

 

[indian_jigar]

We are taught about IVC, and are in fact very proud of it, the nation state is a fairly modern concept, even in European context. And regarding the Mughals etc, they are hardly foreigners they have inter married and lived on this land for a long time now.

Well for the first part of your argument, I dont agree with you. I really dont hear abut IVC when I see Pakistani news channels or debates. For example, I will hear about great Islamic civilizations and Islamic Kings/invaders in Pakistani debates/TV Shows/news shows, but never see people claiming to be proud of Pakistan's IVC past. But then again, maybe these are Islamic right wingers or I am just looking at the wrong places. Overall I just dont get the impression from Pakistanis in general of being proud of IVC.

Also, for the second part, Mughals technically are foreign from a Pakistani perspective. They were ethnically central Asian Turks, and Indian by birth (all born around Delhi except Babur). Then again, its all cool if you are proud of Mughals and like claiming them, people feel proud of different things and its all upto you.

My intention is to not make everything a India vs Pakistan thing, but just discuss things rationally.

 

[pk_baloch]

Oh, that was not difficult to guess. But you will continue to get good wishes for the recovery and rapid healing of these limbs and extremities, even for your thinking faculties, whether you have them or not.

the crown goes to joe shearer who has fingers ,thumbs toes,hands and feet