A military is only for war-Pervez Hoodboy

[CriticalThinker02]

The author is what you call a left wing extremist, a physicists is only for physics not politics stick to your field.

 

[xyxmt]

politicians only for corruption and their Dogs only for barking.

 

[nahtanbob]

1. Yes
2. No
3. No, but I’ll comment on past wars

On the first point, I’d refer you to see what I’ve said on the subject of the OBL raid in the past. OBL was in our custody and had been for years before the raid, the civilian government did not know and were not informed, only very few people knew and it was a closely guarded secret. Pulitzer Prize winning journalists Seymour Hersh detailed how the US found out, and the subsequent raid that was agreed upon and how the plan was compromised and how Pakistan was thrown under the bus at the last minute, and it’s also why our army was silent and civilian leadership confused. It is also what led to tensions between the army and the PPP government of the time, and it subsequently led to memogate. This version of the OBL raid also fits the version ex DG ISI Asad Duranni alluded to in an interview, and also a historian here in the UK who quoted another high ranking official. I’m loose on specifics here, you can look up the details yourself starting with Seymour Hersh. One day this whole thing may be declassified, or the story let slip.

the real issue about the OBL raid is that who allowed him to stay in Pakistan in the first place ? I take it it is not a civilian who took that decision

 

[KaiserX]

Send this clown to Afghanistan plz im sick and tired of his cuck articles where he is always badmouthing Pakistan and giving fruits to our enemies.

 

[FAROOQ RASHID BUTT]

Anti Pakistan Indian agents are exposing themselves and Hoodbhoy is the dirtiest anti Islam anti pakistan puppet

 

[Jungibaaz]

the real issue about the OBL raid is that who allowed him to stay in Pakistan in the first place ? I take it it is not a civilian who took that decision

Our army and intelligence’s top brass did, the civilian government at the time of the raid had no clue about his presence or the planned raid, hence everyone was caught with their pants down. This is what Pakistani politicians mean when they say we have a parallel state above the state.

 

[nahtanbob]

Our army and intelligence’s top brass did, the civilian government at the time of the raid had no clue about his presence or the planned raid, hence everyone was caught with their pants down. This is what Pakistani politicians mean when they say we have a parallel state above the state.

The real elephant in the room is that a few people at the top of the pakistani military are making policies for the entire pakistani nation without any real internal debate

 

[ziaulislam]

1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.

Considering the above events in the last 73-years, I am wondering whether Pakistani Army is even capable of fighting a war?

Oh god you are the this ignorant
I hope rest of PMLN donr bring up point no.1 to china because of that will really hurt pakistan
Talking about pak china boarder could be the nd game for pakistan

On the other hand i refuse to accept that you cant comphrehend a simple matter of pak china boarder settlement ..your IQ seems above 70

 

[Jungibaaz]

The real elephant in the room is that a few people at the top of the pakistani military are making policies for the entire pakistani nation without any real internal debate

This is the way it has been since the 60s, although with two caveats; firstly that what we call colloquially the ‘establishment’ also includes politicians, businessman, and other important figures, not just military; secondly that we have a hybrid system now in which we have a separately running imperfect democratic system of government, the former influences the latter, the latter is more prominent now than in any time in our history.

 

[Syed1.]

The real elephant in the room is that a few people at the top of the pakistani military are making policies for the entire pakistani nation without any real internal debate

That's not true.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

We have a military with an $11B budget compared to $60B on the other side. That tends to limit options. I doubt you have anything better to offer.

1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
   1. This actually solved Pakistan's border issues with China for good. It actually was the best long term investment made by Pakistan with China over time becoming a steadfast friend and supporter. Only the Indian side has heartburn over this, otherwise you talk to anyone in the FO or the military about this issue, and they will say its a non-issue with massive RoI for Pakistan.
2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
   1. 17 days was the 65 war. 1971 war was 13 days long but more importantly, why did the East Pakistanis turn against Pakistan? Does ZAB's decision to not let MuR form government not have anything to do with this? Why does the then political dispensation not get this blame as they were the ones who rejected Yahya's offer to let MuR form a government?
3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
   1. Zia and the Army reacted to an Indian move to garrison troops at the glacier. Prior to 84, neither side had any troops there. As far as the "lost" is concerned, how is that a loss when Indian troops and government cannot do much but continue their garrisoning of the glacier just the same as Pakistan? Yes, they have some of the dominating heights but Pakistan maintains a presence to this day there and there is no way for the Indians to remove Pakistan and vice versa.
4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
   1. Kargil was with India in 1971 and remained with them. What is "lost" in Waziristan?
5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
   1. What did you want him to do? Let Americans ignore OBL upon finding him? Did you want Pakistan to take on the might of the United States and get destroyed in the process?
6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
   1. Really? What levers did, of all people, Gen Bajwa have to stop India's decision to change the status of a territory they already occupied?

Let's go with your comment about the Pakistan Army not being able to fight any war. Ok, you are right, its for show. What are your options? You want to disband it? Do you want to increase its funding? Talk is cheap specially when such lists are thrown around with abandon.

I prefer to see glass as half full. The military, with its limited funding, does wonders for Pakistan. To this day Kashmir issue is alive. Waziristan has been pacified, Siachen is status-quo despite being at a huge military disadvantage against India. East Pakistan became Pakistan's "never again" moment driving the national security/military to deliver on "eating grass but delivering on a strategic deterrence". As such, even with reverses (suffered by all the militaries of world, including the US, China, India, Israel etc. etc.), the military in Pakistan does us proud.

"Half" the country?.......bangladesh is 6 times smaller than Pakistan. That is less than 17% the size of Pakistan. Since when 1/2 = 1/6?????..........By the same definition, indian lost around 35% of it's territory in the creation of Pakistan in one day on August the 14th 1947.........

 

[Enigma SIG]

1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.

Considering the above events in the last 73-years, I am wondering whether Pakistani Army is even capable of fighting a war?

4. General Musharraf did not eliminate Sharif family like the Bolsheviks did to the Tsars.
TFTFY.

 

[Jungibaaz]

We have a military with an $11B budget compared to $60B on the other side. That tends to limit options. I doubt you have anything better to offer.

1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
   1. This actually solved Pakistan's border issues with China for good. It actually was the best long term investment made by Pakistan with China over time becoming a steadfast friend and supporter. Only the Indian side has heartburn over this, otherwise you talk to anyone in the FO or the military about this issue, and they will say its a non-issue with massive RoI for Pakistan.
2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
   1. 17 days was the 65 war. 1971 war was 13 days long but more importantly, why did the East Pakistanis turn against Pakistan? Does ZAB's decision to not let MuR form government not have anything to do with this? Why does the then political dispensation not get this blame as they were the ones who rejected Yahya's offer to let MuR form a government?
3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
   1. Zia and the Army reacted to an Indian move to garrison troops at the glacier. Prior to 84, neither side had any troops there. As far as the "lost" is concerned, how is that a loss when Indian troops and government cannot do much but continue their garrisoning of the glacier just the same as Pakistan? Yes, they have some of the dominating heights but Pakistan maintains a presence to this day there and there is no way for the Indians to remove Pakistan and vice versa.
4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
   1. Kargil was with India in 1971 and remained with them. What is "lost" in Waziristan?
5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
   1. What did you want him to do? Let Americans ignore OBL upon finding him? Did you want Pakistan to take on the might of the United States and get destroyed in the process?
6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
   1. Really? What levers did, of all people, Gen Bajwa have to stop India's decision to change the status of a territory they already occupied?

Let's go with your comment about the Pakistan Army not being able to fight any war. Ok, you are right, its for show. What are your options? You want to disband it? Do you want to increase its funding? Talk is cheap specially when such lists are thrown around with abandon.

I prefer to see glass as half full. The military, with its limited funding, does wonders for Pakistan. To this day Kashmir issue is alive. Waziristan has been pacified, Siachen is status-quo despite being at a huge military disadvantage against India. East Pakistan became Pakistan's "never again" moment driving the national security/military to deliver on "eating grass but delivering on a strategic deterrence". As such, even with reverses (suffered by all the militaries of world, including the US, China, India, Israel etc. etc.), the military in Pakistan does us proud.

I’m going to take issue with a few of these positions, I agree with some explanations you have made. However, as for the 1965 war, we started or at least scaled up the conflict with Op Gibraltar. What did we gain apart from having it escalate out of hand resulting in an all out war which we would inevitably lose given enough time and attrition? Gibraltar failed, we paid for it immediately with lives and dollars, and also starting wars has long term negative consequences with one’s allies, neighbours, diplomatic relations, and can trigger future wars.

Same story with Kargil, we started that and undermined Vajpayee’s seemingly earnest peace process, we lost most of what we captured solely because the strategic and long term view was extremely flawed and we were utterly unprepared for the diplomatic and military escalation dynamics. We lost most of the the peaks we captured, we lost men, we lost face as an aggressor, and we lost the peace process, we also lost a civilian government due to a subsequent coup, we also compounded the trouble we were already in due to our nuclear tests, by looking like an irresponsible and belligerent power, we probably also faced worse sanctions as a result. We lost credibility as a state, now at every feeble attempt of ours to talk with India we are reminded of Kargil.

As for OBL, why not inform the government? Why not have a contingency in place? The US made fools of us and caused huge and irreparable national embarrassment when they unilaterally proclaimed that they had killed him in a raid in our heartland.

We were caught with our pants down and with no adequate response. Civilian government was shell shocked fools and the army were a bunch of mutes with nothing to say. Say what you will about this, but it speaks of poor planning and incompetence of none other than our army leadership.

However, my main gripe is not just with these conflicts, it’s the violations of democracy, oppressive dictatorships, enriching of the military industrial complex, as well as civilian and military officers, serving or retired. And the wholesale violation of the constitution and rights of the people that has come with all of the above.

 

[nahtanbob]

I’m going to take issue with a few of these positions, I agree with some explanations you have made. However, as for the 1965 war, we started or at least scaled up the conflict with Op Gibraltar. What did we gain apart from having it escalate out of hand resulting in an all out war which we would inevitably lose given enough time and attrition? Gibraltar failed, we paid for it immediately with lives and dollars, and also starting wars has long term negative consequences with one’s allies, neighbours, diplomatic relations, and can trigger future wars.

Same story with Kargil, we started that and undermined Vajpayee’s seemingly earnest peace process, we lost most of what we captured solely because the strategic and long term view was extremely flawed and we were utterly unprepared for the diplomatic and military escalation dynamics. We lost most of the the peaks we captured, we lost men, we lost face as an aggressor, and we lost the peace process, we also lost a civilian government due to a subsequent coup, we also compounded the trouble we were already in due to our nuclear tests, by looking like an irresponsible and belligerent power, we probably also faced worse sanctions as a result. We lost credibility as a state, now at every feeble attempt of ours to talk with India we are reminded of Kargil.

As for OBL, why not inform the government? Why not have a contingency in place? The US made fools of us and caused huge and irreparable national embarrassment when they unilaterally proclaimed that they had killed him in a raid in our heartland.

We were caught with our pants down and with no adequate response. Civilian government was shell shocked fools and the army were a bunch of mutes with nothing to say. Say what you will about this, but it speaks of poor planning and incompetence of none other than our army leadership.

However, my main gripe is not just with these conflicts, it’s the violations of democracy, oppressive dictatorships, enriching of the military industrial complex, as well as civilian and military officers, serving or retired. And the wholesale violation of the constitution and rights of the people that has come with all of the above.

Every government makes mistakes. In every country elites make decisions. The thing that stands about Pakistani army is that there is no thought to non-military aspects of running a country. I can assume Army officers are trained in military matters. I doubt they are trained even in diplomacy or geopolitics let alone politics or economic developmnent. It is almost like there is no serious thought given to the long term consequences of decisions.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Military is only for war.



US Army guarding Negro students during 1960s desegragation.

US elite 101st Airborne Division guarding young Black students at Little Rock.

US Corp of Engineers as well as building dams, river engineering works, highways and in picture below converting to hospitals during coronvirus pandemic.

National Guardsmen on streets during recent Black Lives protest. They look better rigged then Pakistan Army sokdiers.

Yes, sure military is ONLY for war.