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A homecoming gone so horribly wrong

Which is why you mustn't believe everything you read.

If I did, then I would have sold my mind like many, who have lost this Creator given faculty! ;)

But fools make one realise the real worth of being alive!

They too have their relevance.

And thus forums exist!

They make a dull life exiting!
 
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Ok go ahead, give the authority to Kashmiries people of both sides & give them right to choose with whom they want to live under UN advisers, the result will be ok with me. but what about you ??

Oh man, how hard is this to understand. It isn't up to me or you to decide.

Musharraf and GOI ain't gonna let it happen.

How hard is that to understand?

yes-Reality is otherwise.

I'm glad we agree.

Indian was not successful to defeat Us by numbers in the past 60, nor she will be now.

She will definitely not get defeated by Pakistan...;)

Keep your Dreams of India as Super power going on, i will seriously dont mind.

India doesn't have to be a superpower to defeat Pakistan in war!!
Look at military strength. Think Practically. Pakistan army never beat India in a war before.


You should act on your advice first then ask anyone to do so.

But I am...and the ground situation does not indicate a plebiscite in the future!! Kindly argue otherwise and don't resort to smart remarks, or else we will have to resort to namecalling.

It is the only solution for you not for US.

Regards
Wilco

I repeat....don't daydream...just tell me.....what do you think Mushy's next move on Kashmir will be? Will he attack India? Will he demand UN resolution? or will he let status quo persist?

India will be quite happy with statue quo, no sinister plans to attack Pakistan here.
 
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Agreed, not every thread has to degenerate into a Kashmir thread.

But that will happen anytime "Pakistan sponsored terrorism/militancy" is referenced, or allegories to Kashmir are made while discussing the situation in FATA or Baluchistan. As much as you may consider the UN resolutions to be tired and old, so are the constant refrains and accusations from the Indian side.

Leave each to their own section.
 
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We are attempting to do that by implementing a "moral" solution to a festering territorial dispute between the two countries. Waiting for your side to respond positively.

Ok I'm not arguing about the whole Jinnah-Gandhi-Hindu-Muslim thing since its pointless....or if you want we can shift to another thread.

Who is "we"?
Pakistanis?
You and your friends?
GOP?
Musharraf?
Kindly elaborate.

Musharraf definitely doesn't want plebiscite or AK to get independence. Neither does India.

So however moral your solution might seem, it simply ain't gonna happen.

The most practical solution is to declare LOC as the border.
 
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LOC with adjustments would be fine for most Pakistanis.
Although this thread is going nowhere like the many others, here is a decent article with all of the options discussed laid out for reference sake:
Solutions to the Kashmir issue

SAMAN MALIK
Several options (besides armed struggle) have been offered to solve the Kashmir issue. These include (a) Status quo (division of Kashmir along the present LoC with or without some local adjustments to facilitate the local population, (b) Complete or partial independence (creation of independent Muslim-majority tehsils of Rajauri, Poonch and Uri with Hindu-majority areas merged in India), (c) Plebiscite to be held in 5 to 10 years after putting Kashmir under UN trusteeship (Trieste-like solution), (d) Joint control, (e) Indus-basin-related solution, (f) Aland-island-like solution and (e) Permutations and combinations of the aforementioned options.
Maintaining the Status Quo: Following the China-India war in 1962, Swaran Singh, Foreign Minister of India, offered to cede to Azad Kashmir and the Northern Area additional 3,000 square miles (97,770 square kilometers) of territory from Indian-controlled Kashmir.
Six rounds of quadripartite ministerial talks (including the United Kingdom and the United States) were held in 1963 to discuss the Kashmir-partition plan. The plan proposed a boundary that followed the peaks of Pir Panjal Range in northern Jammu and included the districts of Riasi, Kotli, and Poonch in Pakistan. India was to control Riasi and parts of the other two districts. Riasi was to include the middle reach of Chenab River, vital to Pakistan. India demanded postponement of consideration of Kashmir Valley and Srinagar as communication to Ladakh was controlled through Srinagar. India insisted that the area was essential to its defence against China.
After the Tashkent Declaration, Lal Bahadur Shastri, Prime Minister of India, offered to adjust the cease-fire line and give Pakistan additional territory to resolve the Kashmir dispute. Status quo is now no longer a solution. It is not acceptable to any of the “necessary” parties (particularly Kashmiris) to the dispute.
The other option is for India and Pakistan to grant independence to disputed areas under their control and let Kashmir emerge as a neutral country. An independent Kashmir, as a neutral country, was the favourite choice of Sheikh Abdullah and from the early 1950s to the beginning of the crisis in 1989 – “Sheikh Abdullah supported ‘safeguarding of autonomy’ to the fullest possible extent” (Report of the State Autonomy Committee, Jammu, p. 41). Abdullah irked Nehru so much that he had to put Abdullah behind the bars. How could India agree to independence, if she did not agree to the McNaughton Proposals (6,000 Azad Kashmiri irregulars versus 18,000 Indian regulars).
Bhabani Sen Gupta and Prem Shankar Jha assert that “if New Delhi sincerely wishes to break the deadlock in Kashmir, it has no other alternative except to accept and implement what is being termed as an ‘Autonomy Plus, Independence Minus’ formula, or to grant autonomy to the state to the point where it is indistinguishable from independence”. (Shri Prakash and Ghulam Mohammad Shah (ed.), Towards understanding the Kashmir crisis, New Delhi, Gyan Publishing House, 2002, p.226).
A third alternative is a “Trieste” type solution, in which Kashmir would be divided along communal lines. The Hindu majority areas of Jammu and the Buddhist-dominated region of Ladakh would join India. The Northern Area would remain with Pakistan, and the Kashmir Valley along with Azad Kashmir would join Pakistan. Free access would be given to people living on both sides of Kashmir.
Trieste was partitioned based on an agreement between Italy and former Yugoslavia, and residents on either side of city were given free access to the other side. Such an agreement was discussed by President Ayub Khan and was discussed in principle with Nehru. Liaquat Ali Khan was due to visit India, and Mountbatten intended to confront the two leaders with this proposal.
Still another option is to put Kashmiris under the joint control of India and Pakistan. But, this option appears to be Utopian. One option floated in Kashmiri circles across the line of control is to carve out a solution on the lines of Indus Basin Water Treaty. The treaty divided the Indus River system and allocated three western rivers (Indus, Chenab, and Jhelum) to Pakistan and three eastern rivers (Ravi, Sutlej, and Beas) to India. The idea was that the Indus, Jhelum, and Chenab Rivers and their basins should join Pakistan, and the Sutlej, Ravi, and Beas Rivers and their basins, as well as the remaining parts of Kashmir, should join India.
The Jhelum originates at Vernag Spring (more precisely at nearby Vitlnlvutur Spring), not far from Zoji La Pass. Below Kishinganga Junction, it forms the boundary between Jammu and Kashmir and the districts of Hazara and Rawalpindi. The basin of the Jhelum would fall within the exclusive domain of Pakistan. The source of the Chenab is on the southern flank of the main Himalayan chain, about 150 miles south of Leh. In general, the river flows parallel to the Indus to the northwest, then turns southwest to Pakistan. Below Akhnur, the river splits into smaller channels that could form the dividing line. Bilateral negotiations could amicably divide the Chenab Basin and address the question of Muslim majority districts in the area.
Aland Island solution: Agreement on the Aland Islands between Finland and Sweden offers guidance on how to solve the Kashmir tangle. Aland international accord settled the territorial dispute on the basis of the status quo. Any settlement of the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan requires a guaranteed special status for both halves of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
Aland problem was solved as Finland was sincere, unlike India as concerns the Kashmir issue. When the dispute with Sweden arose after the First World War, Finland’s Parliament passed an autonomy law on May 6, 1920, for Aland. The aim was to strengthen Swedish stance before world opinion. The people of Aland demanded a plebiscite to determine their fate, whether accession to any disputants or secession from them. The League of Nations’ Rapporteurs ruled in favour of Finland. But they suggested Aland’s secession could be avoided by offering her iron-clad guarantees of autonomy.
The proposed guarantees related to proprietary rights of the natives, voting rights of immigrants and nomination of a governor who enjoyed trust of the Alandian people. By contrast, governors in occupied Kashmir continued to be superimposed on Kashmir by India’s central governments without consent of Kashmiris. New Delhi never trusted even its stooges in Srinagar.
United Nations’ Solution: The underlying assumption of the UN proposal is that Kashmir belongs neither to India nor to Pakistan; rather, it belongs to Kashmiris. Hence, the legitimate and democratic way to solve the problem is to ascertain the wishes of the people through an impartial plebiscite. India, Pakistan, Britain, France China, the United Nations, and US pledged to the world that a plebiscite would be held. This is what the people of Kashmir are struggling to achieve.
Fifteen United Nations’ resolutions granted Kashmiris their right of self-determination. A plebiscite, administered with a nonpartisan procedure, is a valid option. The proposal Sir Owen Dixon submitted to the United Nations in 1950 provides a reasonable framework, acknowledging geopolitical and ethnic differences. The inhabitants of the state would decide their own future by regional plebiscite and partition. India opposes even regional plebiscite and partition as proposed by Dixon.
Mushahid Hussain said “The US no longer supports a plebiscite in Kashmir. Both these positions were enunciated by US Assistant Secretary of State for Near East and South Asia, John Kelly during Congressional Testimony in Washington on March 6, 1990”. (“Kashmir Issue: The International Dimension”, as cited in Gul Mohd. Wanis’ Kashmir: From Autonomy to Azadi, 1996, Valley Book House, pp.237).
Mushahid and a host of other intellectuals were misguided by Kelly’s mis-speech. “John Mallot, the (US) department’s point man for South Asia, told Congress in April 1993 that John Kelly, former assistant secretary for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs, ‘misspoke’ in 1990 when he said that the United States no longer believed a plebiscite was necessary in South Asia”. (Mushtaqur Rehman’s Divided Kashmir: Old Problems, New Opportunites for India, Pakistan and the Kashmiri People, London, Lynne Reinner Publishers, London, 1996, pp. 162-163). India insists upon maintaining the status quo. But, this option is not acceptable to Pakistan, nor to international community or, above all, to the people of Kashmir. Bus or train services are no substitute for the real problem. Plebiscite is the best solution, preceded by demilitarisation and self-governance.
 
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Never mind, I have said what I feel regarding the issue, so lets just get back to the topic at hand.
 
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India doesn't have to be a superpower to defeat Pakistan in war!!
Look at military strength. Think Practically. Pakistan army never beat India in a war before.

Ok when did india beat us in war? 71 yeah ok because there was no land contact between the east and west pakistan, the local population was against pakistan army, moreover there was no spirit to fight and yaha khan surrendered with 90000 troops. Ok. Lets take it a little back in 48 when we took part of the kashmir that is now called AZK. In 65 we captured more land then you did and india was the one who went to UN to help her achieve ceasefire. Was it not? Kargil was an unconditional withdrawl from NS, obiviously you can call it whatever you want, but the fact is that one pakistan wasnt fighting with full force whereas india was using her full potential including the airforce, secondly NS went for an unconditional withdrawl because he was unable to handle the situation and wanted to put all the blame on musharraf. 2002 when india accused pakistan behing the attack on indian parliment and despite of having the numerical superioty and all the forces put on the boder india was unable to teach pakistan a lesson that it always wanted too.
The fact is that both of us are unable to teach eachother a lesson and so this BS of india being a super power should stop because you are not and in an event of war none of us will achieve any creadible victory over the other party.
 
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Ok when did india beat us in war? 71 yeah ok because there was no land contact between the east and west pakistan, the local population was against pakistan army, moreover there was no spirit to fight and yaha khan surrendered with 90000 troops.

What do you meant there wasn't spirit to fight?
Why did PA lose its spirit? It does put a lot of questions on the ability of PA to fight in adverse circumstances.

Ok. Lets take it a little back in 48 when we took part of the kashmir that is now called AZK. In 65 we captured more land then you did and india was the one who went to UN to help her achieve ceasefire. Was it not?

in '48 Pakistan didn't even declare war. Some mujahideens simply occupied the territory, and Jawaharlal Nehru, peace loving as he was, refused to go all out on Pakistan.

In '65 India had captured more territory, and had more staying power in terms of cash and fuel. Indian politicians didn't have the will to fight, so asked for ceasefire.

India wasn't willing to suffer as much as Pakistan to win the war decisively, for little or no gains.

Kargil was an unconditional withdrawl from NS, obiviously you can call it whatever you want, but the fact is that one pakistan wasnt fighting with full force whereas india was using her full potential including the airforce, secondly NS went for an unconditional withdrawl because he was unable to handle the situation and wanted to put all the blame on musharraf.

India was hardly using her full potential. In such harsh terrain, it was mostly close range and hand to hand combat.

Moreover, Pakistan had the option to use whatever forces it wanted to. Why didn't she use airforce? Was there a lack of strategy, planning, cooperation?
All this is also a part of military strength.

2002 when india accused pakistan behing the attack on indian parliment and despite of having the numerical superioty and all the forces put on the boder india was unable to teach pakistan a lesson that it always wanted too.


Please don't twist facts to suit your propaganda.

There was the risk of nuclear war, of economies collapsing, there was international pressure.

Do you think war was advisable in such circumstances?

The fact is that both of us are unable to teach eachother a lesson and so this BS of india being a super power should stop because you are not and in an event of war none of us will achieve any creadible victory over the other party.

Exactly, the most probable result is a stalemate, assuming nukes are not used.

This is a big assumption since we all know how low Pakistan's nuclear threshold is.

But still, in an all-out conventional battle with no holds barred, India will overpower Pakistan with sheer numbers, if not anything else. This, I think, is fairly obvious to even the most biased person.
Taking over Lahore and Islamabad will be much easier for India than for Pakistan to reach all the way to Delhi.
 
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What do you meant there wasn't spirit to fight?
Why did PA lose its spirit? It does put a lot of questions on the ability of PA to fight in adverse circumstances.

Leadership failure and that too which happens to be the arymchief then.

in '48 Pakistan didn't even declare war. Some mujahideens simply occupied the territory, and Jawaharlal Nehru, peace loving as he was, refused to go all out on Pakistan.

What ever you wana call it, would you wait for pakistan to declare a war, we dont need too if we achieve our objectives.

In '65 India had captured more territory, and had more staying power in terms of cash and fuel. Indian politicians didn't have the will to fight, so asked for ceasefire.

Go checkout any netural source and you will know who captured more terrority. Indian leaders didnt had the will to fight or they knew they are loosing this battle, they went for ceasefire.

India wasn't willing to suffer as much as Pakistan to win the war decisively, for little or no gains.

Whatever makes you happy.

India was hardly using her full potential. In such harsh terrain, it was mostly close range and hand to hand combat.

Moreover, Pakistan had the option to use whatever forces it wanted to. Why didn't she use airforce? Was there a lack of strategy, planning, cooperation?
All this is also a part of military strength.

Hardly lol you must be kidding me. How many battlions did you move to backup the original 700000 there. What were mirages doing? Why were migs crossing loc? which got them shotdown. What was left, a full scale war that india was threatning to do, otherwise you were using every mean at your disposal including the chemical weapons at certain places. I think nukes were left. India didnt use that i agree.
Pakistan had the option but didnt one reason NS was the biggest looser of all time. It was sheer stupidity to even claim that he didnt knew. What more can we expect of him. He was unable to handle the crisis. He went on a commerical flight to US, what more example should i give you about him lacking balls.

Please don't twist facts to suit your propaganda.

There was the risk of nuclear war, of economies collapsing, there was international pressure.

Do you think war was advisable in such circumstances?

What is there i'm propaganda about? Did you not put forces on the border? Did you not wanted to teach pakistan a lesson then. I believe a full one year the forces remained on border. What for were they greating the pakistani side. No. But you couldnt do it. Risk of a nuclear war, i guess by your side because pakistan wasnt looking for one, hell we even didnt felt the need to assemble our nukes.



Exactly, the most probable result is a stalemate, assuming nukes are not used.

This is a big assumption since we all know how low Pakistan's nuclear threshold is.

But still, in an all-out conventional battle with no holds barred, India will overpower Pakistan with sheer numbers, if not anything else. This, I think, is fairly obvious to even the most biased person.
Taking over Lahore and Islamabad will be much easier for India than for Pakistan to reach all the way to Delhi.

Pakistan's nuclear threshold is way beyond you can imagine. I gave you the reason above. We didnt even felt there was a need to assemble our nukes when india was ready for an all out war.
Just by sheer number you cant overcome someone. Thats a most ridiculous statement i've ever heard, if that would had been the case then arabs would never have been defeated by alone israel.
You have already tried to take lahore in 65. You couldnt do it what makes you think you can now.
 
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Leadership failure and that too which happens to be the arymchief then.

Alrite, I'll agree with that one. to some extent. It was difficult to defend a hostile land a thousand kms away.

What ever you wana call it, would you wait for pakistan to declare a war, we dont need too if we achieve our objectives.

Its the protocol buddy. Pakistan resorted to cheap tactics by occupying the heights in winter and not even admitting that they were at war until it was over.
India obviously was unprepared since they assumed that its some terrorists. It turned out to be the PA.

All this just after peace talks. Talk about trust building.

Go checkout any netural source and you will know who captured more terrority. Indian leaders didnt had the will to fight or they knew they are loosing this battle, they went for ceasefire

Oh please, every neutral source says India had won more land and more resources such as ammo and money. It also had less casualties.

Indo-Pakistan War of 1965

Silent Guns, Wary Combatants - TIME


Hardly lol you must be kidding me. How many battlions did you move to backup the original 700000 there. What were mirages doing? Why were migs crossing loc? which got them shotdown. What was left, a full scale war that india was threatning to do, otherwise you were using every mean at your disposal including the chemical weapons at certain places. I think nukes were left. India didnt use that i agree.
Pakistan had the option but didnt one reason NS was the biggest looser of all time. It was sheer stupidity to even claim that he didnt knew. What more can we expect of him. He was unable to handle the crisis. He went on a commerical flight to US, what more example should i give you about him lacking balls.

It doesn't matter how many battalions were there. The ones who fought were very few and usually company-level parties did the job by physically climbing up the peaks and using hand-to-hand.

The places where it was possible to use air power, it was used, but only on a very limited scale.

The Pakistanis had the advantage of both height and ease of terrain.

What is there i'm propaganda about? Did you not put forces on the border? Did you not wanted to teach pakistan a lesson then. I believe a full one year the forces remained on border. What for were they greating the pakistani side. No. But you couldnt do it. Risk of a nuclear war, i guess by your side because pakistan wasnt looking for one, hell we even didnt felt the need to assemble our nukes.

It wasn't about teaching anyone a lesson. Both nations mobilized their forces towards the border due to tensions. If Pakistan attacks Indian parliament, what do u expect?

The nukes question is very debatable. You guys had them and India had every reason to believe that they were fully operational



Pakistan's nuclear threshold is way beyond you can imagine. I gave you the reason above. We didnt even felt there was a need to assemble our nukes when india was ready for an all out war.
Just by sheer number you cant overcome someone. Thats a most ridiculous statement i've ever heard, if that would had been the case then arabs would never have been defeated by alone israel.
You have already tried to take lahore in 65. You couldnt do it what makes you think you can now.

We probably can't take lahore since Indian politicians won't allow it.

But we do have a higher chance of getting lahore than you guys have of reaching delhi. That much is beyond debate.

Its not a question of just numbers. Of couse India has the latest weapons and tactics, so all things being equal, we should definitely overcome Pakistan with sheer numbers.

Arab countries had poor weapons and tactics. Rest assured IA doesn't suffer the same weaknesses.
 
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