A divided nation | Peace or War with Taliban?

[jaibi]

Honestly I've no idea what to do !

We can't really talk to them because we've got nothing to talk to them about ! They've got a grievance that goes 'because you entered the War On Terror - This is Payback for that' & a demand that goes 'we're going to bring our system here perforce & anyone who stands within our way is an enemy of God & needs to be butchered like a goat' !

Frankly I don't buy into their grievance because studying the 'effect' of their grievance does not correlate, in my opinion, with its stated 'causation' because, whereas I could be wrong, I have a feeling that the women, children, young & old alike that are blown up in our mosques, in our schools, in our hospitals, in our marketplaces & even in our funerals aren't the ones who got Pakistan's entry into the War On Terror nor are they the ones who're calling the Drone Strikes ! Furthermore the nexus between the LeJ & the TTP doesn't add up for me either because the Shias didn't do squat when it comes to entering the War On Terror so why include them in the equation ?

So if the targets are indiscriminate then the cause & effect just doesn't add up for me !

Which leaves us with their 'Demand' ! They want to enforce their Interpretation of Islam on the rest of us whether someone agrees with them or not & if they 'do not' agree with them then the TTP will do to them what we do to an unsuspecting goat every Eid !

I don't know if there is any indication towards the TTP coming down from its Maximilist Position & if they don't can we possible agree to that demand ? Haven't we seen its results in Swat & elsewhere ?

Which leaves you with the option of fighting them !

As I said earlier, in my opinion, you need credibility, capacity & deterrence for that ! We don't have any of those three !

None of our State Security Institutions, Civilian Executive, Bureaucracy, Judiciary & the Media have 'credibility enough' in the eyes of the common man to be heard & believed so that the TTP narrative & those of their sympathizers isn't heard & believed by the gullible masses that we have !

Barring the Army no other Security Apparatus in Pakistan has the Capacity of fighting them & perhaps not even the Army because whereas conventional & non conventional might be a differential of a mere 3 letters in the English Language - On ground theres probably a world of difference ! I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the Army had to practically reinvent itself in a myriad ways to fight this War ! What to say of the Police & the Levies ?

Which leaves us with Deterrence ! Until recently we didn't even have laws to deal with this & deterrence, I think, depends upon both capacity & credibility & when the both of them are in short supply - Wheres the deterrence ?

So I dunno whats the way out of this War ! I don't think the Talks are going to achieve anything but I'm not much too optimistic about Fighting them either !

Maybe Pukhtoons like @Hyperion @chauvunist @TaimiKhan @Spring Onion - who can understand the dynamics of the Tribal Areas better than anyone of us - can lend some insight into something that we're missing out....that something that would be able to take initiative back from the TTP & save our Pukhtoon Belt & by extension - Pakistan, from terrible loss of innocent life & limb !

I don't know whether its through some Jirgas, through the Levies, through the Tribal Lashkars, through the Army's continued presence or through something else would we be able to solve this problem !

If you ask me - What to do ? I'm simply at a loss for words because I dunno what to do !

Our enemies within & without are brilliant in that they've entangled us in a conundrum that I don't see us getting out of for a long...long time !

' @Secur @Mamba @Hyperion @Marshmallow @Aeronaut @Icarus @Xeric @Irfan Baloch @balixd @Developereo @Oscar

And that is exactly why we need to talk to ourselves, the common folk about this issue so we put everything on the table and make a consented decision.

 

[jaibi]

as one of fellows said above, you have asked way too many questions in the article, its a nice report though.
Talking about People and the nation, than that has to be brought from top. In business they tell us, when Change is to be brought in, it requires strong & committed Leadership. Even in our case, it will require some committed leadership, that will actually work to bring change rather than distributing scooties & laptops.

Solution to the war: Well, again in Business studies they tell us that whenever you are going to get into a deal with another organization, whoever has the upper hand gets the best deal. If you want to secur a best deal, you better put the other corporation in defensive mode and you take the offensive.
Like Microsft taking over Nokia, Google taking over Motorola. The big giants ate up the small fishes, thats the basic rule.

So why should it be any different when it comes to dealing with TTP? This might have started off as US WoT, but right now it sure is our war.
Should we fight them? yes, ofcourse or else you see them sitting in the PM house.
But why not peace? well ofcourse peace is the long term solution.
What I am suggesting is, We fight these monsters, We put them to defensive position, rather offensive, Nation needs to stand by Leadership & Military, tell talibunies, if they want peace it will be on our terms.
Once we have pushed them to their ratholes, than offer a peace dialogue.



something I have been wishing for , for past few years.....cutting the financial supply line

Bali, I've been screaming that this TTP is not a monster it's a Hydra, cut off one head another pops up, why? It's not that we're good Muslims, it's because right now it's very profitable to be a Talib. That needs to change. Destroy the enemy supplies lines and their backs are broken! Simple cold hard logic, these guys aren't as strong as we think, their main assault is psychological not pure military.

Look towards the History of Nations - Strong Leadership is what has put those systems in place as opposed to those systems growing organically through popular movement !

We need that Leadership so that our Institutional crisis is solved ! And only then can we look towards an existence which isn't centered around People (Leaders) !

Arm, I agree that a lot of history will side with your argument but I believe that sociologically our solution is in what I presented. I've been working on that article and I will post it soon.

 

[Hosseini]

No peace with Taliban

Love Afghanistan Hate Taliban

 

[Anotherangle]

@jaibi
If there is peace in Pakistan, it hurts whom? this is the key question! Even if you defeat the tribal Islamist enemy (I don't like to call them with their chosen name), the peace is not going to come; if you have a peace deal, there will not be total peace. Why? because you are not dealing with a single enemy- there are many taking advantage of the situation like RAW. Northern Alliance supporter (against whom Pakistan supported Taliban and the tribal do not forget their enemies) etc. -
Pakistan enemies' are many and they do not want that peace come to Pakistan. One angle to look at Church blast and killing of MJ ( potentially sabotaging peace talks) is to see who gets the benefit out of the war scenario? Beside the tribal and other enemies, those who want to secularize Pakistan hate to have peace deal with the Islamist power-, it hurts their cause, so the secularism supporters like CIA, MI6 or other western intelligence agencies' hand in breaking peace deal cannot be rules out. I have first hand observations of their role as branding Islamist powers as the anti-human and banning the organization which were only doing welfare work, and that only happened in Pakistan and Afghanistan as they cannot ban the similar organizations in their own countries.

For me the whole affair is simple: we (it is no good to divide ourselves in blame game) supported Islamist- as you mentioned in your report- and we did it for security reasons. when the US got attacked, we felt threatened and for the same security reasons we supported Islamists, we took a U turn, and that overturned our vehicle; Now to be on the right track, you have to set your priority right and that is peace in Pakistan; no other agenda please.

About secularism, remember Pakistan was made for Islam, otherwise it will make little difference, if we live in Sindhudesh, Republic of Baluchistan, or greater Pakhtonkhwa, Punjab can coin its new name, (or even it has no history of standing as a separate nation, so) we can join our secular India or what about a secular Khalistan?- Anyway history will take its course-no need to stick to that maroon Islamic poet's Idea.

 

[jaibi]

@jaibi
If there is peace in Pakistan, it hurts whom? this is the key question! Even if you defeat the tribal Islamist enemy (I don't like to call them with their chosen name), the peace is not going to come; if you have a peace deal, there will not be total peace. Why? because you are not dealing with a single enemy- there are many taking advantage of the situation like RAW. Northern Alliance supporter (against whom Pakistan supported Taliban and the tribal do not forget their enemies) etc. -
Pakistan enemies' are many and they do not want that peace come to Pakistan. One angle to look at Church blast and killing of MJ ( potentially sabotaging peace talks) is to see who gets the benefit out of the war scenario? Beside the tribal and other enemies, those who want to secularize Pakistan hate to have peace deal with the Islamist power-, it hurts their cause, so the secularism supporters like CIA, MI6 or other western intelligence agencies' hand in breaking peace deal cannot be rules out. I have first hand observations of their role as branding Islamist powers as the anti-human and banning the organization which were only doing welfare work, and that only happened in Pakistan and Afghanistan as they cannot ban the similar organizations in their own countries.

For me the whole affair is simple: we (it is no good to divide ourselves in blame game) supported Islamist- as you mentioned in your report- and we did it for security reasons. when the US got attacked, we felt threatened and for the same security reasons we supported Islamists, we took a U turn, and that overturned our vehicle; Now to be on the right track, you have to set your priority right and that is peace in Pakistan; no other agenda please.

About secularism, remember Pakistan was made for Islam, otherwise it will make little difference, if we live in Sindhudesh, Republic of Baluchistan, or greater Pakhtonkhwa, Punjab can coin its new name, (or even it has no history of standing as a separate nation, so) we can join our secular India or what about a secular Khalistan?- Anyway history will take its course-no need to stick to that maroon Islamic poet's Idea.

I see, I would love to have some support by credible evidence of the sort to elaborate your assertion. I am not dismissing it, though, asking for some proofs.

Secondly, I assure you, I've never been to the USA, I've never been contacted by any CIA official and I support secularism in Pakistan. I'm 100% Pakistani and I believe that Pakistan was created for the Muslims, not Islam, Islam needs no land, actually brother. People do. Do I have no say in Pakistani affairs? I do not want an 'Islamist' system in Pakistan, am I eligible to exile? Do I not have the right to prescribe to my views in Pakistan?

Thirdly, I have said it again and again, it does not really matter if the Talibs have external support or not. Can we not defeat them? Militarily and ideologically? They've killed nearly 50,000 of my nation's civilians mind you by taking responsibilty on paper and on TV so there is proof of that. If you don't believe it I would welcome a source that both of us can agree upon. For people who have killed so many of my green-and-white brothers to go free does not fit well with me.

Whether America's War or RAW design the TTP has killed most Pakistanis, why do they not go into the Afghan lands and fight the USA with their Afghani comrades? No. They are enemies of Pakistan and thus this is Pakistan's war, at least to me and a significant part of the people of Pakistan, you are too. However, I disagree that Pakistan is for Islam, it is for Pakistanis and any who murders Pakistanis is an enemy of Pakistan.

 

[Tambram]

Pakistan will pay the price for basing its creation on a false foundation - religion alone. Now you cant escape the ghosts of the past by attempting to be secular - because it will be a fraud against your founding philosophy. If secular, then why the split with India? And if you agree that Islam is the way to go, then who gets to titrate and prescribe its dose - that this much is enough, and no more. If Islam, then TTP has a more defensible philosophy and you must go whole hog into a purely Islamic polity.

It will also be rather clear by now that Islam, by itself, cannot act as a political cement. In fact, the schism between the "moderates", and the purists is tearing apart the entire Muslim world - from Libya to Pakistan.

Pakistan will ultimately fission because it has not been able to define its existential philosophy so far - secularism will nullify its raison d'etre and lead to identity loss, while a purely Islamist identity is against the entire cultural history of Punjabis and Sindhis and is therefore unacceptable. So a compromise gets work out. But this can only be a day to day holding position and cannot even provided medium term stability - certainly not a cement between the Pakhtoons and the rest.

Pakistan appears to be doomed to split in near future, along with Afghanistan, as the Pushtuns form a trans -Durand nation.

 

[Anotherangle]

I see, I would love to have some support by credible evidence of the sort to elaborate your assertion............................................................................... any who murders Pakistanis is an enemy of Pakistan.

Which assertion particulary you ask about; my observation or something else- About tribal groups, there is no question if the they are enemy or not. the questions is whether they are the only enemy on the ground or there are others too? obviously, there are other enemies as well; we had terrorism and bomb blasts before the birth of these outfits. RAW is continuously waging proxy war in Pakistan; they have their won agenda and they do not rely on one organization. From BLA to MQM, they help anyone that can cause chaos in Pakistan. The same is true for Afghan and other interested parties; Libyan ambassador was kidnapped and tortured by the intelligence agencies in 1980s because they were running HATHORA Group (a terrorist group used to kill randomly whole family at night); do you remember it? Now find the motive of Libyans for creating law and order situation in Pakistan? will you? International Politics is a dirty game; it is never clean.

EDIT: I said Pakistan is for Islam only to mention the fact that It was created for Muslims of India; to live in a secular state? No, it was never told to them; rather the street slogan by which the crowd moves was " La ilah- ha IL'LAL'LAh". It means Mr. Jinnah and others deliberately deceived them or we are misinterpreting the whole thing?!? Pakistan if changed, it can be changed towards more Islam, not less. Taliban or no Taliban is not relevant- The tribal groups were never related and not related to this topic at all, and they should not be! both should be kept separated. and remember when (before 1972) there was no ideology taught in Pakistan Text Books, we got it cut into two (during a martial-law) and if diverted from Islamic ideology, we will be divided into four parts and do not think the army could stop it, even if they tried they would get bombed by US and allies like Yugoslavia. .............. I could elaborate more and more very clearly if had time.

 

[Tambram]

Which assertion particulary you ask about; my observation or something else- About tribal groups, there is no question if the they are enemy or not. the questions is whether they are the only enemy on the ground or there are others too? obviously, there are other enemies as well; we had terrorism and bomb blasts before the birth of these outfits. RAW is continuously waging proxy war in Pakistan; they have their won agenda and they do not rely on one organization. From BLA to MQM, they help anyone that can cause chaos in Pakistan. The same is true for Afghan and other interested parties; Libyan ambassador was kidnapped and tortured by the intelligence agencies in 1980s because they were running HATHORA Group (a terrorist group used to kill randomly whole family at night); do you remember it? Now find the motive of Libyans for creating law and order situation in Pakistan? will you? International Politics is a dirty game; it is never clean.

I never said Pakistan is for Islam; It was created for Muslims of India to live in a secular state? No, it was never told to them; rather the street slogan by which the crowd moves was " La ilah- ha IL'LAL'LAh". It means Mr. Jinnah and others deliberately deceived them or you are misinterpreting the whole thing?!? Pakistan if changed, it can be changed towards more Islam, not less. Taliban or no Taliban is not relevant- The tribal groups were never related and not related to this topic at all, and they should not be! both should be kept separated. and remember when (before 1972) there was no ideology taught in Pakistan Text Books, we got it cut into two (during a martial-law) and if diverted from Islamic ideology, we will be divided into four parts and do not think the army could stop it, even if they tried they would get bombed by US and allies like Yugoslavia. .............. I can elaborate more and more very clearly if had time.

Can you even get funnier?? Creation of a secular state for religious group! The same schizophrenia permeates every aspect of Pakistani life, which is why you are slowly, but surely sliding towards a breakup. No nation can survive for long without a credible narrative. I wonder if you even realise how absurd your narrative sounds.

 

[Anotherangle]

Can you even get funnier?? Creation of a secular state for religious group! The same schizophrenia permeates every aspect of Pakistani life, which is why you are slowly, but surely sliding towards a breakup. No nation can survive for long without a credible narrative. I wonder if you even realise how absurd your narrative sounds.

Actually I edited the line probably the same time you were posting; now read it again

 

[jaibi]

Which assertion particulary you ask about; my observation or something else- About tribal groups, there is no question if the they are enemy or not. the questions is whether they are the only enemy on the ground or there are others too? obviously, there are other enemies as well; we had terrorism and bomb blasts before the birth of these outfits. RAW is continuously waging proxy war in Pakistan; they have their won agenda and they do not rely on one organization. From BLA to MQM, they help anyone that can cause chaos in Pakistan. The same is true for Afghan and other interested parties; Libyan ambassador was kidnapped and tortured by the intelligence agencies in 1980s because they were running HATHORA Group (a terrorist group used to kill randomly whole family at night); do you remember it? Now find the motive of Libyans for creating law and order situation in Pakistan? will you? International Politics is a dirty game; it is never clean.

EDIT: I said Pakistan is for Islam only to mention the fact that It was created for Muslims of India; to live in a secular state? No, it was never told to them; rather the street slogan by which the crowd moves was " La ilah- ha IL'LAL'LAh". It means Mr. Jinnah and others deliberately deceived them or we are misinterpreting the whole thing?!? Pakistan if changed, it can be changed towards more Islam, not less. Taliban or no Taliban is not relevant- The tribal groups were never related and not related to this topic at all, and they should not be! both should be kept separated. and remember when (before 1972) there was no ideology taught in Pakistan Text Books, we got it cut into two (during a martial-law) and if diverted from Islamic ideology, we will be divided into four parts and do not think the army could stop it, even if they tried they would get bombed by US and allies like Yugoslavia. .............. I could elaborate more and more very clearly if had time.

Actually, look at India, it's much greater diversity it had no martial law it has not divided as yet as per their constitution they're a socialist state. So Mr. Jinnah decieved no one, he wanted a state for Muslims not an theocracy, he says so in his speeches. Secondly, our religious class has classically been anti-Pakistani, Jamieet being very prominent in that, back then there was no such clause.

Thirdly, the debate is not whom Pakistan is for, you will agree with me that Pakistan is for Pakistanis is it not? Quiad-e-Azam himself said he's the protector of minorities, he proclaimed we're Pakistanis beyond religious and ethinic divide. So no, we won't be splitting anywhere if we go towards secularisation such thinking has poisioned us enough. We will divide if we do not cater the social contract of equality, prosperity and powersharing with every Pakistani, all separatist movements are born out of material inequalities not ideological ones: give provinces their federal right, give them control of their regions and everyone will be happy to be Pakistani.

Come out of this marriage of defence, brother, it's an unhealthy defence mechanism that has been sold to us over and over again. We are Pakistanis because we choose to and want to.

 

[Tambram]

Actually I edited the line probably the same time you were posting; now read it again

Fine! you your view are clear in this regard. But is that your country's collective narrative? If so, they should be supporting TTP rather than fighting them.

 

[Anotherangle]

Fine! you your view are clear in this regard. But is that your country's collective narrative? If so, they should be supporting TTP rather than fighting them.

Why should TTP and Pakistan be discussed together? TTP is a new and foreign idea; we can implement our ideas through democracy and as much as we like. We are quite united in this regard, both TTP and the secular pro-mushraf sort are in really thin minority although this does not appear so on this forum and other English media. Yet this is the fact;TTP in the tribal areas and the secular bourgeois class only on net have their hideouts, and both want to conquer Pakistan!(edit)

 

[W.11]

there should be four conditions

1) taliban lay down their weapons

2) all the terrorists must be prosecuted

3) taliban org must be disbanded

4) army will evacuate only when a competent police force is raised

and then we can offer compensation to the victim and their families and development of the area

 

[Tambram]

Why should TTP and Pakistan be discussed together? TTP is a new and foreign idea; we can implement our ideas through democracy and as much as we like. We are quite united in this regard, both TTP and the secular pro-mushraf sort are in really thin minority although this does not appear so on this forum and other English media. Yet this is the fact;TTP in the tribal areas and the secular bourgeois class only on net have these hideouts!

If you are a student of history, you will realize that an ideological middle ground cannot last for long. A compromise can be maintained for some time by use of disproportionate resources, but it is an unstable equilibrium. In an ideological creation such as Pakistan, extremism always wins in the end because that is the purest product and ideologically the most defensible. Pakistan is somewhat different from a purely ideology oriented nation because the majority of the people, consisting of Punjabis and Sindhis, were not Islam oriented. They just benefited from partition, and I do not think that they have, on account of history and culture, any stomach for radical Islam. But because of ideological dissonance - difference between what they are and what they are told to be, they will always be in a state of confusion, which is why a coherent and strong response against Radical elements may not be possible. This will go on for some time. The extremists gaining both physical and ideological space, and the Pakistani majority vacillating between one "solution" to another - some suggesting a military solution, some development, and others a compromise using varying mixes of Islam and secular polity. The end result of such a situation is inevitable - a split of the nation between the culturally moderate Punjabis and Sindhis, and the extremist tribal elements.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Lets keep discussing and going back and forth while TTP and related animal groups continue to kill our people. Just by watching TV today i realised how divided we have become. Imran Khan with his smirk telling us not to make the Church suicide blast a political one while also mentioning drone strikes.

Nawaz sharif is still recovering from his happiness of becoming King of Pakistan. By the time he wakes up he is going to be in big trouble. I have a feeling that Nawaz Sharif and Imran Khan will either run away like cowards when the time gets tough or they will be killed like the criminals they are.