Marshmallow
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I do not get it, how did you conclude from the Indian status duo that Jinnah did not deceive us- I am not saying he deceived but we misinterpret-Actually, look at India, it's much greater diversity it had no martial law it has not divided as yet as per their constitution they're a socialist state. So Mr. Jinnah decieved no one,
We are the Muslim stat, not a theocracy, nor secular and this is at least what we should be.he wanted a state for Muslims not an theocracy, he says so in his speeches.
There was also very strong and larger religious class that supported Pakistan movement; Yet there were those who opposed the idea on solid grounds and if we go secular, their vision would stand victorious (Just to add a note, most religious scholars-whether they supported Pakistan or opposed-were worried about bloodshed that would result from division, they were not wrong and AbdulKalam azad was also right about division of Pakistan in 25 years- proven facts)Secondly, our religious class has classically been anti-Pakistani, Jamieet being very prominent in that, back then there was no such clause.
The minorities were all well in Pakistan until the war on terror started, and you don't make minorities your president or prime minister- just try mentioning Islam with Obama's name, all secularism in US will vanish in thin air!!Thirdly, the debate is not whom Pakistan is for, you will agree with me that Pakistan is for Pakistanis is it not? Quiad-e-Azam himself said he's the protector of minorities,
Agreed and social equality has nothing to do with secularism or Islamic republic;Instead spread quality education- moreover I grew up under the shadow of Sindhudesh, so I know what is real problem; as long as punjabis are 60% of Pakistanis there cannot be equal sharing of power; can you change this with secularism?will divide if we do not cater the social contract of equality, prosperity and power sharing with every Pakistani, all separatist movements are born out of material inequalities not ideological ones: give provinces their federal right, give them control of their regions and everyone will be happy to be Pakistani.
how then secularism is healthy?it will cut the religion out of every body's heart? or is it as healthy as in Egypt? Dear Islam is not about defense; it is about our history and future, about constitution, about way of life, about millions martyrs during 47, about millions martyrs in 71, about survival of my generation; It is no small matter and those who argue for anti-Islamist secular state are less wise than that vision-less, half stupid general Musharraf.Come out of this marriage of defence, brother, it's an unhealthy defence
Sold to us, When first time???! you go back to decide about the time to 1940s or 1970s; if you say 70s and 80s, then it was to avoid another tragedy of 71 like, and for no more reason- not done by politician but by PA. YoU CHOOSE TO BE PAKISTANI? I HAVE LIVED MOST MY LIFE AMONG THOSE MILLIONS WHO CHOOSE NOT TO BE CALLED PAKISTANI, WHENEVER THEY CAN CHOOSE!mechanism that has been sold to us over and over again. We are Pakistanis because we choose to and want to.
If by secularism people mean peace and tolerance between religion than it is welcomed.
if it means removing Objective resolution then you people should consider migrating back to India.
One of the best posts I have ever read -
I do not get it, how did you conclude from the Indian status duo that Jinnah did not deceive us- I am not saying he deceived but we misinterpret-
We are the Muslim stat, not a theocracy, nor secular and this is at least what we should be.
There was also very strong and larger religious class that supported Pakistan movement; Yet there were those who opposed the idea on solid grounds and if we go secular, their vision would stand victorious (Just to add a note, most religious scholars-whether they supported Pakistan or opposed-were worried about bloodshed that would result from division, they were not wrong and AbdulKalam azad was also right about division of Pakistan in 25 years- proven facts)
Your Example of India does not fit well as India is not like Pakistan[/QUOTE}
The example of India fits well because we were nations birthed into the same age, by the same parent, faced the same issues and we came out differently. That is the essential feature of most sociology, political science and historic based studies of the nation-state. If you do not believe in the epistemology of the social sciences then that's another debate that I would welcome elsewhere where it is appropriate, not here.
1. India has no role of military in politics, we have till today
Yes, I know, that is because of the trajectories we went into and in fact the point of much investigation by scholars all over the world.
2. india as no single linguistic province dominating the national institutions, we have and it will remain so, even if we divide that province- punjab.
Actually no, we have a diverse linguistic distribution, the Saraki, Hindko and other dialects that we clump with northern Punjabi assert their language's independence from the Punjabi we know today, which evolved from the belt of Lahore-Amratsar and got promoted due to the Sikh scriptures and the Sufi Saints, like BullehShah, using her as the vehicle of promotion. It was the British administration that clumbed us together. India as about 14 national languages and about 23 regional ones. Punjabi is recongnised in India as an official language and a medium of educational instruction it is not so in Pakistan. If we were intelligent enough to accept the different languages of the region that are spoken we will easily have 10 regional and 5-8 official languages of the nation. However, our attempts to stump out all other identies except what we want is the reason why we see ourselves as hegemonic, we are not so at least according to our political, social, psychological and even ancient history.
3. India troubled provinces are not more than 20%, Pakistan has trouble in 75% (3 out of 4 provinces)
As I said this is because our own identities are not allowed to flourish. I mean as a Punjabi who is suppose to dominate the politics of Pakistan, I cannot write a single official document in my language neither can I have my children enrolled in a school where Punjabi is the medium of instruction. So what do you expect? It is becuase we have robbed people of their rightful dignity of their ancestory and culture for a perceived threat to our national self-esteem and identity.
4. India has a historical narrative- they were colonized and got independence in 1947; if you do away with Islam, what historical narrative you have other than anti-Hindu? So if you are not Islamic, you are only anti-Hindu secualr (Muslim/Pakistani/what?)
As I suggested, sir, we need to think about it as a nation. My prespective based on the actual rather than the polluted history we read in our text books states that we were a nation-state created for the Muslims of India, that does not mean an Islamic State. Our original architects, if they are to be taken as a compass, did not name us an Islamic Republic rather as State. I mean the first generation of ML members who actually fought for Pakistan.
, who made Pakistan to be free from Hindu oppression? look at the contradictions in the single phrase; only because we did away with Islam, we would not be able to teach history to coming generations and answer the question why your majority Muslim province could not offer their majority population ample economic opportunities?
Actually that is a perspective, not the perspective. For example, there was no Hindu oppression in Lahore, none in NWFP, which was actually very pro-Congress. So what Hindu oppression? Secondly, nearly 8.6% of Sindh is Hindu, if Hindus are enemies, are they as well? Are we not, based on this tailored political leanings, doing the same things to them that we feared the Hindus would do to us? Let me give you an example, according to the State law: for any degree it is compulsory to have Islamiat passed if one is Muslim or Ethics if they are non-Muslim. Why cannot a Christian child have Bible studies? Why cannot a Hindu child have Hindu Studies in school or college? Maybe because we are treating them as the second class citizens doing to them what we thought the Hindus in India would do to us/
5.(edit) India could not choose other than secular model a) because it would have divided India before 1947-
The Cabinet Mission plan had three denominations, the basic division of India was based on ethnic not political grounds. I would recommend you also read the Dr. Ambedikar career's in India, it would enlighten what I am talking about. Secondly, the British Raj was our true enemy, during WWI and afterwards they appeased the modernist class of Muslim India because they were to be the fodder of the British army against the Muslim Turks. Then in WWII when the Indian nationalist movements were very strong they appeased the pro-Separatists because that would successfully divide the political opposition. It would also be a point to note that the rise of the Japenese power against Western powers (defeating Russia and then challenging USA) was noted amongst Asians, they sentiments that Europeans were not infallible was being well catered. It is a tragedy that Indians see this as the Raj fooling the Muslims and the Muslims as the Raj giving them an oppertunity to their advantage. However, in truth perhaps it is that the Raj divided and maintained us divided, not in terms of nations but people: even now it is not written in stone that India-Pakistan-China must be enemies. Europe faced exactly the same dilemmas we do and their synthesis was the EU. They will not allow that model to come up in Asia ever because we are fooled over and over again.
b) Muslims were leaders of the Congress c) the party claimed to represent every one, d) Hinduism was/is actually no united religion (e.g Herigons are beef eater-it was declared one religion after 19th centuries Hindu movements), so 70% Hindu even do not make an overwhelming majority and 30% population is too large to be ignored,
Actually those same arguments are put on us, Sunni majority, Muslim majority, Punjabi majority and so on. This is politics, brother, nothing else. Religion has been interpreted differently so has been culture expressed differently and nation states who oppress that feature face problems.
especially when some states have majority population of non-Hindus. Indian unity is hidden in secularism; While Pakistan is 97% Muslim, its unity is in Islam!
By your own argument their unity was just as good as our unity which was rudimentry and political not actual.
The minorities were all well in Pakistan
That, sir, is a myth. I am surprised you are asserting that.
until the war on terror started,
No, they were bad before and worse off later if any change has happened it's been in the wrong direction.
and you don't make minorities your president or prime minister- just try mentioning Islam with Obama's name, all secularism in US will vanish in thin air!!
Actually, India, the USA, Lebnon have had 'minorities' hold high offices. India made a Muslim their president and it is not unbelievable to have a Muslim as India's PM/HM or something though it would take time. Yet, this is a possibility there, not here, sir. Secondly, the greatest political campaign on Barak Hussain Obama started during his two election bids yet, the USA elected him. There seems to be a misinterpretation that secularism means that political parties who promote religion based ideologies do not get representation. They do, such parties exist in every nation in the world. It is just that they need the people's mandate to direct the nation. Something like that has happened in Turkey, yet again, the mandate is promoted by the people not enforeced on them like we have been doing.
Agreed and social equality has nothing to do with secularism or Islamic republic;Instead spread quality education- moreover I grew up under the shadow of Sindhudesh, so I know what is real problem; as long as punjabis are 60% of Pakistanis there cannot be equal sharing of power; can you change this with secularism?
Actually social-liberalism that basically promotes that there is no such thing as minorities or second class citizen and everyone has a share of the social contract of the society bases itself on secularism, the closest egalitarian system exists in Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark. People there have the highest standards of living and these nations are secular. I'm not saying that that's what we want or should have just giving you empirical proof of secularism working out good.
how then secularism is healthy?it will cut the religion out of every body's heart?
Again, sir, this is a misconception, that's not what secularism entails that's what autocracy entails and that's what we have seen in the third world. Just as we ask people not to blame Islam on what Muslims do we should do the same for philosophies.
or is it as healthy as in Egypt?
The problem of the Arab world is not that simple there are wide arrays of factors that center their condition today and I don't think this is the perfect thread to answer their conditions.
Dear Islam is not about defense; it is about our history and future, about constitution, about way of life,
Actually culture has over 10,000 years of human history behind it as well, faith is just a part of it. A Pakistani Christian has just as much culture as we do and a right on it.
Future rests on our choices more that anything else.
Constitution depends on our state as a society we can have the best laws and be the worse country. It's not about making laws, it is about following them.
about millions martyrs during 47,
There were millions of 'martyrs' from the Hindu and Sikh community as well. They were killed in retaliation and our faith, humanity and every moral states that genocide is wrong no matter where it happens or who does it. Islam does not work on an eye for an eye. It did not matter to an unborn child in a mother's womb who was the bearer of the sword that killed them, Sikh, Hindu or Muslim. It was a human loss and every murderer and plunderer is guilty of it: Sikh, Hindu or Muslim.
about millions martyrs in 71,
That was our fault, the 'Muslims' of Pakistan oppressing the other 'Muslims' of Pakistan. A historical event, a great tragic loss of life but not just for us Pakistanis. It has nothing to do with Islam.
about survival of my generation;
I would also see our generation survive but the man who is coming to kill us is wearing a turban and screaming 'AllahuAkbar' not 'Jai Mata di'. I have lost friends in this war, they were killed by so-called custodians of faith, sir, not a Hindu, not an American.
It is no small matter and those who argue for anti-Islamist secular state are less wise than that vision-less, half stupid general Musharraf.
You are mistaking paternistic imperialism for moderation, moderation is of the mind. Moderate Musharaf and Mullah Zia were same creatures, so called fathers for our orphaned nation and they did exactly the same thing I have been telling you: imposing an ideology, not letting it synthesis. Whether that be in the name of Islam or moderation that is wrong, it is the tool not the philosophy that is flawed.
Sold to us, When first time???! you go back to decide about the time to 1940s or 1970s; if you say 70s and 80s, then it was to avoid another tragedy of 71 like, and for no more reason- not done by politician but by PA. YoU CHOOSE TO BE PAKISTANI? I HAVE LIVED MOST MY LIFE AMONG THOSE MILLIONS WHO CHOOSE NOT TO BE CALLED PAKISTANI, WHENEVER THEY CAN CHOOSE!
I elaborated this process above, imposition of ideologies, that is what I am talking about. Imposition of ideologies has lead to the '71 tragedy, the current loss of 50,000 we have suffered. It will continue to do the same once you and I are gone and our children our here. The Pakistan Army had to fill in the gaps left by various sources so the blame is not entirely on them.
Then brother, I have a choice not to be Pakistani to take immigration now in the zenith of my youth and serve a white man in Canada or UK or somewhere and have a comfortable house if I work for it. I choose to be here, with my people, who I want to live and die for (though more living) do I not represent the same thing you want in essence just in a different package?
Added a poll.
Thanks Aero!
Thank you, Marsha I tried to write for papers but they said they don't publish the style I have
Jinnah broke Pakistan away in 1947 to ensure he does not lose prominence to Nehru post independence and used the excuse of creating a separate Muslim state to disguise his ambition. That excuse over the years has mutated to its current form of religious extremism in Pakistan.
Secularism is a good dream but never gonna happen in Pakistan. Religion wise, Pakistan does not have enough diversity to allow for secularism. The best bet Pakistan can have is to move away from current sectarian strife..
Thanks for such a long reply; I would not answer in detail for several reasons including that we are already rather off topic! but a very brief statement in points:Thank ...The Pakistan Army had to fill in the gaps left by various source(
....
We actually still don’t learnt to write things according to their actual perspective, first this idea of creating a secular state after broking a secular state itself sounds a wrong beat, May be you could prove it right in front of some die hard nationalists but not in front of world. Then the 2nd point is that we still don’t understand, what we really have lost in war on terror, It’s the status of QOM, Now even If you use the term QOMI MUFAD itself sounds and empty terminology at current scenario of our state , There is no common interest left among us , Just took an example of APC , Do you believe that the parties taking part in APC are the complete or Half representator of Pakistan even? And If they are then are they seems unite? I agreed with @Anotherangle from all prespective specially the point where he mentioned the complete dominance of Punjab in our establishment throughout the history , Just have a Poll here that Are other provinces have equivalent authority in making decision in national interest or not , and majority of non-punjabi Pakistani members will click on Not , as majority is not satisfied with the center , and political parties and national institutions have came too far in internal conflicts that they couldn’t even think as QOM . So the term QOMI MUFAD and QOMI FAISLA is no more exist in reality. Its just authorities are tossing it as where they need to apply this terminology for personal cause.
Ulti Ganga bahane walay , Just calm yourself first , I speak what I listen in opinions , don't try to bring a different topic to justify your current status , A person could speak in multiple topics If he\she lives in such a diverse society . As far as share is concerned then the major portion of share always goes to elites of these provinces , while a common person dies in waiting that when a help from federation will come to it. You know What, I personally have enough land and resources that I don’t need care about myself or my Generations. I try to avoid public matters but I can’t . What a die hard nationalist thinks is no more the opinion of folks , They are struggling for even basic needs . Some of them are real technicians but have nothing to invest so could start their own business , If they were in thousands then ok that could be fixed , but they are in millions and each and every time our city’s population are expanding so quick that it cannot be able to feed everyone at a time.Stop pulling numbers or probabilities out of your behind and provide proof. Dont go off on tangents on Punjabi this and Punjabi that. I have noticed your posts of being on the extremist end to the point of being an Islamo-Fascist. Punjab has the largest population, they have always been the most educated and the richest province. So obviously you are going to see their dominance in the affairs of the country. This slowly has decentralized for the better as time passes other provinces are getting their fair share.
Punjabi nahin milega to shia sunni. Woh nahin to kafir munafiq. You guys are one and the same.
In the end i know these talks will fail, kab tak Islam ke naam par karenge yeh hame majboor. That day isnt far that these antics by extremists will lead to a genocidal tendency amongst the helpless and will bring on the wrath of the silent majority. The peshawar blasts should be a wake up, we stand with Pakistanis be they Christians, Shias, Sunnis, Jews, Pastafarians, Believe in Zeus, juicce or whatever. Sab se pahle Pakistan.