A confused Pakistani

[VCheng]

VCheng. Those who rule also come from the same stock. Tell me, does your Army not realize its excesses are ruining Pakistan. Does your Army not feel that the direction and assets it wanted to use for its purpose have led the nation astray. In the Pakistani Army's view it needs to be able to match India, look India in the eye and say f*ck off for it to be content, has it ever questioned that the money it uses up to be able to do so till date has led to a lot less for other equally if not more important areas like education, health?

Please don't forget that other States have armies, but the Army has a State in Pakistan.

And what now? Now when it needs more and more money to even match its previous level of defence against India?
Should they not voluntarily reduce their own budget?

Voluntarily? No.

Do your politicians realize your country has to keep begging in front of the world every 3rd year? Do they know that unemployement is on the rise?

As long as their pockets are filled, who among the politicians cares what begging does or about unemployment?

Dont they want to fix it?

No. The present system works fabulously well for a select few. Why change it?

Ok, lets talk about the mango men, do they realize that burning and killing people of other ethnicity/race/religion/sect is hurting their nation?

No, as long as they themselves are okay.

When everyone is busy doing their own thing, on what basis do you say that Pakistani's want change?

The vast majority of Pakistanis who are not part of the elite are one one crying out for a change.

Or are you talking about the ones who sit at home and do nothing, and yet expect someone else to take their country in a direction they want? The Sheeples?

I am talking about the those millions upon millions upon millions who are presently in the lower socioeconomic classes with a deteriorating present and dire future prospects.

 

[Solomon2]

Y...people slowly are coming back to Islam and trying to follow it some are trying to follow it completely other some parts but a good thing -

Go on, tell your audience specifically WHAT "coming back to Islam" is and why it's "a good thing".

After all, if you can't explain why should Pakistanis bother, exactly?

 

[darkinsky]

It breaks my heart reading articles and comments like this. I miss the Pakistan of the old days which was extremist free. It seemed back then people were less angry and frustrated then now. Now we have self proclaimed mullahs being backed by oil dollars opening up madrasahs were kids get free meals and brainwash them into thinking in such a hateful way.

if it breaks your heart come to pakistan and stop being an immigrant, the view of an immigrant is as little as view of an outsider

you are living in a country who itself supported extremists so stop whining after the mess your own country created

 

[474474]

Dont loose hope , a nation taught and brought up on false history and propaganda for several decades will not fix quickly its a long process

I'm on this forum since I was 13, I have every right to say that I've tried to show sense to the fundos on this forum, friends, family etc. but no matter how much you try their brainwashed beyond repair.

The 'educated' jahils are worse than taliban, atleast taliban can be rehabilitated as they know they're uneducated and they'll accept theyre wrong

Perfectly put


I see no identity crisis among most of Pakistanis I know; must be the liberal-fascists and such this article is talking about.

You seem to be in one, lib or facist?

 

[474474]

VCheng. Those who rule also come from the same stock. Tell me, does your Army not realize its excesses are ruining Pakistan. Does your Army not feel that the direction and assets it wanted to use for its purpose have led the nation astray. In the Pakistani Army's view it needs to be able to match India, look India in the eye and say f*ck off for it to be content, has it ever questioned that the money it uses up to be able to do so till date has led to a lot less for other equally if not more important areas like education, health?

And what now? Now when it needs more and more money to even match its previous level of defence against India?
Should they not voluntarily reduce their own budget? Maybe sign a no aggression pact with India or ask US to be a guarantor of territory against any Indian aggression? US already offered that to Pakistan once.

Do your politicians realize your country has to keep begging in front of the world every 3rd year? Do they know that unemployement is on the rise?

Dont they want to fix it?

Ok, lets talk about the mango men, do they realize that burning and killing people of other ethnicity/race/religion/sect is hurting their nation?

When everyone is busy doing their own thing, on what basis do you say that Pakistani's want change?

Or are you talking about the ones who sit at home and do nothing, and yet expect someone else to take their country in a direction they want? The Sheeples?

You blame the military for everything while sittign in india, you want to see Pakistan weak, you want kashmir and sir creek for yourself. And you'll get a sadistic pleasure in seeing KP and balochistan break away.
But inside Pak, we know the army is far better than the govt. the govt. may be of the people, but the army is of only the best of the best the most patriotic and loyal; what the army goes through in training is the best possible filter Pakistan needs. All the solutions you mentioned, they were the govts' responsibilty, but the govt has a beef with the army, they want the army and the nation to lose.
And the last part, we aint got no guns nigga, plus we got jobs and families

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I miss the Pakistan of the old days which was extremist free. It seemed back then people were less angry and frustrated then now.

You guys have such negative opinion about Pakistan as if everyone who live there is extremist. I can say surely that vast majority of Pakistani are not extremist and they are against any religious extremism.I am not even talking about educated people but no sane Pakistani like terrorism and killing of innocent in the name of Islam or jihad. You guys should stop looking at Pakistani from western suspicious eyes Also if someone talk about Islam don't mean he is extremist

 

[VCheng]

You guys have such negative opinion about Pakistan as if everyone who live there is extremist. I can say surely that vast majority of Pakistani are not extremist and they are against any religious extremism.I am not even talking about educated people but no sane Pakistani like terrorism and killing of innocent in the name of Islam or jihad. You guys should stop looking at Pakistani from western suspicious eyes Also if someone talk about Islam don't mean he is extremist

How sure are you of that? Here is a 2009 survey from Pakistan that might give you pause to think:

Excerpt from: Pakistani Public Opinion | Pew Global Attitudes Project

Support for Severe Laws

One of the ironies in the survey is the extent to which Pakistanis embrace some of the severe laws associated with the Taliban and al Qaeda, even as they reject Islamic extremism and these extremist groups. The new poll finds broad support for harsh punishments: 78% favor death for those who leave Islam; 80% favor whippings and cutting off hands for crimes like theft and robbery; and 83% favor stoning adulterers.

Pakistani public opinion departs significantly from the Taliban on the issues of girls’ education and extremist violence. As many as 87% of Pakistanis believe it is equally important for boys and girls to be educated. The poll also finds that support for suicide bombing that targets civilians in defense of Islam remains very low. Only 5% of Pakistani Muslims believe these kinds of attacks can often or sometimes be justified; as recently as 2004 roughly four-in-ten (41%) held this view. Fully 87% now say such attacks can never be justified — the highest percentage among the Muslim publics included in the 2009 survey.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

How sure are you of that? Here is a 2009 survey from Pakistan that might give you pause to think:

Excerpt from: Pakistani Public Opinion | Pew Global Attitudes Project

There are few questions here which you should answer before discussing your polls/survey of 2009

How many people participated in this poll ? who were they? Result of polls will be completely different if you conduct it in waziristan or in Karachi.

Second question is how you define extremism? If someone talk about religious/sharia laws then is he extremist? Having laws in muslim country based on interpretation of Islam is extremism?

Third some findings of this survey is very positive for example 87% of Pakistanis believe education is important for boys and girls . The poll also finds that support for suicide bombing that targets civilians in defence of Islam remains very low. Only 5% of Pakistani Muslims believe these kinds of attacks can often or sometimes be justified

 

[VCheng]

There are few questions here which you should answer before discussing your polls/survey of 2009

How many people participated in this poll ? who were they? Result of polls will be completely different if you conduct it in waziristan or in Karachi.

Second question is how you define extremism? If someone talk about religious/sharia laws then is he extremist? Having laws in muslim country based on interpretation of Islam is extremism?

Third some findings of this survey is very positive for example 87% of Pakistanis believe education is important for boys and girls . The poll also finds that support for suicide bombing that targets civilians in defence of Islam remains very low. Only 5% of Pakistani Muslims believe these kinds of attacks can often or sometimes be justified

You really should go through the entire survey yourself, you may find it interesting:

SURVEY METHODS

Results for the survey are based on face-to-face interviews conducted May 22 to June 9, 2009. The survey in Pakistan is part of the larger 2009 Pew Global Attitudes survey conducted in 24 nations and the Palestinian territories from May 18 to June 16, 2009, under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. (For more results from the 25-nation 2009 poll, see ”Confidence in Obama Lifts U.S. Image Around the World,” released July 23, 2009.)

The table below provides details about the survey’s methodology, including the margin of sampling error based on all interviews conducted in Pakistan. For the results based on the full sample, one can say with 95% confidence that the error attributable to sampling and other random effects is plus or minus the margin of error. In addition to sampling error, one should bear in mind that question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls.

The sample covers roughly 90% of the adult population. All four provinces of Pakistan were sampled excluding areas of instability in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) and Baluchistan. Instability also made it impossible to survey the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), Federally Administered Northern Areas (FANA), and Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK). The sample is disproportionately urban due to the greater heterogeneity of the urban population. The sample is 55% urban while Pakistan’s population is roughly 33% urban. Data are weighted to reflect the actual urban/rural split in Pakistan.

Of course, there are positive news in there as well. I do not cherry-pick data.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

You really should go through the entire survey yourself, you may find it interesting:

actually you have to define word "extremism". Those who don't believe in Islam or Islamic God consider every Islamic law or even fasting/parda as outdated and extremist practice . I don't feel the need to live according to their expectation.

 

[VCheng]

actually you have to define word "extremism". Those who don't believe in Islam or Islamic God consider every Islamic law or even fasting/parda as outdated and extremist practice . I don't feel the need to live according to their expectation.

You make a fair point, but then again perceptions rule, don't they?

 

[Contrarian]

VCheng, let me rephrase my question:
Who are these people in Pakistan who want change?
What are they doing about it.


Pakistani's constantly say that they have a moderate majority, etc, etc. But we dont see that. What we see are Taliban's blowing people up, Pakistani's blowing other people up(of any nation), Murderer's being feted by educated lawyers, cold drinks banned because they were owned by an Ahmadiya, killings of shia's, etc.

I dont see the average Joe asking for Blasphemy laws to be removed. I dont see the average Joe demonstrating and demanding(not asking) for anti-Ahmadiya laws to be repealed.

So if the average Joe Pakistani wants a change, what is he doing about it? Waiting for better days by the grace of God?

Excerpt from: Pakistani Public Opinion | Pew Global Attitudes Project

Interesting, it shows that Pakistani's were ok and infact maybe supportive of suicide bombings in the name of Islam when they were being carried out in other nations - like India. But as soon as they started in Pakistan, their views changed and they take the high road - 'these types of attacks can never be justified'.

 

[modern_newton]

VCheng, let me rephrase my question:
Who are these people in Pakistan who want change?
What are they doing about it.


Pakistani's constantly say that they have a moderate majority, etc, etc. But we dont see that. What we see are Taliban's blowing people up, Pakistani's blowing other people up(of any nation), Murderer's being feted by educated lawyers, cold drinks banned because they were owned by an Ahmadiya, killings of shia's, etc.

I dont see the average Joe asking for Blasphemy laws to be removed. I dont see the average Joe demonstrating and demanding(not asking) for anti-Ahmadiya laws to be repealed.

So if the average Joe Pakistani wants a change, what is he doing about it? Waiting for better days by the grace of God?



Interesting, it shows that Pakistani's were ok and infact maybe supportive of suicide bombings in the name of Islam when they were being carried out in other nations - like India. But as soon as they started in Pakistan, their views changed and they take the high road - 'these types of attacks can never be justified'.

you are just talking bullshit. Pakistan did not have any problems before lal masjid incident and before joining this ******* war of terror which was complete mess for pakistan so stop acting idiot by finding all faults in pakistan and singing love songs for india.

 

[Rafael]

In next 20 years - Pakistan will be worse then Africa if it is not already. No way in hell a nation can survive when (roughly) 160 out of 180 million of its population is illiterate, violent, extremist and morally bankrupt!

 

[Armstrong]

In next 20 years - Pakistan will be worse then Africa if it is not already. No way in hell a nation can survive when (roughly) 160 out of 180 million of its population is illiterate, violent, extremist and morally bankrupt!

Thoraa ziyaadaa hogiyaa hai Rafael ! The same 160 million was doing just about fine during the Musharaf era & the one before that.