A Case for "Aurat March" - The different side of Story

[Xeson]

You can not argue that at least the issue is raised even when clearly it is raised in a very disturbing and poor manner

What I am saying is that the issue is raised is first thing, then again if you read along, I too say to right the wrongs by raising it right. But ignoring it or suggesting it is not an issue is not a solution. The point at hand is establishing it as a major issue and in right way is the next step.

Go volunteer in Edhi centers, children hospitals, teach acid victims how to live again, help a widow, get an orphan girl married, play with orphans, sponsor a girl for school or something else where your skills can be utilized.

All of that stand true and completely agree to that and just suggest to add working on women rights to the list not ignoring it as it is an issue.

However, as so many are saying what will a march/protest or placing posters and slogans do? let me tell you...
What does a scholar giving sermons to large gatherings do? What does a teacher giving lectures do? Why do we have seminars and exhibitions? Why are there rallies against and in support of something? What does holding military parades and national occasion and celebrations do?
Highlighting - Awareness - Education - Show of intent and will - Attracting focus to an issue
Its not the ultimate thing, nothing is, but its a part of the large spectrum which should not be denied.

 

[Dubious]

What I am saying is that the issue is raised is first thing, then again if you read along, I too say to right the wrongs by raising it right. But ignoring it or suggesting it is not an issue is not a solution. The point at hand is establishing it as a major issue and in right way is the next step.

Repeating what you said doesnt make it correct!

Now if I give a poor example of a serious issue esp by insulting say your family/ women/ culture/ religion, would you still agree at least the issue is raised?

Lets take an example, if someone raises the issue of rape and goes, for example your sister gets raped- at least the issue is raised?

Or someone raises an issue of alcoholism and says for example xyz's mamu who is an alcoholic = at least issue is raised?

Or someone goes terrorism for example islamic terrorism....at least issue is raised?

NO, when issue is raised with PATHETIC examples...it becomes less of a raised issue and more of an issue itself!

However, as so many are saying what will a march/protest or placing posters and slogans do? let me tell you...
What does a scholar giving sermons to large gatherings do?

So, you oked the placards that are disturbing?

Coz THAT SERMON is one our society can make do without!

 

[Muhammad Burham]

 

[Xeson]

Repeating what you said doesnt make it correct!

I concur. I am by no sorts opting for correctness but explanation. So please allow me to do it one last time.

Look at the pole above. As of now, despite the very small sample, 54.5% people think "WOMEN ARE NOT PERSECUTED AND ALREADY ENOUGH IS BEING DONE". This is the plethora this conversation is about for me and should be for everyone I believe. In the midst of Aurat March, feminism, Liberalism and all such stuff, while one group is going excessive in one direction, about which is all the controversy, the other group in denying that is going to similar extents in the other direction which shuts the fact of real women rights issue. Are women facing extreme rights issues with harassment and abuse and all that stuff in our society? I believe YES, poll speaks for itself.
This whole controversy is undermining the real issues (Women rights and Importance of Public march/gathering/rallies) and BOTH sides are responsible as if one is manipulating the issue and other is denying the issue. (Indeed there is no black and white and not all on both sides are completely and utterly the same).
Good luck to the middle grounders, Savvy!

 

[Dubious]

I concur. I am by no sorts opting for correctness but explanation. So please allow me to do it one last time.

Look at the pole above. As of now, despite the very small sample, 54.5% people think "WOMEN ARE NOT PERSECUTED AND ALREADY ENOUGH IS BEING DONE". This is the plethora this conversation is about for me and should be for everyone I believe. In the midst of Aurat March, feminism, Liberalism and all such stuff, while one group is going excessive in one direction, about which is all the controversy, the other group in denying that is going to similar extents in the other direction which shuts the fact of real women rights issue. Are women facing extreme rights issues with harassment and abuse and all that stuff in our society? I believe YES, poll speaks for itself.
This whole controversy is undermining the real issues (Women rights and Importance of Public march/gathering/rallies) and BOTH sides are responsible as if one is manipulating the issue and other is denying the issue. (Indeed there is no black and white and not all on both sides are completely and utterly the same).
Good luck to the middle grounders, Savvy!

I agree there is a problem.

I also agree when you claim equality, then you should also highlight men getting raped...You should also talk about men getting harassed (lower % but still exists) ...that is what equality about...Here the aurat march is doing some real somersaults with crap like freedom of this and that. We are on our way to look nice in media and now these selfish women are putting up BS (I do not say give me a voice as BS, nor do I call freedom from jahalat as a BS)

BS = Freedom from scarfs/ allow alcoholism/ allow same sex marraige

54.5% people think "WOMEN ARE NOT PERSECUTED AND ALREADY ENOUGH IS BEING DONE".

Then do something in that regard, educate?
Oh god forbid we touch about something constructive...Lets march?!

 

[Xeson]

You should also talk about men getting harassed (lower % but still exists)

(yes men (especially underage) too are victims)

As for me, I did point that out. Women march is supposed to be about "Women" I don't agree with, as is done, putting climate change, missing persons and all sort of stuff, tactic to gather numbers.

Then do something in that regard, educate?
Oh god forbid we touch about something constructive...Lets march?

All in, including march!

The real Question and Solution: How many women in your house, family, friends, acquaintance, neighborhood, village, town, city or country do you know or see persecuted in any way and what are you doing about it?

Highlighting - Awareness - Education - Show of intent and will - Attracting focus to an issue
Its not the ultimate thing, nothing is, but its a part of the large spectrum which should not be denied.

 

[Dubious]

All in, including march!

Sadly this march isnt highlighting these awareness...rather waving LGBT flags in a woman march kind of shows extremism

 

[Xeson]

Sadly this march isnt highlighting these awareness...rather waving LGBT flags in a woman march kind of shows extremism

Yes and even then, what approach should we have?
Some One: I can only guess if some one thought of how fun would it have been to hijack the hijackers by having a side march with actual stuff in far larger number depriving the attention that is the only seek there?
People : lets deny the issue, sit tight, eat popcorn, rattle abuse at them online, give them and help them get more attention.

 

[Dubious]

I can only guess if some one thought of how fun would it have been to hijack the hijackers by having a side march with actual stuff in far larger number depriving the attention that is the only seek there?

Can you please paraphrase this. I am not sure what you mean

People : lets deny the issue, sit tight, eat popcorn, rattle abuse at them online, give them and help them get more attention.

On multiple threads I have given of examples that could have conveyed their "genuine worry"

Example:

Help in an Edhi center
Help in a woman's hostel
Buy produce for a lonely elderly couple
Feed and clothe the poor
Adopt a student - where you pay the month school fees or yearly
Get a poor widow's daughter married

Which of the above do these marchees do?

 

[Xeson]

Can you please paraphrase this. I am not sure what you mean

I mean, if all those against the agenda of this march (not related to women issues or rights) which are so many people, had gathered and made a march of their own with far bigger number of people with slogans and posters related to women rights that would have been great solution. It would have highlighted right issues as well as taken attention, which is the goal, away from the wrong march.Hitting two birds with one stone but no that takes effort and little brain.

On multiple threads I have given of examples that could have conveyed their "genuine worry"

Exactly! i hope it get into some ears and minds.

 

[Zibago]

Repeating what you said doesnt make it correct!

Now if I give a poor example of a serious issue esp by insulting say your family/ women/ culture/ religion, would you still agree at least the issue is raised?

Lets take an example, if someone raises the issue of rape and goes, for example your sister gets raped- at least the issue is raised?

Or someone raises an issue of alcoholism and says for example xyz's mamu who is an alcoholic = at least issue is raised?

Or someone goes terrorism for example islamic terrorism....at least issue is raised?

NO, when issue is raised with PATHETIC examples...it becomes less of a raised issue and more of an issue itself!


So, you oked the placards that are disturbing?

Coz THAT SERMON is one our society can make do without!

I got less issues with the playcards more issues with the clowns running it
PTM leader Ismat Jehan is turning it into another avenue for anti army propaganda

https://twitter.com/x/status/1236637153687412736

Highlighting - Awareness - Education - Show of intent and will - Attracting focus to an issue

Remember what I said about PTM factor? Yeah

https://twitter.com/x/status/1236637153687412736

Filthy degenerate anti Pakistan scum I knew they would turn it into a political event

 

[Dubious]

I mean, if all those against the agenda of this march (not related to women issues or rights) which are so many people, had gathered and made a march of their own with far bigger number of people with slogans and posters related to women rights that would have been great solution. It would have highlighted right issues as well as taken attention, which is the goal, away from the wrong march.Hitting two birds with one stone but no that takes effort and little brain.

Yes and no.

It would have still been shown as a counter march to counter the aurat march. Western media can be creative!

 

[Jungibaaz]

It's important not to smear or reduce mass-movements down to a few points of contention. I've seen examples of this on this forum and elsewhere. People often react to things before properly understanding underlying issues and nuances. They see a few controversial examples of women's march slogans etc and form entire counter protests based on mischaracterisations. So I broadly agree with OP.

Women's march is much bigger than the few feminist issues that have been raised as points of contention. There are serious issues regarding harassment of women and girls, that ranges from relentless ogling in public places, to outright sexual assault. There are issues of women empowerment in the work force and especially of the literacy rate of women. If we had a female literacy rate that was higher, we'd be more economically developed, our export industry would be stronger and all Pakistanis would be materially better off.

People need to calm down and assess things before reacting. It's easy to misunderstand, mischaracterise and malign entire movements based on a few questionable and wrong examples.

Brave person.

Just be prepared to get insults thrown your way.

I'm literally dealing with name calling, and personal attacks in another thread, and I didn't even necessarily disagree with the guy insulting me.

Just goes to show you, people are getting way too heated over something that won't even matter in a couple of weeks.

I'm dealing with the same sort of reactionary response here too. I don't want to drag that debate here unfairly, so I'll omit details. But I concur with your experience of seeing people getting worked up and reacting before understanding or properly considering the underlying cause for any movement.

It seems in Pakistan, we quickly assume some sort of saazish or other mischaracterisation of the other side in any movement or protest that we disagree with, well before allowing some sort of legitimacy and space of logical assessment of why it is happening.

No one can deny that women are not given their due rights in Pakistan, but problem here is that "Aurat March" may increase their sufferings.

The placards shown in the march, such as Mera Jism Meri Marzi, are so degrading for women. I haven't seen a single placard mentioning real problems faced by women in Pakistan. Has anyone seen "Quran se shadi band karo", "Jaidaad main hamara haq na maro", "talaq ki dhamki de kar apna matlab nikalna band karo", "maikay bhej ke Naan nufqay se inkaar band karo", "Aurat ki marzi ke baghair shadian band karo", "workplaces pe women ko secure mahol provide karo" etc etc.

This march seems to only want to persuade women to dress like western women, stop marrying, get divorce, and live in a live in relationship.

I agree completely. But I have to add, there are always bad eggs and people who take things too far in all movements. Even when, as in this case, the base cases are all valid. The point I'd like to add is that these few feminist slogans which we all see as objectionable should not be cause to disregard the entire movement and to smear/mischaractarise everyone involved, as we've already seen happening.

 

[Crusher]

...............
It seems in Pakistan, we quickly assume some sort of saazish or other mischaracterisation of the other side in any movement or protest that we disagree with, well before allowing some sort of legitimacy and space of logical assessment of why it is happening.

It is not unique to Pakistan only, people all over the world hate "protests" and such BS, they just want to have a smooth life without any disturbances. I don't know why people feel that Pakistanis behave in a unique way, I have interacted with people of all nationalities here in Germany and noticed that the behaviors are pretty much similar to the behaviors in urban areas of Pakistan. Pakistanis grown up in urban areas and cities are not unique in their behaviors compared to anyone else in the world unless they originate from some very tribal primitive social and economic depressive setups.

 

[Jungibaaz]

It is not unique to Pakistan only, people all over the world hate "protests" and such BS, they just want to have a smooth life without any disturbances. I don't know why people feel that Pakistanis behave in a unique way, I have interacted with people of all nationalities here in Germany and noticed that the behaviors are pretty much similar to the behaviors in urban areas of Pakistan. Pakistanis grown up in urban areas and cities are not unique in their behaviors compared to anyone else in the world unless they originate from some very tribal primitive social and economic depressive setups.

Fair enough, I partially agree with that assessment. I think my quoted point needs to be qualified with a different level of comparison. It's not so much that we have a unique intolerance for opinion. But we do draw stringent lines in problematic places, now I am fully descending to making political points and value judgements, but that's fine. Where we place our limits on freedom of speech and expression are problematic, our intolerance of opinion critical of some institutions, of the correct reading of our own history, and certain societal/cultural norms is perhaps more problematic than the equivalent intolerance in say South Korea or the UK.

I'm not saying we need to be like them at all, but one must mark a difference. In the UK, acceptable political opinion is broad and only extreme or almost-objectionably harmful opinion is marginalised. E.g racist attitudes are not given legitimate political space and are abhorred and dismissed. In Pakistan, we're operating on a different end of the spectrum, perfectly acceptable criticism of say societal attitudes towards women can quickly be shut down given a few protests of instances of ultra-feminist ideals that are muddying the waters. Worse than this, in Pakistan there is actual censorship of the media behind the scenes, I know of a few examples where journalists have been pressured indirectly and removed from airing certain criticisms of certain institutions. Although that last comment is not directly relevant here, it points towards differences in level of acceptance of political thought. The examples that I can think of would stir an outrage in the UK where I am or in Germany where you are, but not in Pakistan.