99.99% of the world is wajib-ul-qatal for insulting the Prophet

[warrior_pk]

because even sarcasm has limits and not to mention the so called policy here on sarcastic posts but oh well now we all know where it applies and where it doesnt.

 

[Peregrine]

because even sarcasm has limits and not to mention the so called policy here on sarcastic posts but oh well now we all know where it applies and where it doesnt.

There are no rules and policies for the one's in power, Now you may know why Pakistan never makes any progress, it's the Pakistani mentality(power corrupts).............. if you know what i mean.

 

[Last Hope]

Why do people find it so hard to understand sarcastic posts......

Because we have never seen his posts like this.

 

[warrior_pk]

There are no rules and policies for the one's in power, Now you may know why Pakistan never makes any progress, it's the Pakistani mentality(power corrupts).............. if you know what i mean.

yh i know what u mean brother and isnt that the real reason why we are facing such anarchy and extremism in the first place and i think by now it should be very clear that it is not just the domain of so called religious fanatics.But like always we are just gona swim on the surface rather than finding and addressing the real reasons behind such behaviors on both sides.we are going downhill as a society and that too at an alarming pace.

 

[monitor12345]

When the Holy Prophet was in Makkah in the early days of Islam, he never was angry on people insulting him.
When did our Prophet said to kill people if they insult him. He even forgive people of Ta'if when he had the option of Azab e Allahi on them.

Our HOLY PROPHET ( PEACE BE UPON HIM ) IS THE GREATEST IN THE UNIVERSE , AFTER GOD.
SUPPOSE YOUR MOTHER IS VERY GOOD PERSON. IF SOMEONE BEATS UR MOTHER, AND SHE WANTS TO PARDON THE CRIMINAL, WILL U KEEP QUIET ? IT BECOMES UR RESPONSIBILITY TO PUNISH THE CRIMINAL. IF U DONT PUNISH CRIMINAL, OTHER PEOPLE WILL ALSO BECOME CRIMINALS. (( ONE BAD FISH DESTROYS THE WHOLE LAKE )).

 

[monitor12345]

Mullahs love to use the "What if your mother is insulted" argument, won't you fight back then? Lets use the same...

A father's insult is not just he who curses his father, it is equally insulting if he is not followed or disobeyed - at least in the prevalent culture, in Muslim countries.

By the same count its not just an insult when you swear at the Prophet, it is also insulting when the Prophet is not followed. Who here can say they have ALWAYS followed the Prophet.

Ok the game, set, match boys. Kill everyone. Then shoot yourself.

Mr. Aquil, Even though ur name is Aquil , u r not Aquil. U can't even understand the difference between two words. DISOBEDIENCE AND INSULT.

Mr. Aquil, THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISOBEDIENCE AND INSULT.
Lets use the same example:
If ur mother tells u to do something and u dont do it. IT IS DISOBEDIENCE. It is definitely a CRIME, BUT , THINK, INSTEAD OF OBEYING HER , U START USING ABUSING LANGUAGE, AND ASKS ``WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME OR ORDER ME ``?? . THIS IS INSULT.
HOPE U UNDERSTAND.
BY THE WAY, OUR HOLY PROPHET ( PEACE BE UPON HIM ) IS THE GREATEST OF ALL , AFTER ALLAH. DISOBEDIENCE OF OUR HOLY PROPHET IS DEFINITELY A BIG CRIME, BUT, IF SOMEONE INSULTS OUR HOLY PROPHET ( PEACE BE UPON HIM ) EVEN IN THE SLIGHTEST MANNER, IT CAUSES KUFR, ( HE LOSES HIS EEMAN ) . THIS IS PROVEN FROM THE HOLY QURAN. ( FROM THE AAYATS DIRECTLY ( NAS )
HOPE U UNDERSTAND THE HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISOBEDIENCE AND INSULT.
TAKE CARE.

 

[Mabs]

Calm down Asim. I am also very depressed and inhuman reaction of some of my countrymen have deeply saddened me but there is no reason to lose sanity and logic. Keep your head cool and control your emotions. I am optimistic person by nature so i say good times will come.

As for those people who are celebrating Taseer's murder or justifying his death, may God show them the right path. I am hopeful that his death will not go in vain and people will learn to tolerate each other.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Instead of going hysteric, what we really need is to first educate ourselves about the issues, and then help others understand them as well. You can not fight ignorance with ignorance. Darkness is just absence of light, be that light.

 

[Mabs]

Asim makes a fair point, albeit sarcastically.

This attitude that only me, myself and I can define what is right and wrong is the problem.

As a small example, I have seen people getting beat up in a certain mosque when they did not kiss their hands and raise them to their eyes when Muhammad's (PBUH) name was mentioned, simply because the Imam of the sect had declared anyone not doing so not a true muslim and therefore not welcome in that mosque.

And yet all these people go to Masjid Al-Haram, and there no problem is created when muslims from all over the world say namaz differently in their own ways.

Very good point. Why were you or anyone else was not able to refute that Imam? That's because we do not know jack about our religion. People can say whatever they please, and we have to take it at face value because, we do not know enough to scholastically challenge them. Whenever someone tries to or misuses the religion, instead of running away from it, go towards it. Understand why that person is saying something and on what authority. Once most of us posses the requisite knowledge, people will not be able to make ignorant claims and get away with it.

 

[Mabs]

@ AM

But you would be provoked to react at some point, right? Everyone has a boiling point where they are no longer able to hold themselves back, and give in to their emotions. Wouldn't that happen to you as well, considering that you are a human as well, no matter how passive or calm?

About the funeral deal, a friend of mine SMSed me expressing joy about it, but instead of bashing him, I just told him that, according to a Hadith, we are even asked to pray the funeral prayers of a person who had 99 evils in him, but just 1 good. Also, the prophet himself, prayed the funeral prayers of many Munafaqeen " hypocrites". I was able to convince him that he is at fault, and he accepted it. I was able to do that, because i had the required knowledge to do so. Use the brains and resources that you have at your disposal to educate yourself, and then others. In your own words" let's start playing our roles in the society,lets take control of things instead of just passing the blame, and try to change things for the better".

@ Solomon

We all agree, or at least the majority that procedural changes need to be made in the B law, to include all religions and not just Islam. We also agree upon the fact that, no one under any circumstances should be allowed to act above and beyond the premise of the law. Can we please move on, now?

Having said that, what is your take on the Hate speech law, which is enacted and implemented in many countries across the world? Is it any different from the B law, if so, how?

 

[Solomon2]

We all agree, or at least the majority that procedural changes need to be made in the B law, to include all religions and not just Islam. We also agree upon the fact that, no one under any circumstances should be allowed to act above and beyond the premise of the law. Can we please move on, now?

Umm, no. The reason why is that you haven't committed to taking any initiative.

what is your take on the Hate speech law, which is enacted and implemented in many countries across the world? Is it any different from the B law, if so, how?

I am not an expert here, but my view is that the difference is in both character and enforcement.

We have "hate crimes" laws here in the States, which are a sort of re-expression of property or harassment crimes: you invade someone's property to paint a swastika on his door or you yell "blood, blood, blood" in front of his face repeatedly and you can be charged with a "hate crime". But these are really redundant and would have been covered under the usual property and harassment statutes.

In Israel my understanding is that public acts meant to degrade someone's religion or rude words upsetting his state of worship are offenses, with a maximum penalty of one year in prison. Deliberate vandalism of a place of worship or religious object with the intent to hurt their feelings can get you three years in prison.

Enforcement is by the police. No one in the U.S. or Israel would take it in their heads to try to enforce the laws themselves, or to take out a gun and shoot someone for an offense, and certainly not for defending someone merely accused of an offense.

 

[VCheng]

Very good point. Why were you or anyone else was not able to refute that Imam? That's because we do not know jack about our religion. People can say whatever they please, and we have to take it at face value because, we do not know enough to scholastically challenge them. Whenever someone tries to or misuses the religion, instead of running away from it, go towards it. Understand why that person is saying something and on what authority. Once most of us posses the requisite knowledge, people will not be able to make ignorant claims and get away with it.

I tried my best to stop the fight and to calm down the congregration, but mob mentality is not conducive to any sort of education.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@ AM

But you would be provoked to react at some point, right? Everyone has a boiling point where they are no longer able to hold themselves back, and give in to their emotions. Wouldn't that happen to you as well, considering that you are a human as well, no matter how passive or calm?

There is no need to reach a 'boiling point' - people always have the option to walk away from an individual or ignore him. If someone chooses to listen to something until it makes that individual cross a 'boiling point' then it is the individual's fault, not the fault of the speaker.

Unless you are being physically restrained (in which one could argue physical assault and therefore justify the use of violence) there is absolutely no reason for someone to 'cross the boiling point'.

About the funeral deal, a friend of mine SMSed me expressing joy about it, but instead of bashing him, I just told him that, according to a Hadith, we are even asked to pray the funeral prayers of a person who had 99 evils in him, but just 1 good. Also, the prophet himself, prayed the funeral prayers of many Munafaqeen " hypocrites". I was able to convince him that he is at fault, and he accepted it. I was able to do that, because i had the required knowledge to do so. Use the brains and resources that you have at your disposal to educate yourself, and then others. In your own words" let's start playing our roles in the society,lets take control of things instead of just passing the blame, and try to change things for the better".

That was an excellent effort by you, and indeed we need this kind of effort not just from secularists and liberals, but from conservatives in Pakistan as well.

What must be at the core of every message, whether advocating for a secular State or 'Shariah Law', against Blashphemy laws or for blasphemy laws, against Ahmadi laws or for Ahmadi laws, is a complete and total rejection of violence and use of force.

Unless we can transition to a society that deals with its issues and disagreements peacefully, we will never realize our true potential.

@ Solomon

We all agree, or at least the majority that procedural changes need to be made in the B law, to include all religions and not just Islam. We also agree upon the fact that, no one under any circumstances should be allowed to act above and beyond the premise of the law. Can we please move on, now?

I understand that this was directed at Solomon2, but please allow me to interject and ask you a question I have asked before - if you are in favor of expanding Blasphemy laws to all religions, will you respect Hindus and Hindu deities (Shiva Lingam and everything else) and will you respect Ahmadis, their prophet and their religion, at least in terms of not openly ridiculing them, even if you disagree on a personal level with their faith?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Very good point. Why were you or anyone else was not able to refute that Imam? That's because we do not know jack about our religion. People can say whatever they please, and we have to take it at face value because, we do not know enough to scholastically challenge them. Whenever someone tries to or misuses the religion, instead of running away from it, go towards it. Understand why that person is saying something and on what authority. Once most of us posses the requisite knowledge, people will not be able to make ignorant claims and get away with it.

The fact that people were getting beaten up in the mosque would indicate that at a certain point, even if the Imam was refuted properly, he would likely resort to inciting violence against those refuting him in order to hide the fact that he was wrong.

He'd probably start yelling 'Blasphemy! Blasphemy!' and get you beaten up as well ...

Sorry, but with many of these people advocating and justifying violence in certain cases, direct confrontation can be dangerous, unless done in a secure and neutral environment. The State has to step in and arrest and charge any Iman (that would include the 500 or so scholars justifying Taseer's murder) with incitement of violence and incarcerate them.

At the same time the media, especially TV, can play a role by allowing a secure platform for people to refute these so called Islamic scholars.

 

[AstanoshKhan]

It is a tussle between two extremes! The religious and the Liberal.
Its not about how intolerant Pakistanis are... its about the height of idiocy of how the likes of Taseer and Zardari have become prominent political figures of the establishment. Taseer paid for his miscalculated political risk out of his utter idiocy.

Then the Secular Talibans of the “liberal intelligentsia” are just as an@l retentive and demagogues as the fringes on the Islamic Right. Its their fight but most Pakistanis are getting squeezed in the middle. Pakistanis have an uncanny ability to do nothing when their rights are trampled by their own, or outsiders , that the ilk of Zardari and Taseer have not been hung upside down like Mussolini is outright mind-boggling.

I almost about vomited to hear the FOX news fascists of the House of Neo-conservatism bemoan his loss. One prominent beltway boys fascists had the audacity to sing praises of him saying he (Taseer) sent his children to the US for education, he was pro-American …as if that alone constitutes being Secular, Modern and American... a love affair of Western fascism?

IF ….IF the blogsphere is a measure then judging from comments in various blogs etc it seems not many people will miss him …other than the usual tinpot Zekular populist instruments of the West… the Pakistani Trotskyites !!

Well… we know… now he will rest in peace!

 

[Mabs]

Umm, no. The reason why is that you haven't committed to taking any initiative.

I in fact have, not after the ST incident but long before it. I constantly debate with my friends regarding many socio-political and religious issues. An example of it is how I convinced my friend that ST's funeral prayer should be offered. I didn't have to do that, as I was under no compulsion and it was 3 in the morning, but I still did it. Why? Because I simply can not sit idle while the people over whom I exert some kind of influence are accepting and appreciating something totally flawed. That's all i can do for now, as I do not hold a position, through which I can influence the masses. I and we all can in fact, try to make sure that the people falling in our sphere of influence are well and rightly informed

I am not an expert here, but my view is that the difference is in both character and enforcement.
Enforcement is by the police. No one in the U.S. or Israel would take it in their heads to try to enforce the laws themselves, or to take out a gun and shoot someone for an offense, and certainly not for defending someone merely accused of an offense.

Neither am I, but my vague guess is that while laws can be universal and can easily be adapted from one environment to another, their application is not. Every country and nation has its own dynamics, characteristics and social sensitivities which need to be taken into consideration before concluding that what might be workable in the US, will also have the same beneficial results in Pakistan, or any country for that matter. This in fact, is a part of the problem where we tend to see others through our own cultural prism, and expect that the subject country and its people think, feel and behave just the way we do. A good example of this are the tales of the American pilots, who were involved in the flood relief operations. They experienced somethings, which if done in the US, would have been considered awkward, to say the least.

About the law being supreme and unbendable, I couldn't agree with you more. Regardless of what the crime is, it is the responsibility of the state to prosecute the accused, and people should have no role in it except to register their grievances in the court of law.