8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[The SC]

I think PN is not confident that Chinese Subs are as good as German Type 216 / Type-214 or Spanish S-80 class or even its Agosta 90's AIP technology. It is just a choice out of compulsion. It prefers Quality over Quantity.

China has historic problems with AIP technology and Submarines construction, especially Weapon integration need further development....PN order of 6 Chinese S20, or the upgraded S26 with AIP was sufficient to fill numbers gap.

I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Now that the fear of aggressive posturing by Pakistani forces (at peast covertly) has dissipated

Elaborate please.

 

[araz]

Any involvement that PA has will either be of defensive nature with activities strictly inside the Saudi territory. Even if PA ventures into Yemen it will be kept as a private venture and strictly denied in case of news leaking out. This is my own thinking so dont go around quoting me please.
Araz

 

[Bossman]

European subs are ex Greek 214s which will be returned to Germany and then resold to Pakistan. It's part of the Greek bailout package.

 

[Asian.Century]

European subs are ex Greek 214s which will be returned to Germany and then resold to Pakistan. It's part of the Greek bailout package.

Where did u get this info ?

I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.

If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.

If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!

Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.

The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.

Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.

I appreciate your optimism for Chinese tech, which in turn at some levels has Russian signatures. But I doubt Chinese Navy ever used Western Subs, like the French Agostas, Scorpenes, Spanish, US or the German Subs. On the other hand PN has always used Western Subs, extensive experience for past 40+ years. This is the first time ever Pakistan will use Chinese Subs and it happens to be the biggest military deal in Chinese history, second only to JF17s.

The one PN is getting are the Type 041 which are all diesel powered and not electric propulsion system, though Nuclear powered are the best not the electric propulsion system, whereas diesel ones are reliable and economical to run.

Modern non-nuclear submarines are potentially stealthier than nuclear submarine, nevertheless. AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling propulsion on the surface. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.

Last I check Chinese most modern AIP is not comparable to the one on the PN's Agosta 90s, since China is still purchasing Russian Submarines with AIP, enough evidence to suggest Chinese AIP technology in initial maturity stage and Chinese AIP technology similar to Russians is relatively very new. Do you know about western fuel cell AIP?

Popping up a submarine in the middle of Atlantic is a good feat, but weapon integration with China still in SLBM mode, and even initial maturity phases of SLCM, does not gives confidence as yet, they are not battle tested, no exercises show these tests as of yet.

No doubt China is offering the best Submarines to Pakistan, but as Pakistani or Chinese will need to be realistic on it as well, on where we actually stand.

 

[The SC]

Where did u get this info ?




I appreciate your optimism for Chinese tech, which in turn at some levels has Russian signatures. But I doubt Chinese Navy ever used Western Subs, like the French Agostas, Scorpenes, Spanish, US or the German Subs. On the other hand PN has always used Western Subs, extensive experience for past 40+ years. This is the first time ever Pakistan will use Chinese Subs and it happens to be the biggest military deal in Chinese history, second only to JF17s.

The one PN is getting are the Type 041 which are all diesel powered and not electric propulsion system, though Nuclear powered are the best not the electric propulsion system, whereas diesel ones are reliable and economical to run.

Modern non-nuclear submarines are potentially stealthier than nuclear submarine, nevertheless. AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling propulsion on the surface. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.

Last I check Chinese most modern AIP is not comparable to the one on the PN's Agosta 90s, since China is still purchasing Russian Submarines with AIP, enough evidence to suggest Chinese AIP technology in initial maturity stage and Chinese AIP technology similar to Russians is relatively very new.

Popping up a submarine in the middle of Atlantic is a good feat, but weapon integration with China still in SLBM mode, and even initial maturity phases of SLCM, does not gives confidence as yet, they are not battle tested, no exercises show these tests as of yet.

No doubt China is offering the best Submarines to Pakistan, but as Pakistani or Chinese will need to be realistic on it as well, on where we actually stand.

You are right on most points, yet you should not underestimate the input of the Pakistani acquired know-how of western submarine technologies and its integration into these submarines., since they will be Pakistani specifics.
What Russian AIP are you talking about?

 

[Zarvan]

Can any one tell which western used submarines we are interested in ????

 

[abbasalai]

good news

 

[Usama78]

The good thing is, we finally care enough about the Navy too.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

1. I have the following inkling to post. I know that the PN has been looking at 6 subs from China. The reasons as always are no other source, ease of integration of specific requirements and armament, soft loans and an unmatched price. PN is also aware of the dire need to replace the Augusta 70s which may have been upgraded but are now largely irrelevant in the subcontinental theatre. It has been searching far and wide for a possible second hand buy either from the french who are clearly not wanting to get involved for fear of losing the lucrative aviation deal. The Greek U214s may be an option if they become available as the Greeks clearly cannot keep them. I however don't think the Germans will play ball with us due to internal political problems and availability of suitable platforms. There is therefore talk of Turkish subs as well which is an indirect way of acquiring the same/ similar technology without breaking the bank.

The last aspect which does not make sense to me is where is all the money coming from, the answer to which may well be a joint Saudi effort to develop and train its Navy. Now that the fear of aggressive posturing by Pakistani forces (at least covertly) has dissipated is it this factor which is ruling the sudden expansion of the naval armada of Pakistan. The possibility of buying New F22, ATRs, FACs and now the sub deal in conjunction with the HQ 9/16 deal points to a helpful hand rather than Pakistan's own meagre resources.
Araz

This is what I have been Advocating since the last few pages regarding the Greek Subs but @Penguin stated that those are going to join the Greek Navy and are not available. Now PN has Turkey and South Korea which can collaborate in developing the U-214's. Last year during IDEAS 2014 there were reports that South Korea was interested in establishing manufacturing of naval equipment as well as cooperation in regards to aviation and a similar cooperation was also inked with Turkey.

ATR aircraft that PN uses are the ATR-72-500 series which can be upgraded to 600 series like the Turkish Navy did. PN would be purchasing more used ATR-72-500 and then they would be upgraded.

Where did u get this info ?




I appreciate your optimism for Chinese tech, which in turn at some levels has Russian signatures. But I doubt Chinese Navy ever used Western Subs, like the French Agostas, Scorpenes, Spanish, US or the German Subs. On the other hand PN has always used Western Subs, extensive experience for past 40+ years. This is the first time ever Pakistan will use Chinese Subs and it happens to be the biggest military deal in Chinese history, second only to JF17s.

The one PN is getting are the Type 041 which are all diesel powered and not electric propulsion system, though Nuclear powered are the best not the electric propulsion system, whereas diesel ones are reliable and economical to run.

Modern non-nuclear submarines are potentially stealthier than nuclear submarine, nevertheless. AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling propulsion on the surface. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.

Last I check Chinese most modern AIP is not comparable to the one on the PN's Agosta 90s, since China is still purchasing Russian Submarines with AIP, enough evidence to suggest Chinese AIP technology in initial maturity stage and Chinese AIP technology similar to Russians is relatively very new. Do you know about western fuel cell AIP?

Popping up a submarine in the middle of Atlantic is a good feat, but weapon integration with China still in SLBM mode, and even initial maturity phases of SLCM, does not gives confidence as yet, they are not battle tested, no exercises show these tests as of yet.

No doubt China is offering the best Submarines to Pakistan, but as Pakistani or Chinese will need to be realistic on it as well, on where we actually stand.

The Diesel engine is a German Engine most probably similar to the U212's. So it could be possible that the U212's could be heading to PN.

European subs are ex Greek 214s which will be returned to Germany and then resold to Pakistan. It's part of the Greek bailout package.

There was a documentary regarding the U212's rusting in the Greek Docks and the bail out for these Docks was the Costa Concordia being sent there to atleast give them some work so that they are able to pay the workers who were waiting for their salaries.

There is no indication that Germany would be repurchasing or these be sent to Pakistan however the Turkish Navy was interested but the Greeks refused to give them.

Type 214 submarine sale will be used to pay the Greek debt

 

[Manindra]

I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.

@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels

May be they run on water

 

[Manindra]

May be they run on water

Lol

 

[araz]

I somehow doubt the bit of news about second hand subs. The fact that the Chinese order has gone up from 6 to 8 means that these efforts have not borne fruit and PN has finally settled on the Chi option. It makes sense to me to have subs sourced. from One vendor only . We will also have access to any developments that the Chinese make and so the later lot may well be slightly more developed than the former. The development of in house facilities would be a big plus to the deal.
Araz

 

[Zarvan]

I somehow doubt the bit of news about second hand subs. The fact that the Chinese order has gone up from 6 to 8 means that these efforts have not borne fruit and PN has finally settled on the Chi option. It makes sense to me to have subs sourced. from One vendor only . We will also have access to any developments that the Chinese make and so the later lot may well be slightly more developed than the former. The development of in house facilities would be a big plus to the deal.
Araz

Sir that is not just news that is what Navy Guys have told our NA Defence comittiee