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8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

I think the SSBN like the size of the Type 094 is quite suitable for Pakistan.

Even the next gen SSBN for the USA/Russia/China will all be based on 16 silo, not the 24 silo Cold War monster like the Ohio class.

So I guess the 12 silo SSBN like the Type 094 is quite affordable for Pakistan to operate and to maintain.

any idea of the cost of 093 and 094?

According to news we are going for a new bigger version not smaller version

if going by your news, than yuan already is at 3600 tons, larger than that, and we are talking closer to 4000t soryu class, they are the largest conventional subs on the high seas. IMO the costs, the geopolitics wont allow us to go for something like that. 8 of these giants will seal the game for PN.
 
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What used subs does Germany of France have?

I don't know, it was in news people are assuming that Germany can provide used U-209s and France have refused to sell any sub new or used to Pakistan.
 
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any idea of the cost of 093 and 094?



if going by your news, than yuan already is at 3600 tons, larger than that, and we are talking closer to 4000t soryu class, they are the largest conventional subs on the high seas. IMO the costs, the geopolitics wont allow us to go for something like that. 8 of these giants will seal the game for PN.
Sir we are going for bigger version may be new ones known as S-26 and S-30
 
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@araz
Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.

A nuclear submarine can hide anywhere in the ocean for very long periods of time, while an AIP (best of) can manage hiding (submerged) for a maximum of 18 days (world record held by Swedish submarines).
The thing is that the new nuclear submarines are all electric propulsion too. So the step for Pakistan is closer if it chooses to jump to nuclear submarines, it is a matter of replacing the batteries and fuel cells by a miniaturized nuclear reactor.
This can be easily set on the Qing class 032, and maybe some variants of 041 Qing class with some 6000t plus displacement.
 
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A nuclear submarine can hide anywhere in the ocean for very long periods of time, while an AIP (best of) can manage hiding (submerged) for a maximum of 18 days (world record held by Swedish submarines).
The thing is that the new nuclear submarines are all electric propulsion too. So the step for Pakistan is closer if it chooses to jump to nuclear submarines, it is a matter of replacing the batteries and fuel cells by a miniaturized nuclear reactor.
This can be easily set on the Qing class 032, and maybe some variants of 041 Qing class with some 6000t plus displacement.
This could be possible. Now we wait !!
 
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Think about the span of time for the acquisitions. If it is 10 years, than it sums up to less than a billion$ a year... for 5 years its 2 billion $ a year, both options are affordable for Pakistan, add the fact of soft loans and you can see that it is more than affordable, and we are talking about 10 billion $ deals not 7 or 8...



In the past it Has been Reported that Pakistan is getting 039 class "Songs" or 041 class Yuan class From china But now reports emerge that it is the latest variant of 041 class named "QING" class submarines for which a deal was inked for 6.

The first Qing class built for Chinese Navy was launched last year and will be going through the sea trial this month 6/2011 which will include the firing of CJ-10K LACms with a range of 1,500 KM.


The deal was signed between Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) and Pakistani Government in April 2011 is for 6 Qing class submarine, These submarines will be double hulled with a submerged displacement of 3,600 tons. It will be equipped with the new Stirling-cycle AIP and will be able to carry upto 3 CJ-10K which could carry nuclear warheds, Other features include hull retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The AIP and the propulsion systems will be all electric and not the diesal electric propulsion system making the submarines very quiet. This propulsion system has already been tested on a number of heavier Chinese submarines.
Pakistan Navy To Get 6 QING Class Submarines And 2 Typ 054A FFGs From China - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


:bad::argh::blah::D
Only Asian defence news got such technology :lol:
 
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We always talk about affordability and availability of funds. One factor that we miss out on is how do we achieve affordability?

Affordability has two major requirements (1) Low initial cost, (2) Low maintenance costs. If these are attained then the Operational cost is also low. It is possible to reduce these if they are mass produced (a larger quantity). The operational cost can change due to other reasons like inflation etc.

Looking at Pakistan Navy today they are maintaining different equipment in small numbers hence all these add up to a higher operational costs even though they fulfill the requirements mentioned above. Now if these are to be standardized they would definitely reduce the costs drastically. However this might seem to increase the costs in the short term but would have lower cost at a long term period.

Pakistan Navy requires more funds (agreed) for attaining a standard fleet. Now how are they going to work on this plan? The answer I'm giving is of AM Noor Khan,
"Once it is known that we have to be number one then it is easy to plan the course"

The requirements of PN might not be more than $ 3 billion per year for this kind of accusations.
This would include Corvettes, Frigates, Submarines, airborne assets etc.

Do you think it is not possible for Govt. of Pakistan to arrange $ 3 bln for P.N.?



Pakistan can not purchase these directly from China or any other country as per international law. However leasing can be done, India has been doing this through Russia for some time now.

There is also another way that is to enter into a joint venture in an existing or future nuclear submarine project.



Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.[/QUOTE]
Bhai.
3 billion each year for how long? On the one hand we are running to WB & IMF for economic bailout and then you talk of spending 3 billion a year to acquire stuff which may never in its whole life sèe action and will certainly be of no good to the hungry populace. How can you justify this?
Secondly we run a deficit economy.There maybe a 200 billion Rs black economy but the government cannot balance its accounts. There is a huge rich poor divide which is increasing by the day if economists are to be believed and one of the major cause of crimes in the major cities. The army may well act but if people are poor and without jobs crimes will increase.Even if you had 3. Billion where should they go? I for one would be all for increasing our production base and acquiring newer skills and capabilities but spending that much on just Naval acquisition seems preposterous.
Thirdly if you spend 3 billion what happens to all the other developmental project for the other arms of defence. These are all things that need to be thought out. Finally 3 billion per yr for 10 yrs is 30 billion over 5 yrs is 15 billion. Are really proposing that much defence out lay just for the navy. Because if you are Pakistan will end up becoming bankrupt not that we are far away from that in any case.
Araz
 
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We always talk about affordability and availability of funds. One factor that we miss out on is how do we achieve affordability?

Affordability has two major requirements (1) Low initial cost, (2) Low maintenance costs. If these are attained then the Operational cost is also low. It is possible to reduce these if they are mass produced (a larger quantity). The operational cost can change due to other reasons like inflation etc.

Looking at Pakistan Navy today they are maintaining different equipment in small numbers hence all these add up to a higher operational costs even though they fulfill the requirements mentioned above. Now if these are to be standardized they would definitely reduce the costs drastically. However this might seem to increase the costs in the short term but would have lower cost at a long term period.

Pakistan Navy requires more funds (agreed) for attaining a standard fleet. Now how are they going to work on this plan? The answer I'm giving is of AM Noor Khan,
"Once it is known that we have to be number one then it is easy to plan the course"

The requirements of PN might not be more than $ 3 billion per year for this kind of accusations.
This would include Corvettes, Frigates, Submarines, airborne assets etc.

Do you think it is not possible for Govt. of Pakistan to arrange $ 3 bln for P.N.?



Pakistan can not purchase these directly from China or any other country as per international law. However leasing can be done, India has been doing this through Russia for some time now.

There is also another way that is to enter into a joint venture in an existing or future nuclear submarine project.



Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.
Bhai.
3 billion each year for how long? On the one hand we are running to WB & IMF for economic bailout and then you talk of spending 3 billion a year to acquire stuff which may never in its whole life sèe action and will certainly be of no good to the hungry populace. How can you justify this?
Secondly we run a deficit economy.There maybe a 200 billion Rs black economy but the government cannot balance its accounts. There is a huge rich poor divide which is increasing by the day if economists are to be believed and one of the major cause of crimes in the major cities. The army may well act but if people are poor and without jobs crimes will increase.Even if you had 3. Billion where should they go? I for one would be all for increasing our production base and acquiring newer skills and capabilities but spending that much on just Naval acquisition seems preposterous.
Thirdly if you spend 3 billion what happens to all the other developmental project for the other arms of defence. These are all things that need to be thought out. Finally 3 billion per yr for 10 yrs is 30 billion over 5 yrs is 15 billion. Are really proposing that much defence out lay just for the navy. Because if you are Pakistan will end up becoming bankrupt not that we are far away from that in any case.
Araz

Well first of all Pakistan has a $ 5 billion procurement budget per year. For the past 20 years the stuff that was added to the PN new was the F-22P and Attack crafts the rest was given to other forces so that they could be brought up to strength.

Before the Budget 2015-16 it is the right time for PN to find the surplus or underutilized funds for her requirements. There are many ways in which deals can be finalized pay initial and then pay the remaining on installments, these installments may vary with the time or may start upon the delivery hence giving enough time to arrange adequate amounts. Pls go through the Egypt Rafale deal.

Why are we running to the IMF and World Bank for bailout?
I am not the right person to answer this question but with my limited ability can only say that it is a way of saying to the world that we are poor and can not afford to secure the population. The IMF & WB loan is being paid by more loan so it is practically not being used to solve the problem of population.

Deficit Economy
What can one say about it. This is how modern economics work the rich become richer and the poor become poorer far away from what this countries constitution states. The current Debt of USA is increase by the second and bail out has been given though China.

China though a Communist state is able to bail out Capitalist country just because the disparity between the rich and poor is not their.

Though in my personal opinion both Capitalism and Communism are two extremes, there is a much better option that is not too difficult to adopt for Pakistan which is to follow the Islamic way of economics which is much more balanced.

At the end it all ends with what is necessary has to be done even if it kills you.
 
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I don't know, it was in news people are assuming that Germany can provide used U-209s and France have refused to sell any sub new or used to Pakistan.
Germany never operate Type 209
 
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Bhai.
3 billion each year for how long? On the one hand we are running to WB & IMF for economic bailout and then you talk of spending 3 billion a year to acquire stuff which may never in its whole life sèe action and will certainly be of no good to the hungry populace. How can you justify this?
Secondly we run a deficit economy.There maybe a 200 billion Rs black economy but the government cannot balance its accounts. There is a huge rich poor divide which is increasing by the day if economists are to be believed and one of the major cause of crimes in the major cities. The army may well act but if people are poor and without jobs crimes will increase.Even if you had 3. Billion where should they go? I for one would be all for increasing our production base and acquiring newer skills and capabilities but spending that much on just Naval acquisition seems preposterous.
Thirdly if you spend 3 billion what happens to all the other developmental project for the other arms of defence. These are all things that need to be thought out. Finally 3 billion per yr for 10 yrs is 30 billion over 5 yrs is 15 billion. Are really proposing that much defence out lay just for the navy. Because if you are Pakistan will end up becoming bankrupt not that we are far away from that in any case.
Araz

Well first of all Pakistan has a $ 5 billion procurement budget per year. For the past 20 years the stuff that was added to the PN new was the F-22P and Attack crafts the rest was given to other forces so that they could be brought up to strength.

Before the Budget 2015-16 it is the right time for PN to find the surplus or underutilized funds for her requirements. There are many ways in which deals can be finalized pay initial and then pay the remaining on installments, these installments may vary with the time or may start upon the delivery hence giving enough time to arrange adequate amounts. Pls go through the Egypt Rafale deal.

Why are we running to the IMF and World Bank for bailout?
I am not the right person to answer this question but with my limited ability can only say that it is a way of saying to the world that we are poor and can not afford to secure the population. The IMF & WB loan is being paid by more loan so it is practically not being used to solve the problem of population.

Deficit Economy
What can one say about it. This is how modern economics work the rich become richer and the poor become poorer far away from what this countries constitution states. The current Debt of USA is increase by the second and bail out has been given though China.

China though a Communist state is able to bail out Capitalist country just because the disparity between the rich and poor is not their.

Though in my personal opinion both Capitalism and Communism are two extremes, there is a much better option that is not too difficult to adopt for Pakistan which is to follow the Islamic way of economics which is much more balanced.

At the end it all ends with what is necessary has to be done even if it kills you.[/QUOTE]
AOA
Procurement budget to my mind does not run this way. For instance do you think that the F16s which we secured from US are paid for. Or the excess of F16s from Jordan or the F22ps or even the bl.2 JFT. Where is the money for that coming from if not from the procurement budget? So the procuremeñt budget is not a static amount of money which is paid off in chunks but utilized to pay for stuff you have bought.
The US situation and its debt is something which is tantamount to bullying of the highest order. The Chinese have bought US bonds worth trillions if not billions to safeguard their own reserves and also other strategic reasons. To compare US or even UK position to that of Pakistan is very naive. Pakistan just does not have the same clout as these countries and will never have . Therefore the Pakistani position would be one of austerity and working within its limits and if it bòrrows, to use money for projects which yield resources or money in turn.
I fully understand the need but you need to understand my point of view in that this money which we are borrowing will have to be paid back with interest (howsoever small) and if your resources are limited then your troubles will compound subsequently. However if you are getting money from S.t elsewhere for services to be rendered it needs the nation to be clear in its mind that these are services which we agree to carry out and we as a nation are prepared to face the consequences whatever they may be and not whine like a bleeting goat about how war on terror has harmed us in so many ways that are worse than if we had decided to not participate. I am using WOT as an example and will not enter into a debate on the subject.
AOA this is probably my last post on the matter. It is clear to me that you and I are looking at the situation from diametrically opposite directions while not actually disagreeing to the need or the utility of the buy itself. I suspect it will be a reiteration of our respected points of view and I hate going round and round in circles. So unless something in your post requires an answer I will respectfully bow out of this debate.
araz
 
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Well first of all Pakistan has a $ 5 billion procurement budget per year. For the past 20 years the stuff that was added to the PN new was the F-22P and Attack crafts the rest was given to other forces so that they could be brought up to strength.

Before the Budget 2015-16 it is the right time for PN to find the surplus or underutilized funds for her requirements. There are many ways in which deals can be finalized pay initial and then pay the remaining on installments, these installments may vary with the time or may start upon the delivery hence giving enough time to arrange adequate amounts. Pls go through the Egypt Rafale deal.

Why are we running to the IMF and World Bank for bailout?
I am not the right person to answer this question but with my limited ability can only say that it is a way of saying to the world that we are poor and can not afford to secure the population. The IMF & WB loan is being paid by more loan so it is practically not being used to solve the problem of population.

Deficit Economy
What can one say about it. This is how modern economics work the rich become richer and the poor become poorer far away from what this countries constitution states. The current Debt of USA is increase by the second and bail out has been given though China.

China though a Communist state is able to bail out Capitalist country just because the disparity between the rich and poor is not their.

Though in my personal opinion both Capitalism and Communism are two extremes, there is a much better option that is not too difficult to adopt for Pakistan which is to follow the Islamic way of economics which is much more balanced.

At the end it all ends with what is necessary has to be done even if it kills you.
AOA
Procurement budget to my mind does not run this way. For instance do you think that the F16s which we secured from US are paid for. Or the excess of F16s from Jordan or the F22ps or even the bl.2 JFT. Where is the money for that coming from if not from the procurement budget? So the procuremeñt budget is not a static amount of money which is paid off in chunks but utilized to pay for stuff you have bought.
The US situation and its debt is something which is tantamount to bullying of the highest order. The Chinese have bought US bonds worth trillions if not billions to safeguard their own reserves and also other strategic reasons. To compare US or even UK position to that of Pakistan is very naive. Pakistan just does not have the same clout as these countries and will never have . Therefore the Pakistani position would be one of austerity and working within its limits and if it bòrrows, to use money for projects which yield resources or money in turn.
I fully understand the need but you need to understand my point of view in that this money which we are borrowing will have to be paid back with interest (howsoever small) and if your resources are limited then your troubles will compound subsequently. However if you are getting money from S.t elsewhere for services to be rendered it needs the nation to be clear in its mind that these are services which we agree to carry out and we as a nation are prepared to face the consequences whatever they may be and not whine like a bleeting goat about how war on terror has harmed us in so many ways that are worse than if we had decided to not participate. I am using WOT as an example and will not enter into a debate on the subject.
AOA this is probably my last post on the matter. It is clear to me that you and I are looking at the situation from diametrically opposite directions while not actually disagreeing to the need or the utility of the buy itself. I suspect it will be a reiteration of our respected points of view and I hate going round and round in circles. So unless something in your post requires an answer I will respectfully bow out of this debate.
araz[/QUOTE]

As far as your point regarding knowledge and accountability of funds is concerned is absolutely correct, along with the knowledge that what agreements are being done on our account.

We both agree to the present requirements and accusations.
 
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@araz : We do have lots of steel made in Pakistan. Generally, people are thinking Chinese Subs are equal or lesser to Agosta 90s, if not better. We do not know the AIP technology used in S-20s and whether they will be on S-20 / 039s. S-20s / 039s are small submarines. That is why, due to lack of knowledge, we are not fed complete information. Lets hope the Type 041, latest ones are the most modern PN gets, with AIP, and SLCM system at the bare minimum to have any big impact.
Hi.
If you are aware of any plants currently running and manufacturing specialised steel and could provide tb5e Information I would be obliged.
Regards
Araz.

Pakistan has the money, this isn't Zardari era. Government revenues have increased by billions of dollars since PM Nawaz Sharif has taken place. If there wasn't money in place these talks wouldn't be happening.
Give me some figures which I can believe.
Araz
 
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