70 years house ownership recently expires for some old houses in Shanghai, houses will be demolished

[beijingwalker]

That's what I was saying. If after 70 years a building is eligible to be demolished...but the people in it apparently will be compensated for current value ...somebody has to pay for the construction of the new building. Does the city ultimately foot the construction bill since the current owners are off the hook. If so the more buildings they put up the greater the eventual liability.

Since the land is owned by the government, the government pays. Your land is owned by you, so you pay.

 

[Menthol]

You still believe that after 70 years living in in house you will be kicked out by the government? just so so dumb, read the article again, and in China if you are relocated, the value of the new house should be the more or at leas the same as your old house, otherwise the owner of the old house will be compensated with extra houses or cash of the same value, that's why people in China dream about one day their houses will be demolished and they are relocated, cause that will be a once in a life time to rip off the government, do you know what "nail houses" mean? You still live in your delusion about China, if you really like to know about China, pay a visit, that will open your delusional mind.


This is exactly what happens to US suburbs, and US cities are all dead. It's ok for you to enjoy paying that rip off property tax in US, and we are ok with not paying it.

Lol

Exactly like the case of my aunty.

She says like winning a jackpot, that her house is going to be demolished.

 

[Mista]

That's what I was saying. If after 70 years a building is eligible to be demolished...but the people in it apparently will be compensated for current value ...somebody has to pay for the construction of the new building. Does the city ultimately foot the construction bill since the current owners are off the hook. If so the more buildings they put up the greater the eventual liability.

No way it's going to be free lol.

1) Cost. It's going to be a huge, huge additional fiscal burden never undertaken by any other government. If they can rack up huge debt when they are making off money from land sales (cash inflow), you think they can do a full compensation (cash outflow) in the future? Especially when China will be shrinking demographically in the coming decades where there might be more homes than people?

2) Inequality. Say if some tycoon owns 10 luxury apartments in downtown Shanghai, he can pass them down to his descendants in perpetuity? And with appreciating home prices, taxpayers have to pay his descendants a full CMV compensation of 10 luxury housing in downtown Shanghai every 70 years? His descendants can just collect rent from the new luxury home forked out by taxpayers? Meanwhile the poor and their descendants will be condemned with a much smaller compensation (or even no compensation at all), just because their ancestors did not buy a luxury apartment at low prices in the 1990s?
Effectively it will be a large systemic transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, and it will be a recipe for disaster.

Any compensation at CMV currently is more like the exception than the norm. The vast majority of housing in China were built fairly recently, so they only have to tackle the problem in a few more decades. There is still a lot of ambiguity.

Their state media (Google Translate):

Many people worry that the property right of a house is only 70 years, so after 70 years, the house will not belong to them? The newly passed "Civil Code" mentions: "The payment or reduction of renewal fees shall be handled in accordance with the provisions of laws and administrative regulations. "So everyone can be clear that automatic renewal is not the same as free renewal.

If you want to continue to retain the right to use the land and continue to live on this land, then you need to pay a certain fee according to local policies and regulations. So, how much do house buyers need to submit? Since the vast majority of land use rights for residential construction have not yet expired, there is no clear statement on the issue of renewal fees.

In the transfer of state-owned construction land use rights, the transfer period is different, and the fees that land users need to pay are also different.

Therefore, before the relevant policies are clarified, it is recommended that everyone pay attention to the issue of the term of the land use right in the process of buying and selling houses, so as not to let yourself buy at a loss.

58同城：70年房屋产权到期后，你的房子还是你的房子吗？

进入3月份,楼市迎来传统的“金三银四”销售旺季,许多房企趁此升级购房优惠举措,希望带动自己的销量增长。值得注意的是,房屋的土地使用权并不是从购房者签合同买房的那一刻开始算起,而是从开发商向国家申请拿到土地的那一刻开始计算。

cn.chinadaily.com.cn

I think they also know it's not possible to give free compensation for everyone, but clarifying it now will probably shake market's confidence and affect prices.

In Singapore, we also have 99-year leases. And the official stance is, yes, the value will go to zero after 99 years. That's how you 'close the loop' and recycle land for future generations. Might not be popular, but necessary.

 

[beijingwalker]

No way it's going to be free lol.

1) Cost. It's going to be a huge, huge additional fiscal burden never undertaken by any other government. If they can rack up huge debt when they are making off money from land sales (cash inflow), you think they can do a full compensation (cash outflow) in the future? Especially when China will be shrinking demographically in the coming decades where there might be more homes than people?

2) Inequality. Say if some tycoon owns 10 luxury apartments in downtown Shanghai, he can pass them down to his descendants in perpetuity? And with appreciating home prices, taxpayers have to pay his descendants a full CMV compensation of 10 luxury housing in downtown Shanghai every 70 years? His descendants can just collect rent from the new luxury home forked out by taxpayers? Meanwhile the poor and their descendants will be condemned with a much smaller compensation (or even no compensation at all), just because their ancestors did not buy a luxury apartment at low prices in the 1990s?
Effectively it will be a large systemic transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, and it will be a recipe for disaster.

Any compensation at CMV currently is more like the exception than the norm. The vast majority of housing in China were built fairly recently, so they only have to tackle the problem in a few more decades. There is still a lot of ambiguity.

Their state media (Google Translate):

58同城：70年房屋产权到期后，你的房子还是你的房子吗？

进入3月份,楼市迎来传统的“金三银四”销售旺季,许多房企趁此升级购房优惠举措,希望带动自己的销量增长。值得注意的是,房屋的土地使用权并不是从购房者签合同买房的那一刻开始算起,而是从开发商向国家申请拿到土地的那一刻开始计算。

cn.chinadaily.com.cn

I think they also know it's not possible to give free compensation for everyone, but clarifying it now will probably shake market's confidence and affect prices.

In Singapore, we also have 99-year leases. And the official stance is, yes, the value will go to zero after 99 years. That's how you 'close the loop' and recycle land for future generations. Might not be popular, but necessary.

So far all the houses that reached 70 years time have been freely renewed everywhere in China, can you find one single case which wasn't?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Say if some tycoon owns 10 luxury apartments in downtown Shanghai, he can pass them down to his descendants in perpetuity? And with appreciating home prices, taxpayers have to pay his descendants a full CMV compensation of 10 luxury housing in downtown Shanghai every 70 years?

Good point! So if I was rich and upgraded my unit with insane gold amenities I guess my descendants will be fine as the government will compensate for the fair amount. LOL!

 

[beijingwalker]

Good point! So if I was rich and upgraded my unit with insane gold amenities I guess my descendants will be fine as the government will compensate for the fair amount. LOL!

Who says the government will pay for your interior decoration? are you trying hard to be dumb?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Who says the government will pay for your interior decoration? are you trying hard to be dumb?

Ok so the only thing they are paying for is the value of a stock bare unit...no improvements made by the owner (like adding improved floors or windows) is taken into consideration. That's what Mista and I were talking about if some owner spent large amounts to improve the unit.

We are not talking about simply putting a gold vase on a table.

 

[beijingwalker]

Ok so the only thing they are paying for is the value of a stock bare unit...no improvements made by the owner (like adding improved floors or windows) is taken into consideration. That's what Mista and I were talking about if some owner spent large amounts to improve the unit.

You think Chinese don't decorate their houses, so dumb, and what decoration can last for 70 years? if you have a brain, use it.

 

[nang2]

In US, there is also housing Association fees. Which is also a form of tax.

No it isn't. Tax is the money that is paid to the government. Housing Association is not a part of the government.

The Chinese govt's revenue comes mainly from the profits of state-owned enterprises. It does not rely much on taxes.

Moreover, the Chinese govt favors taxing large corporations and rarely taxes individuals and small companies.

Actually Chinese government's revenue is mostly from value-added tax, which is a form of indirect tax that I prefer. US used to prohibit the federal government to collect direct tax (well, not really prohibit but made it very hard to do). It was changed in 1913. In my view, a fatal change to American republic.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

You think Chinese don't decorate their houses, so dumb, and what decoration can last for 70 years? if you have a brain, use it.

LOL! Again with the schizophrenia. You are the one shooting this back when we mentioned improvements:

Who says the government will pay for your interior decoration? are you trying hard to be dumb?

We are just wondering (Yes/No) if somebody put in some interior improvement like expensive custom Italian marble floors with say gold inlays if that would be included in the compensation.

We aren't talking about some picture on a wall or vase on a table that can be easily removed.

 

[beijingwalker]

LOL! Again with the schizophrenia. You are the one shooting this back when we mentioned improvements:

We are just wondering (Yes/No) if somebody put in some interior improvement like expensive custom Italian marble floors with say gold inlays if that would be included in the compensation.

We aren't talking about some picture on a wall or vase on a table that can be easily removed.

Chinese people splurge big money on their house decoration, and they know the decoration can't last for over 70 years, you are just trying to troll here bringing stupid ideas here and there.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

We are just wondering (Yes/No) if somebody put in some interior improvement like expensive custom Italian marble floors with say gold inlays if that would be included in the compensation.

Chinese people splurge big money on their house decoration,

I guess answering with just a yes/no is beyond your abilities.

and they know the decoration can't last for over 70 years,

Why are you specifically focusing on decorations needing to be 70 years???

People's tastes can change..even in say the 60th year and they could do something...and the same rules apply.

you are just trying to troll

Hmm...looking at the below post from you early in this thread..

Chinese own their houses more than Americans. ownership in China is more like true ownership, you don't pay taxes for something you truly own.

 

[letsrock]

well no one really "owns" a house in either usa or china. Owns in the sense as if you dont "owe" anything to anyone on what you own.

Property taxes in us are anywhere between 1-2plus percent and adjusted everyyear (usually upwards). So you play almost the entire value of your house in 50 years or so.

I get that now owing property taxes in china is a "perk". but its only half a perk as you dont enjoy the "permanency" of ownership as in usa if you are willing to pay the taxes.

Chinese people splurge big money on their house decoration, and they know the decoration can't last for over 70 years, you are just trying to troll here bringing stupid ideas here and there.

He does have a point though. So when should chinese stop interior decoration - from the 50th year onwards ? with such restrictions you can hardly call it ownership.

 

[Nan Yang]

No it isn't. Tax is the money that is paid to the government. Housing Association is not a part of the government.

It is some form of tax.

It was the job of the local government. Now all new housing community MUST have housing association.
So the government wash hands of all responsibility and private house owner now have no choice but to pay up.

 

[letsrock]

Also lot of people are posting here smugly about property tax as if it is much fairer way for govt to collect taxes.

I find property tax a very unfair tax - it is nothing to do with cost of utilities or infrastructure - which are actually cheaper for more expensive urban houses. It is based on market value of a house. So you can live in a shack next door, pay abysmal property taxes and enjoy all the infrastructure.