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67th anniversary Hiroshima bombings

Racism And The Atomic Bomb

Anything else you need to be educated about? i imagine med school isnt the place to learn geopolitics and military strategy.

This for illustration...



Why don't you wail on these poor sobs too?

BS Audio!

An Ivy league medical education ensures one can reason and use logic and sift useless information and get to the crux of the matter. If you see the size of our books, you would understand.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

by Ralph Raico


This excerpt from Ralph Raico's "Harry S. Truman: Advancing the Revolution" in John V. Denson, ed., Reassessing the Presidency: The Rise of the Executive State and the Decline of Freedom (Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2001), is reprinted with permission. (The notes are numbered as they are because this is an excerpt. Read the whole article.)

The most spectacular episode of Truman's presidency will never be forgotten, but will be forever linked to his name: the atomic bombings of Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, and of Nagasaki three days later. Probably around two hundred thousand persons were killed in the attacks and through radiation poisoning; the vast majority were civilians, including several thousand Korean workers. Twelve U.S. Navy fliers incarcerated in a Hiroshima jail were also among the dead.

Great controversy has always surrounded the bombings. One thing Truman insisted on from the start: The decision to use the bombs, and the responsibility it entailed, was his. Over the years, he gave different, and contradictory, grounds for his decision. Sometimes he implied that he had acted simply out of revenge. To a clergyman who criticized him, Truman responded, testily:

Nobody is more disturbed over the use of Atomic bombs than I am but I was greatly disturbed over the unwarranted attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor and their murder of our prisoners of war. The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them.

Such reasoning will not impress anyone who fails to see how the brutality of the Japanese military could justify deadly retaliation against innocent men, women, and children. Truman doubtless was aware of this, so from time to time he advanced other pretexts. On August 9, 1945, he stated: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."

This, however, is absurd. Pearl Harbor was a military base. Hiroshima was a city, inhabited by some three hundred thousand people, which contained military elements. In any case, since the harbor was mined and the U.S. Navy and Air Force were in control of the waters around Japan, whatever troops were stationed in Hiroshima had been effectively neutralized.

On other occasions, Truman claimed that Hiroshima was bombed because it was an industrial center. But, as noted in the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, "all major factories in Hiroshima were on the periphery of the city – and escaped serious damage." The target was the center of the city. That Truman realized the kind of victims the bombs consumed is evident from his comment to his cabinet on August 10, explaining his reluctance to drop a third bomb: "The thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible," he said; he didn't like the idea of killing "all those kids." Wiping out another one hundred thousand people . . . all those kids.

Moreover, the notion that Hiroshima was a major military or industrial center is implausible on the face of it. The city had remained untouched through years of devastating air attacks on the Japanese home islands, and never figured in Bomber Command's list of the 33 primary targets.

Thus, the rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication, which has gained surprising currency: that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives. These, supposedly, are the lives that would have been lost in the planned invasion of Kyushu in December, then in the all-out invasion of Honshu the next year, if that was needed. But the worst-case scenario for a full-scale invasion of the Japanese home islands was forty-six thousand American lives lost. The ridiculously inflated figure of a half-million for the potential death toll – nearly twice the total of U.S. dead in all theaters in the Second World War – is now routinely repeated in high-school and college textbooks and bandied about by ignorant commentators. Unsurprisingly, the prize for sheer fatuousness on this score goes to President George H.W. Bush, who claimed in 1991 that dropping the bomb "spared millions of American lives."

Still, Truman's multiple deceptions and self-deceptions are understandable, considering the horror he unleashed. It is equally understandable that the U.S. occupation authorities censored reports from the shattered cities and did not permit films and photographs of the thousands of corpses and the frightfully mutilated survivors to reach the public. Otherwise, Americans – and the rest of the world – might have drawn disturbing comparisons to scenes then coming to light from the Nazi concentration camps.

The bombings were condemned as barbaric and unnecessary by high American military officers, including Eisenhower and MacArthur. The view of Admiral William D. Leahy, Truman's own chief of staff, was typical:

the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. . . . My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.97

The political elite implicated in the atomic bombings feared a backlash that would aid and abet the rebirth of horrid prewar "isolationism." Apologias were rushed into print, lest public disgust at the sickening war crime result in erosion of enthusiasm for the globalist project. No need to worry. A sea-change had taken place in the attitudes of the American people. Then and ever after, all surveys have shown that the great majority supported Truman, believing that the bombs were required to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, or more likely, not really caring one way or the other.

Those who may still be troubled by such a grisly exercise in cost-benefit analysis – innocent Japanese lives balanced against the lives of Allied servicemen – might reflect on the judgment of the Catholic philosopher G.E.M. Anscombe, who insisted on the supremacy of moral rules. When, in June 1956, Truman was awarded an honorary degree by her university, Oxford, Anscombe protested. Truman was a war criminal, she contended, for what is the difference between the U.S. government massacring civilians from the air, as at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Nazis wiping out the inhabitants of some Czech or Polish village?

By early summer 1945, the Japanese fully realized that they were beaten. Why did they nonetheless fight on? As Anscombe wrote: "It was the insistence on unconditional surrender that was the root of all evil."

That mad formula was coined by Roosevelt at the Casablanca conference, and, with Churchill's enthusiastic concurrence, it became the Allied shibboleth. After prolonging the war in Europe, it did its work in the Pacific. At the Potsdam conference, in July 1945, Truman issued a proclamation to the Japanese, threatening them with the "utter devastation" of their homeland unless they surrendered unconditionally. Among the Allied terms, to which "there are no alternatives," was that there be "eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest [sic]." "Stern justice," the proclamation warned, "would be meted out to all war criminals."

To the Japanese, this meant that the emperor – regarded by them to be divine, the direct descendent of the goddess of the sun – would certainly be dethroned and probably put on trial as a war criminal and hanged, perhaps in front of his palace. It was not, in fact, the U.S. intention to dethrone or punish the emperor. But this implicit modification of unconditional surrender was never communicated to the Japanese. In the end, after Nagasaki, Washington acceded to the Japanese desire to keep the dynasty and even to retain Hirohito as emperor.

For months before, Truman had been pressed to clarify the U.S. position by many high officials within the administration, and outside of it, as well. In May 1945, at the president's request, Herbert Hoover prepared a memorandum stressing the urgent need to end the war as soon as possible. The Japanese should be informed that we would in no way interfere with the emperor or their chosen form of government. He even raised the possibility that, as part of the terms, Japan might be allowed to hold on to Formosa (Taiwan) and Korea. After meeting with Truman, Hoover dined with Taft and other Republican leaders, and outlined his proposals.

But even remaining within the limits of feasible diplomacy in 1945, it is clear that Truman in no way exhausted the possibilities of ending the war without recourse to the atomic bomb. The Japanese were not informed that they would be the victims of by far the most lethal weapon ever invented (one with "more than two thousand times the blast power of the British ‘Grand Slam,' which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare," as Truman boasted in his announcement of the Hiroshima attack). Nor were they told that the Soviet Union was set to declare war on Japan, an event that shocked some in Tokyo more than the bombings.

Pleas by some of the scientists involved in the project to demonstrate the power of the bomb in some uninhabited or evacuated area were rebuffed. All that mattered was to formally preserve the unconditional surrender formula and save the servicemen's lives that might have been lost in the effort to enforce it. Yet, as Major General J.F.C. Fuller, one of the century's great military historians, wrote in connection with the atomic bombings:

Though to save life is laudable, it in no way justifies the employment of means which run counter to every precept of humanity and the customs of war. Should it do so, then, on the pretext of shortening a war and of saving lives, every imaginable atrocity can be justified.

While the mass media parroted the government line in praising the atomic incinerations, prominent conservatives denounced them as unspeakable war crimes. Felix Morley, constitutional scholar and one of the founders of Human Events, drew attention to the horror of Hiroshima, including the "thousands of children trapped in the thirty-three schools that were destroyed." He called on his compatriots to atone for what had been done in their name, and proposed that groups of Americans be sent to Hiroshima, as Germans were sent to witness what had been done in the Nazi camps.

The Paulist priest, Father James Gillis, editor of The Catholic World and another stalwart of the Old Right, castigated the bombings as "the most powerful blow ever delivered against Christian civilization and the moral law." David Lawrence, conservative owner of U.S. News and World Report, continued to denounce them for years. The distinguished conservative philosopher Richard Weaver was revolted by the spectacle of young boys fresh out of Kansas and Texas turning nonmilitary Dresden into a holocaust . . . pulverizing ancient shrines like Monte Cassino and Nuremberg, and bringing atomic annihilation to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Weaver considered such atrocities as deeply "inimical to the foundations on which civilization is built."

Leo Szilard was the world-renowned physicist who drafted the original letter to Roosevelt that Einstein signed, instigating the Manhattan Project. In 1960, shortly before his death, Szilard stated another obvious truth:

If the Germans had dropped atomic bombs on cities instead of us, we would have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them.

The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a war crime worse than any that Japanese generals were executed for in Tokyo and Manila. If Harry Truman was not a war criminal, then no one ever was.




So my American friends, let us accept - history is written by the the victors.

But that does not make them right.

And history will remember them for such. And judge them accordingly.

Cheers, Doc
 
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The Paulist priest, Father James Gillis, editor of The Catholic World and another stalwart of the Old Right, castigated the bombings as "the most powerful blow ever delivered against Christian civilization and the moral law." David Lawrence, conservative owner of U.S. News and World Report, continued to denounce them for years. The distinguished conservative philosopher Richard Weaver was revolted by the spectacle of young boys fresh out of Kansas and Texas turning nonmilitary Dresden into a holocaust . . . pulverizing ancient shrines like Monte Cassino and Nuremberg, and bringing atomic annihilation to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Weaver considered such atrocities as deeply "inimical to the foundations on which civilization is built."



Bunch of sissies rather willing to expose the second cheek for a second attack then to strike back. What good is a civilization with foundations if it falls immediately when the first brute arrives?

As for the Jew on the deathbed...well all sorts of people do remorse when they feel their time is near.

Rest of it is all debatable, i just dont have the energy right now...and i dont even care.
 
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page acting coy

Bunch of sissies rather willing to expose the second cheek for a second attack then to strike back. What good is a civilization with foundations if it falls immediately when the first brute arrives?

As for the Jew on the deathbed...well all sorts of people do remorse when they feel their time is near.

Rest of it is all debatable, i just dont have the energy right now...and i dont even care.

I guess Leahy and the rest of your soldiers were a bunch of sissies as well.

Let's wait for Gambit to come back re-charged then.
 
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The Target Committee nominated four targets: Kokura, the site of one of Japan's largest munitions plants; Hiroshima, an embarkation port and industrial center that was the site of a major military headquarters; Niigata, a port with industrial facilities including steel and aluminium plants and an oil refinery; and Kyoto, a major industrial center. The target selection was subject to the following criteria:
The target was larger than 3 miles (4.8 km) in diameter and was an important target in a large urban area.
The blast would create effective damage.
The target was unlikely to be attacked by August 1945. "Any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage in order to avoid undue risks of the weapon being lost due to bad placing of the bomb."[46]
These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made. Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target."[46] The US had previously dropped leaflets warning civilians of air raids on 35 Japanese cities, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki.[47]

Any questions?
 
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Wonder if they celebrate Pearl Harbor day in Japan.
 
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Just One -

Why are you pasting stuff in such small tiny font man.

I am a 40+ guy and I generally leave my reading glasses at home.

I dont like walls of text. Hold ctrl and push mouse wheel up and the page zooms in with most browsers.
 
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The defence of Hiroshima being a military target is very weak man.

It is a big city, and there is no way a bomber pilot needed to plop the bomb smack in the center when the only so-called legitimate military targets were on the peripheral suburbs. Not even WWII bombing was that inaccurate.

Nagasaki there was no defence. It was industrial at best.

And did I read part of the defence as "leaflets thrown over 35 cities of bombing raids, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki"?

Really?

Is an A-bomb equivalent to a "bombing raid" to a nuclear naive population?
 
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Both viable targets in a total war. I dont understand how you fail to see this?

Bombing cities was nothing new, for many of them you can claim they were only industrial. But one can deduce fairly accurately what exactly these industries are doing in a total war scenario.

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of both industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan.[54] His command consisted of some 400,000 men, most of whom were on Kyushu where an Allied invasion was correctly expected.[55] Also present in Hiroshima was the headquarters of the Fifty-Ninth Army, and most of the 224th Division, a recently formed mobile unit.[56] The city's air defenses comprised five batteries of 7-and-8-centimetre (2.8 and 3.1 in) anti-aircraft guns.[57]
Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb.[58]

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.
Nagasaki had never been subjected to large-scale bombing prior to the explosion of a nuclear weapon there. On August 1, 1945, however, a number of conventional high-explosive bombs were dropped on the city. A few hit in the shipyards and dock areas in the southwest portion of the city, several hit the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, and six bombs landed at the Nagasaki Medical School and Hospital, with three direct hits on buildings there. While the damage from these bombs was relatively small, it created considerable concern in Nagasaki and many people—principally school children—were evacuated to rural areas for safety, thus reducing the population in the city at the time of the nuclear attack. By early August the city was defended by four batteries of 7 centimetres (2.8 in) anti-aircraft guns and two searchlight batteries.[57]

You like to read, here's some more:

Essay: Why Did We Drop the Bomb? - TIME

Ultimately, i dont care if it was bombed only to force Japan to surrender or to send Russians a message or combination of both.
It ended a long, grueling war in which these 200.000 didnt really mean much against the ~50 million deaths in total. You are making me sound like Sino Challenged.:cry:
 
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Yet after seeing what Hiroshima did, you went ahead three days later and flattened Nagasaki?

Did you know that Fat Boy was much bigger and the 80 odd thousand who died would have been 3-4 times more if cloudy conditions did not cause the bomb to be dropped on the periphery of the city?
 
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Yet after seeing what Hiroshima did, you went ahead three days later and flattened Nagasaki?

Did you know that Fat Boy was much bigger and the 80 odd thousand who died would have been 3-4 times more if cloudy conditions did not cause the bomb to be dropped on the periphery of the city?

IIRC a formal call to surrender was made between the both drops by Truman.
And yes i know. Hills around the city were also a factor.

At 11:01, a last minute break in the clouds over Nagasaki allowed Bockscar's bombardier, Captain Kermit Beahan, to visually sight the target as ordered. The Fat Man weapon, containing a core of about 6.4 kilograms (14 lb) of plutonium, was dropped over the city's industrial valley. It exploded 43 seconds later at 469 metres (1,539 ft) above the ground halfway between the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works in the south and the Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works (Torpedo Works) in the north. This was nearly 3 kilometres (1.9 mi) northwest of the planned hypocenter; the blast was confined to the Urakami Valley and a major portion of the city was protected by the intervening hills.

wiki FTW! lol
 
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The defence of Hiroshima being a military target is very weak man.

It is a big city, and there is no way a bomber pilot needed to plop the bomb smack in the center when the only so-called legitimate military targets were on the peripheral suburbs. Not even WWII bombing was that inaccurate.

Nagasaki there was no defence. It was industrial at best.

And did I read part of the defence as "leaflets thrown over 35 cities of bombing raids, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki"?

Really?

Is an A-bomb equivalent to a "bombing raid" to a nuclear naive population?
Are you speaking from experience?

It is so funny that for someone who claimed the discussion 'wasted' his time and that he is tired of all this 'back and forth' is now putting all efforts into rehashing what have been discussed before.
 
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IIRC a formal call to surrender was made between the both drops by Truman.
And yes i know. Hills around the city were also a factor.

I call BS on the first. True on the second wrt Hiroshima.

What then changed between Nagasaki and surrender a day later?

Changed with respect to what the Japanese had already agree to in March - 5 months earlier.

Gambit is back :) and I need to get home :(

It is so funny that for someone who claimed the discussion 'wasted' his time and that he is tired of all this 'back and forth' is now putting all efforts into rehashing what have been discussed before.

I was chastized into action by someone who spends so much time and effort educating us on aeroplanes.
 
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Yet after seeing what Hiroshima did, you went ahead three days later and flattened Nagasaki?

Did you know that Fat Boy was much bigger and the 80 odd thousand who died would have been 3-4 times more if cloudy conditions did not cause the bomb to be dropped on the periphery of the city?
After Hiroshima AND Nagasaki, the Emperor decided to surrender but a cadre of officers decided otherwise. They attempted a palace coup and it was only the cleverness of the palace staff that the surrender speech was smuggled out of the palace and into the Emperor's hand.

Ky
On August 9, 1945 the Japanese government, responding to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to the declaration of war by the Soviet Union and to the effective loss of the Pacific and Asian-mainland territories, decided to accept the Potsdam Declaration.

The rebels, led by Hatanaka, spent the next several hours fruitlessly searching for Imperial House Minister Sōtarō Ishiwatari, Lord of the Privy Seal Kōichi Kido, and the recordings of the surrender speech. The two men were hiding in the "bank vault", a large chamber underneath the Imperial Palace.
No one in the Allies knew of this event until after the occupation.

What this mean is that the fear of a long and protracted siege of the Japanese islands, an eventual invasion, a bloody occupation, and the lengthening of the war was legitimate.
 
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