60 years on, 87 Kashmiris want independence

[Awesome]

well my messages are too big so i use shortcuts... dude, it took me 30 minutes not 30 seconds to get that post in

gud advice... i'll try to keep dat in mind next time. i hope so...

Dimension please don't refer a much senior member as a dog...

And take keys' advice and go easy on the SMS lingo...

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Ya ya, u gyz are always right, lets give u gyz the benefit of the doubt... woah a jungle of man-eating Tigers... thats a nice way to put it, so thats what india is? a jungle of man-eating tigers?

Sad that you can twist an allegory to satiate your perversion, if I may call it so.

As far as anyone who feels the country live in is not good for them, they should do what Lord Byron did when he was banished from England....go to Italy - he found his niche there!

Lots of Indians have gone to the US (and I am not taking of Moslems alone) because they found the US better than India. I find it a better choice of going where the heart is and not sit at home and gripe and grouse.

Of course, one has to be competent to find a suitable way to live when the migrate. Even the uneducated who wishes to leave for a better life has to have labour skills. An unskilled and uneducated will obviously have to live where he is and if need be gripe and grouse!

But that is life!

 

[haviZsultan]

Dimension please don't refer a much senior member as a dog...

And take keys' advice and go easy on the SMS lingo...

Hanh, when did i call anyone a dog? I sed i'll follow the exalted advice given by the supreme leader. Does that make you happy?

 

[haviZsultan]

Sad that you can twist an allegory to satiate your perversion, if I may call it so.

Well u sed it, not me... dun blame me!

As far as anyone who feels the country live in is not good for them, they should do what Lord Byron did when he was banished from England....go to Italy - he found his niche there!

Oh, so its okay for the jungles majority to treat mozlemz this way? Okay, go to italy cauz u don't belong here and if u don't have money tough luck! we will torture u for the rest of your lives. Ur problem is u don't want to admit any problems in ur country. You are dodging again.

Lots of Indians have gone to the US (and I am not taking of Moslems alone) because they found the US better than India. I find it a better choice of going where the heart is and not sit at home and gripe and grouse.

Good! Cauz living in constant bias and the feeling of not belonging in ur country is the worst thing any1n can feel and many muslims still feel that way in india... my family there included!

Of course, one has to be competent to find a suitable way to live when the migrate. Even the uneducated who wishes to leave for a better life has to have labour skills. An unskilled and uneducated will obviously have to live where he is and if need be gripe and grouse!

U are slipping furhter and further. What are you talking about? Are u telling me u are uneducated and unskilled so u are living in india?

But that is life!

Is there any relationship between this post and my posts cauz u're talking only about migration here and for sum reason u do not want to refer to india and are talking about evrything in the world exept it. I mentioned much more than just muslim migration to Pak in that huge peice of writing. Why can't any of u answer that? (dodging again)

 

[anand]

this topic is about kashmir, so lets stick to that (practicing mod job ). Majority of people from Valley want freedom it is a known fact. But it is also a fact that neither Pakistan nor India is interested in giving them freedom. I can not recall a single instance where Musharraf has called for free kashmir in his scheme of things. I don't think any significant changes will take place in kashmir's status in near future. Let us see what is there for Kashmir in coming years and hope for better.

 

[haviZsultan]

this topic is about kashmir, so lets stick to that (practicing mod job ). Majority of people from Valley want freedom it is a known fact. But it is also a fact that neither Pakistan nor India is interested in giving them freedom. I can not recall a single instance where Musharraf has called for free kashmir in his scheme of things. I don't think any significant changes will take place in kashmir's status in near future. Let us see what is there for Kashmir in coming years and hope for better.

Strike me down! Are u taking drugs or sumthing cauz i dun think u knw wat u're saying. Musharraf has always wanted a free kashmir! A simple search on google will prove it! You are the 1nz not willing to give it up not us!

See for urself:

Musharraf offers Kashmir 'solution' | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

and this was in 2006...

 

[anand]

Strike me down! Are u taking drugs or sumthing cauz i dun think u knw wat u're saying. Musharraf has always wanted a free kashmir! A simple search on google will prove it! You are the 1nz not willing to give it up not us!

See for urself:

Musharraf offers Kashmir 'solution' | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

and this was in 2006...

this is from the above article in Guardian...

"...He said a "four-point solution" to Kashmir, including a gradual withdrawal of troops, self-governance, no changes to the region's borders and a joint supervision mechanism...."

Did he talk about free Kashmir country. And what do you mean by joint supervision mechanism of a free country. The above article only proves point that Musharraf also wants Kashmir to be under shadow of India and Pakistan rather than a free country. As far as self-governance is concerned, India has always offered that under framework of Indian constitution, which is not acceptable to Kashmiris ( People of valley to be more precise).

 

[haviZsultan]

Dude how did you manage to ignore the first paragraph? Read This! Jointly-supervising is initial until Kashmir is ready to stand on its own feet! That is india and Pak will share power over it till then. U can't just toss a country freedom in a single day. We have to ensure they can sustain themselves right?

<Pakistan could be willing to give up its claim to Kashmir if India agrees to a self-government plan for the disputed Himalayan region, President Pervez Musharraf said today.
General Musharraf told the Indian New Delhi Television channel his country would back wide-ranging autonomy or self-governance for Kashmir, with Islamabad and New Delhi jointly supervising the region.

Asked whether Pakistan would be ready to give up its claim to Kashmir, he said: "We will have to ... if this solution comes up.">

 

[Always Neutral]

Dude how did you manage to ignore the first paragraph? Read This! Jointly-supervising is initial until Kashmir is ready to stand on its own feet! That is india and Pak will share power over it till then. U can't just toss a country freedom in a single day. We have to ensure they can sustain themselves right?

<Pakistan could be willing to give up its claim to Kashmir if India agrees to a self-government plan for the disputed Himalayan region, President Pervez Musharraf said today.
General Musharraf told the Indian New Delhi Television channel his country would back wide-ranging autonomy or self-governance for Kashmir, with Islamabad and New Delhi jointly supervising the region.

Asked whether Pakistan would be ready to give up its claim to Kashmir, he said: "We will have to ... if this solution comes up.">

Dear Dimension,

Usually I keep far away from these kind of discussions but you really seem to be living in your own DIMENSION WHICH IS FAR AWAY FROM REALITY. No Pakistani or Indian Government can give independence to Kashmir whether its for Pakistan or Indian or Chinese controlled areas. Kashmir is strategic land for both Indian and Pakistan as it controls the rivers flowing into Pakistan and India. As a foreigner I have visited Indian side of Kashmir consisting of Srinagar Valley ( which truly wants independence/pakistan rule/autonomy with no Indian Army there in that order), Jammu (where if you said the word Pakistan you would be lynched) and then Leh where they are very happy being a part of India. So what is your defination for freedom for Kashmir ? This is only the Indian side of the problem. On the Pakistan side the situation is equally grim. Nearly 5,180 sq km (2,000 sq miles) of northern Kashmir was ceded to Beijing by Pakistan under a 1963 pact after the Chinese had captured 38,000 square kilometers (14,670 sq mile) of Indian territory in Aksai Chin in erstwhile Kashmir.

CNN.com - Aksai Chin: China's disputed slice of Kashmir - May 24, 2002

Have you seen the Gen. asking the Chinese to give freedom to the Kashmiris in that territory ? I would love to see their reaction if the Gen. asks for plebicite in Chinese controlled Kashmir ?

I feel really bad for the Kashmiris as they had a valid reason for the plebicite in the 1950's to decide their own future but now independence is not on offer from any of the three countries involved including Pakistan for strategic reasons and thats a fact which the newer generation of Kashmiris are accepting. There are some very candid comments from the senior Pakistani orgin members here about what is Kashmir and most of them concede today Kashmir is the valley of Srinagar only in Indian terms.

Please don't believe the views of the politicians from India and Pakistan about how their hearts cry for the Kashmiris as these are just crocodile tears. I have also met a lot of Indian muslims who are proud to be Indians (it was a muslim who gave India the A Bomb)and lot of Hindus who are proud to be Pakistanis (Don't forget it was Hindu Acting Chief Justice who set right the political crisis in Pakistan).

Above said, I think the Gen. is a sincere and pragmatic person who sees that the issue of Kashmir from both Pakistans security vis vis India's political limitations and is sincerely resolving the same with Indians through Track II secret negotiations. Unfortunately USA's intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan have created a backlash in Pakistan which has probably kept him pre-occupied.

Regards

 

[haviZsultan]

Dear Dimension,

Usually I keep far away from these kind of discussions but you really seem to be living in your own DIMENSION WHICH IS FAR AWAY FROM REALITY. No Pakistani or Indian Government can give independence to Kashmir whether its for Pakistan or Indian or Chinese controlled areas. Kashmir is strategic land for both Indian and Pakistan as it controls the rivers flowing into Pakistan and India. As a foreigner I have visited Indian side of Kashmir consisting of Srinagar Valley ( which truly wants independence/pakistan rule/autonomy with no Indian Army there in that order), Jammu (where if you said the word Pakistan you would be lynched) and then Leh where they are very happy being a part of India. So what is your defination for freedom for Kashmir ? This is only the Indian side of the problem. On the Pakistan side the situation is equally grim. Nearly 5,180 sq km (2,000 sq miles) of northern Kashmir was ceded to Beijing by Pakistan under a 1963 pact after the Chinese had captured 38,000 square kilometers (14,670 sq mile) of Indian territory in Aksai Chin in erstwhile Kashmir.

CNN.com - Aksai Chin: China's disputed slice of Kashmir - May 24, 2002

Have you seen the Gen. asking the Chinese to give freedom to the Kashmiris in that territory ? I would love to see their reaction if the Gen. asks for plebicite in Chinese controlled Kashmir ?

I feel really bad for the Kashmiris as they had a valid reason for the plebicite in the 1950's to decide their own future but now independence is not on offer from any of the three countries involved including Pakistan for strategic reasons and thats a fact which the newer generation of Kashmiris are accepting. There are some very candid comments from the senior Pakistani orgin members here about what is Kashmir and most of them concede today Kashmir is the valley of Srinagar only in Indian terms.

Please don't believe the views of the politicians from India and Pakistan about how their hearts cry for the Kashmiris as these are just crocodile tears. I have also met a lot of Indian muslims who are proud to be Indians (it was a muslim who gave India the A Bomb)and lot of Hindus who are proud to be Pakistanis (Don't forget it was Hindu Acting Chief Justice who set right the political crisis in Pakistan).

Above said, I think the Gen. is a sincere and pragmatic person who sees that the issue of Kashmir from both Pakistans security vis vis India's political limitations and is sincerely resolving the same with Indians through Track II secret negotiations. Unfortunately USA's intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan have created a backlash in Pakistan which has probably kept him pre-occupied.

Regards

But musharraf is willing to give Kashmir Freedom.The indians are'nt claiming that its their land... I just proved that. What do i hav to do to tell u?

What are you talking about? Aksai Chin is barren empty land and totally remote. We lost nothing to china exept a few nomad camper dudes. India lost sum tiny encampments of nomads in the land they lost to china as they lost more land and that is why they are whining. The area has no Kashmiris man... its empty barren land with barely any people there except a few nomads f4m time to time. I mean just check and u'll find out that there are no settlements there for example a village, town or a city. And if there were any people there in the area captured by china they have never complained of mistreatment whereas in Indian occupied Kashmir the people are sick of the unequal treatment and really want freedom.

Dude our fight for the freedom of Kashmiris in india is because of their inhuman treatment and the denial of their rights. The torture rape and killings by the army...Please stop telling us not to be humans and deny them the right to have a free land. These constant claims that Pakistan/Musharraf is not committed to giving the kashmiris a free land are baseless. We cannot just free Azad Kashmir until the indians agree to freeing their I.O.K. as there will be no use. We want Kashmir to be a free land of the Kashmiris as has been our view for so long and as is the basic right of Kashmiris to decide their own future! The indians believe they have some "right to rule kashmir" (even though it is against the will of the Kashmiri people)

 

[aksingh]

Dimension 117 on what basis is Kashmir Pakistani and not Indian???

 

[haviZsultan]

Dimension 117 on what basis is Kashmir Pakistani and not Indian???

I think i'm going to cry... When did i say "Kashmir is Pakistani"? What in this forsaken world are u talking about? Kashmir is Kashmiri not indian or pakistani...

If u trying to make up things here just to get my attention i must tell u that its the usual effect! I mean this is what happens when people get to know me they wanna get my attention and please me... Now maybe 2marrow u will come and tell me you are a Pakistani just to get my attention and say that u are freeing Kashmir just to make me happy...

"Kashmir is Pakistani?" Do u think of Kashmir as some property of sum1n or a sort of commodity... do u say that Kashmir was made in Pakistan or made in india. Is that how you refer to a state in ur country? One day u'll be saying "i'm sick of Uttar-Pradesh lets throw it away and get california in return!"

In each and evry post i have been saying that Kashmir shud be an independent country including both Indian occupied kashmir and Azad Kashmir. I never said Kashmir is Pakistani or 'kashmir is a pakistani land." Infact i can even shout it if u want. Why don't you understand we are not the type of people who force people who do not accept our governence. I have said over and over that the future of Kashmir should be decided by the Kashmiri people not the government of either nation...

 

[aksingh]

If u trying to make up things here just to get my attention i must tell u that its the usual effect! I mean this is what happens when people get to know me they wanna get my attention and please me... Now maybe 2marrow u will come and tell me you are a Pakistani just to get my attention and say that u are freeing Kashmir just to make me happy...

don't flatter yourself mate....


Nah! anyways.. at least you are the more moderate Pakistani voice in the forum cheers...
you acknowledge the fact that Kashmir is neither Indian nor Pakistani.
May I also add it'll be a herculean task for Kashmir to be independent and it'll be neigh well impossible.. so .. that aside first the killings should stop of innocents... cheers

 

[haviZsultan]

Yeah and you are the first indian i have seen admit that the actions of the army in Kashmir on innocent civilians are wrong and admit that it is the right of the Kashmiris to decide their future.

Yes definately the murder, rape, torture, arrests and siezure of property by the army shud stop! That wud be the first step to peace in the region... and perhaps if u treat them as equal and try to win them over rather than suppressing them they will start thinking of themselves as indians. The only reason they are discontent is bcuz they are not treated fairly.

 

[haviZsultan]

Also, another problem that is ignored is that many Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir are content and have accepted Pakistani rule... we will have to give Azad Kashmir up to the new independent Kashmir just to say we are comitted to the freedom of Kashmir. Well it is necessary to end the abuse of Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir anyway... if this will end their suffering then so be it!