5th Gen Aircraft Maybe Impotent Against A Large Enemy W/out A Complimentary Heavy Strike Aircraft

[Immortan.Joe]

Sir we lack budget other wise as policy matter I agree with you we need two heavy Fighter Jets one should be Air Superiority and other should be bomber. In other words we need Jets like SU-35 and SU-34 in our Air Force.

I do not understand this newfound fascination of Pakistanis with flankers. I mean it is ret@rded at so many levels.

1. India is second largest operator of flankers in the world (It has 4 times more Su 30 than Russia and only 40 less than total number of flankers with Russia). India has practically written operation manual of flankers.

I mean a purchase of any flanker by Pakistan would be even worse than purchase of F-16 by India. In case of F-16, at least there is USA and other NATO and non-NATO allies who have more experience than Pakistan, but in case of flankers, not even Russia has as much experience as India.

2. Flankers are one of the most costly military hardware in term of LCC. The maximum that Pakistanis could afford (a squadron at max) is going to do diddly squat against 300+ flankers that India would field. The whole fantasy of bombing India using jets is just that, a fantasy.

3. Su-35 does not bring any significant technological superiority over Indian Su-30MKI. It may be improvement over Russian Su-30, but India does not field vanilla version of Su30. It field souped up MKI version which has Indian, Israeli, French, and Swedish avionics. IAF has already tested Su-35 and rejected it out of hand as it did not had any significant advantage over MKIs, and MLUed MKIs would be superior to Su-35.

4. Su-35 has no future for a country like Pakistan. Su-35 is a gap filler for RuAF till it get enough FGFA/PAK-FA in numbers. There is no separate R&D project going on for upgrades of Su-35. All its technological improvements would be spin-offs of PAK-FA/FGFA project.

If Pakistanis have have forgotten it, I would like to remind them that FGFA/PAK-FA is Indo-Russian joint venture. All Intellectual property generated by it would be co-owned by India and Russia, which means that India could block sale of any equipment based on that IP (like Radar upgrades, Radar absorbent coatings etc) to third parties like Pakistan, and this time blacking would not be on lines of " Oh dear Ruskies! our bestest oldest friend! why you sell to Pakistan? why? why?", but on lines of " Hey! IP on which that radar is based is our property too. We forbid any sale of such radar to Pakistan".

In effect Su-35 that Pakistan would get is a monkey model which would not be up-gradable unless Russians specifically do R&D to improve Su-35, rather than ploughing tech generated by FGFA program into Su-35 (which would be economical option).


If I am a Pakistani planner and want a twin engine fighter, F-15/18 would be my first choice. Some posters may cry about sanctions and stuff, but be realistic here- in case of American sanction, PAF is anyway flying junk. PAF has not diversified its inventory (JF-17 does not count. It is a redesigned F-7 which has third generation stable design, one of the reason why it does not need FBW on all three axes. It would not last more than few minutes, if it has misfortune of facing frontline Indian fighters. PAF should have brought European planes to offset its dependence on USA), and on top of it, the country on which it is dependent is a control freak thus F-16s of PAF requiring periodic supply to encryption codes from LM to function. BUT in situation where purchase order would not exceed a squadron, it is better/economical to buy American.


Second choice would be Eurofighter (If PAF could scrap together enough cash as Eurofighter would not come as aid like F-teens are coming). Rafales may have been a choice , but Indian order is so huge that Pakistan should forget buying anything from France for a decade or two.

In Twin engines, Chinese models are limited to inferior dual engine models like JH-7 as Chinese J-11 are copied Russian design and exporting them would create a diplomatic row between China and Russia.

Personally, I think PAF should have inducted a European plane to diversify its inventory, whether it was Mirage-2K in 1990s or Gripen in 2000s. By making its airforce F-16 only, it has put all its eggs in one basket.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

I know you are bashing PAF (hence I should not care), but misinformation in this post is too much.

Hi,

1965---Asghar Khan calls indian chief and says if your air force don't fight I will order mine not to.

Both countries used their air-force, so this point is infructuous.

+ You have no source; and neither there could be a credible one for private chat between Air chiefs.

before 71 war---Bhutto asks the air force have the B57 canberra electronic surveillance aircraft fly over the kashmir and surrounding areas----air chief refused

And what difference would an undefended aircraft made to your war effort except adding one more kill to Indian tally.

Looks like PAF chief had better common sense than Bhutto.

71 war---report of missile boats being towed towards karachi---pia pilots reports to the tower---the tower calls paf----the coward base commander yessir---instead of flying an immediate mission to check out---calls the air chief---who orders to stand down---none of you traitors had the ballz to execute him---

Missile boat raid took place during night. You did not had aircrafts capable of night bombing capability.During day, those missile boats stayed outside 460 Km radius of PAF aircrafts. PAF could have done diddly squat even if it wanted to, like it did during operation Python three days later (which was expected by everyone).

And to add, this tale is a fantasy cooked up by some fanboi. There was no reports to tower and no coward base commander who did not ordered strike on those missile boats. In fact there were no PIA flights flying during middle of war, and all its aircraft assets were in Iran. This is evident from the fact that PNS Khibar did not even knew that Styx fired towards it is a missile, mistook it for an aircraft, and tried to engage it with AA guns.

Only part PIA pilots probably played in war was to fly recon flight over Karachi in propeller planes in the aftermath of operation Trident which resulted in PAF sinking their own destroyers due to mistaken identification.

Paf pilots bragging about shooting down worthless russian aircraft and then strutting around----

going for the 2nd batch of F16's with cash and that also against the advise of many----sanctions on F16's

Probably because irrespective of all the chest beating done by Pakistanis, your F-16 are heavily subsidized by military aid and you have to pay only a small fraction of their cost, thus allowing you to afford more for same money.

YET

The mirage 2k purchase fiasco---the supposed buyer---was too honest---

no go with the m2ks----

That was a genuine mistake of PAF. Buying Mirage-2000 would have blocked India from western market as India could not buy F-16 due to its bad relations with US during that time period.

karachi base under attack---half a billion dollars planes destroyed---the base commander was had marriarge hall at the base---base security what????instead of being executed by a firing squad????

And what should that commandar had done?

Saddled on a white horse and charged into battle!

That operation was meant to be handled by a brigadiar at max,

another base attacked ay kamra---another 1 /2 billion loss---another coawrd base commander---if it was not for one soldier---all the assets would have been destroyed---/

Would not recommend nishan a haider for that soldier who saved the base---but did recommend nishan a haider for the pilot who stopped his plane on the taxi way where he was not supposed to and let an illegal into the aircraft

Everyone know that 9/10 times these tales are fake and created for dramatic effect.

the jf 17 drama----failed to recognize the problems in france regarding the electronics package---a major setback for the jf17 program---

And your solution is: ?????

France refused to provide you with any electronic package because India bribed it with Mirage-2000 upgradation deal which was worth more than entire JF-17 program.

What choice did you had except China? NONE.

Doing business with India is much more profitable for Europeans, you people are on "kill every Jew you could find" team so Israel is not an option. USA does not indulge in tech transfer and would have not supplied even a screw for Chinese made plane. India has too much hold over Russia. In view of this, China was your only option.

the air chief brags on flying a mission killing 30 taliban---the taliban strike back and kill a minimum of 30 air force personal---what and idiot of an acm---.

Are you saying that Taliban would not have attacked had your ACM kept his mouth shut?

If you are making this argument, you have already lost war.

After the first base attack---the base commander---the base security incharge and westernn command should have been executed by a firing squad

after the attack on kamra---the base commander----base security officer----the central command the air chief should have been executed by the firing squad---same after the thrid attack at peshawar----.

I guess the thrid attack would not have happend---because every body would have been on their toes after the first executions---.

And those attacks would still happen.

The Bomber Will Always Get Through - Stanley Baldwin 1932

15 years since the sanctions came off---a miniscule number of aircraft procured

the farud in the SA missile systems---

the mindset of the air force---' we are a defensive air force "---a big lie to the nation---

this fraud incompetence treachery is on the surface---the insider stuff---you would know better---.

As if your AF has a choice. At least till 80s PAF could boast of technological superiority, but since 90s IAF not only has massive technological but also quantitative superiority over PAF, backed with very capable SAM network. Any offensive operation of PAF would end in one sided slaughter of PAF ending PAF within hours rather than days of start of war.

The asymmetry has become so steep that in a decade Indian Navy Airforce would be larger and more sophisticated than PAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

And what difference would an undefended aircraft made to your war effort except adding one more kill to Indian tally.

Senor,

Before I answer to you---prove yourself on the board---. It is easy to ride someone's posts.

But to put you in your place----here is an eye opener for you---.

That helpless spy plane could fly at an altitude of over 65000---75000 feet---you needed space suits to fly it---as stated by one of the USAF officers deployed at karachi airbase at that time and was an active member on this board till a few years ago---stated the flying altitude to be around 80000 feet.

Which means it could cover any region in india without the threat of being intercepted with what the iaf had and taken the pictures of the areas in question to show indian army deployment---.

But what is your itch coming to the rescue of paf---.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Senor,

Before I answer to you---prove yourself on the board---. It is easy to ride someone's posts.

But to put you in your place----here is an eye opener for you---.

That helpless spy plane could fly at an altitude of over 65000---75000 feet---you needed space suits to fly it---as stated by one of the USAF officers deployed at karachi airbase at that time and was an active member on this board till a few years ago---stated the flying altitude to be around 80000 feet.

Which means it could cover any region in india without the threat of being intercepted with what the iaf had and taken the pictures of the areas in question to show indian army deployment---.

But what is your itch coming to the rescue of paf---.

What prove yourself on the board? Am I dabbling in propriety information so that credentials would matter?

All credible source state B57's ceiling to be around 40-50000 feet and B57 canberra has been shot down by J-5 (ceiling 54000 feet) Mig-17 (53000) and S-75 dvina SAM (82000) and numerous times by Vietnamese ground/SAM fire proving that the stated ceiling is correct and that 60000-80000 one is a lie.

Mig-17 had flight ceiling of 53000 feet and was still able to shoot B57 using guns . In comparison to this, India had Mig-21 which had altitude ceiling of 61000 feet and were armed with AtoA missiles which means that they could easily shoot down a low maneuverable defenceless aircraft flying some 400-900 feet above them even in your make belief numbers. Heck even antique (by 1971 standard) Mystere with IAF could bring down B57.

Dvina has higher flight altitude (82000 feet) than even most propagandist B57's altitude and India had that missile, which means bye bye B57. even in Indo-Pak war's a B57 (s/n 52-1559)belonging to USAF (which was doing covert recon in 1965 war for USA) was damaged by Dvina SAM with India, and B57 belonging to PAF (s/n 53-3940) was shot down by ground fire in Jamnagar another (s/n 53-3943) was shot down in Bhuj,and (s/n 53-3948) was shot down near Amritsar,

In 1965, even your own ground fire crew shot down a B57 (s/n 53-3961) near Rahwali by mistake.

So thinking that B57 could not be intercepted, when it has been intercepted many times in past, is a sad joke. .

And space suit tale is again a lie. A B57 crashed in 1965 over black sea due to failure of onboard oxygen generation system suffocating pilots, proving that no spacesuits were issued to pilots.This is in addition to numerous crashes of B57 in which spacesuit has never been recovered. Anyway if B57 would have been capable of doing 80,000 feet, USA would not had made U-2 as their surveillance plane with ceiling of 70,000 feet.

 

[MastanKhan]

What prove yourself on the board? Am I dabbling in propriety information so that credentials would matter?

All credible source state B57's ceiling to be around 40-50000 feet and B57 canberra has been shot down by J-5 (ceiling 54000 feet) Mig-17 (53000) and S-75 dvina SAM (82000) and numerous times by Vietnamese ground/SAM fire proving that the stated ceiling is correct and that 60000-80000 one is a lie.

Mig-17 had flight ceiling of 53000 feet and was still able to shoot B57 using guns . In comparison to this, India had Mig-21 which had altitude ceiling of 61000 feet and were armed with AtoA missiles which means that they could easily shoot down a low maneuverable defenceless aircraft flying some 400-900 feet above them even in your make belief numbers. Heck even antique (by 1971 standard) Mystere with IAF could bring down B57.

Dvina has higher flight altitude (82000 feet) than even most propagandist B57's altitude and India had that missile, which means bye bye B57. even in Indo-Pak war's a B57 (s/n 52-1559)belonging to USAF (which was doing covert recon in 1965 war for USA) was damaged by Dvina SAM with India, and B57 belonging to PAF (s/n 53-3940) was shot down by ground fire in Jamnagar another (s/n 53-3943) was shot down in Bhuj,and (s/n 53-3948) was shot down near Amritsar,

In 1965, even your own ground fire crew shot down a B57 (s/n 53-3961) near Rahwali by mistake.

So thinking that B57 could not be intercepted, when it has been intercepted many times in past, is a sad joke. .

And space suit tale is again a lie. A B57 crashed in 1965 over black sea due to failure of onboard oxygen generation system suffocating pilots, proving that no spacesuits were issued to pilots.This is in addition to numerous crashes of B57 in which spacesuit has never been recovered. Anyway if B57 would have been capable of doing 80,000 feet, USA would not had made U-2 as their surveillance plane with ceiling of 70,000 feet.

Electronic surveilance B57---called RB57

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Electronic surveilance B57---called RB57

And it does not matter.

1. Even RB57 was withing flight ceiling of Mig-21 and Dvina SAM with India.And instances of RB57 being shot down have been provided in above list. The USAF RB57 shot and damaged while flying a covert mission (s/n 52-1559) during 1965 war, the one shot down over Jamnagar (s/n 53-3943), the one shot down by your own ground fire crew (s/n 53-3961) , the one damaged while being hit flying over Agara, and numerous shot down in Vietnam were RB57 version again proving that it could be easily downed by Migs and Dvina SAM.

Apart from that, the B57 that crashed in Black sea due to failure of OBOG system was a RB57, thus belying the fairytale that pilots wore space suits while operating RB57.

Again had RB57 been capable of flying over 70,000 feet, U-2 would not have been required.



2. Pakistan did not had RB57 in 1971 war. RB57 as in improved RB57 version which was equipped with J57-P-27 engines. Those RB57 used in 1965 were transferred from USAF to PAF and were taken back by USAF (at least those who were left). The reconnaissance version of B57 that were with Pakistan in 1971 were modified B57s, not custom built RB57.

 

[MastanKhan]

And it does not matter.

1. Even RB57 was withing flight ceiling of Mig-21 and Dvina SAM with India.And instances of RB57 being shot down have been provided in above list. The USAF RB57 shot and damaged while flying a covert mission (s/n 52-1559) during 1965 war, the one shot down over Jamnagar (s/n 53-3943), the one shot down by your own ground fire crew (s/n 53-3961) , the one damaged while being hit flying over Agara, and numerous shot down in Vietnam were RB57 version again proving that it could be easily downed by Migs and Dvina SAM.

Apart from that, the B57 that crashed in Black sea due to failure of OBOG system was a RB57, thus belying the fairytale that pilots wore space suits while operating RB57.

Again had RB57 been capable of flying over 70,000 feet, U-2 would not have been required.



2. Pakistan did not had RB57 in 1971 war. RB57 as in improved RB57 version which was equipped with J57-P-27 engines. Those RB57 used in 1965 were transferred from USAF to PAF and were taken back by USAF (at least those who were left). The reconnaissance version of B57 that were with Pakistan in 1971 were modified B57s, not custom built RB57.

You can bash your head against the wall---.

This item has been verified by a retd USAF officer deputed at karachi air base.

 

[randomradio]

2. Pakistan did not had RB57 in 1971 war. RB57 as in improved RB57 version which was equipped with J57-P-27 engines. Those RB57 used in 1965 were transferred from USAF to PAF and were taken back by USAF (at least those who were left). The reconnaissance version of B57 that were with Pakistan in 1971 were modified B57s, not custom built RB57.

The RB-57 Mastan is talking about is the RB-57F. Its service ceiling was 82000 feet.

Two were given to PAF and one was used in the 1965 war. One was in the US for maintenance.

You can bash your head against the wall---.

This item has been verified by a retd USAF officer deputed at karachi air base.

PAF did not have the capability to process the intelligence at the time. Any intelligence it collected was handed over to the US for processing. It is unclear how much of that information was given back to the PAF.

As far as I know, PAF did not have the RB-57 during the 71 war.

 

[MastanKhan]

Enjoy the video:---see how the F35 would utilize the heavy aircraft in a support role.

@Khafee @Irfan Baloch @Windjammer

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi @Armchair

Here is a thread I started a couple of years ago on the 5th gen aircraft---.

If you have not---then enjoy the read.

 

[Armchair]

Hi @Armchair

Here is a thread I started a couple of years ago on the 5th gen aircraft---.

If you have not---then enjoy the read.

Cheers and thanks again