20 states demand secession from US

[jhungary]

I respect your opinion. Problem with America is they have been unconstitutional for quite sometime now. Having already breached several other amendments (1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th). Examples include; cops unlawful conduct during peaceful protests, breaking in without warrant, detaining reporters, TSA refusing rights to have a private search just to name a few. So having UN take away American citizen's guns is merely adding to one of many that was already breached. As soon as the guns gone, taking away the rest would be easy. America will just erode away into a police state. I can understand your frustrations in this regard.

All the stuff you are saying happened to a lot of country, not only in America.

The problem is, does that happen quite a lot or they are just one or two seperate case?

I personally know some Cop that will look into solving the case rather than Civil liberty, but does that mean ALL cops does that??
The final things is, as an American Citizens, i don't oppose most of the stuff you mention except of the TSA ****(Which is actually very annoying) but took away our gun, you will know what will happen.

This is the exact reason why gun will not be taken away from us, or we will become a police state same as China. I am not frustrated or anything. I laugh at the petition, only people don't know anything about the US government will think the petition is of any use or have any indication, i sign on average 10 petition a month, not all the time i support whatever they need to petite about.

===================================

========================

Haven't they spell secede wrong??

 

[jhungary]

Why don't we do this, all stop on dicusing how US will break up and preserve this thread until the year 2032, if the American UNion do break up, then all you pakistani and Chinese or whoever having fun discussing how US will dissolve can mock us American. If the America still remain, we american will point to all youse and laugh at your ignorant? How's that?

 

[gambit]

Secession is precisely what the original 13 American states did by seceding from the British Empire against the will of the British.

If enough people want independence/secession in a certain region (I am not even referring to these petitions, 25,000 doesn't mean much in states with millions of people, nor can it be completely ignored) then at the very least Washington has to address their concerns.

Washington could never forcibly keep a state against its will if the vast majority there wanted independence.

The hypocritical US calls this the right of "self-determination" and encourages it when it breaks up other countries around the world, but somehow this right doesn't extend to American citizens themselves?

Am going to put this as politely as possible but the highlighted is a dumbas$ argument.

- What is a 'nation'?

It is a group of people that shares a common bond. That bond can contain one thing or many things, such as language, history, distinctive culture from the dominant culture, religion, and/or even physical characteristics.

- What is a 'state'?

It is a group of people that exercises some form of political control over the nation.

- What is a 'country'?

It is a geographical locale such as Europe is a country. So is Asia. The word 'country' can be used to include politically recognized borders for which a nation with a state exercises absolute controls over. So Europe is a country that contains many countries. Same for Asia or Africa. The word 'state' can also be used in place of 'country' to mean the same.

A 'nation' can be 'stateless'. The Roma or Gypsies is a stateless (no government) nation. So was global Jewry prior to the establishment of Israel, which is a political entity created in 1949. Viet Nam was a country that once contained two 'states': North Viet Nam and South Viet Nam. Today's Korea contains two 'states': North Korea and South Korea.

The Tibetans may have Chinese blood in them, but there is no doubt they are a distinctive nation from the Chinese nation. Same for the Mongols. The French, Germans, and Italians may have a common genetic and cultural ancestry some time back, but there is no doubt each is a nation in its own right with undeniably distinctive cultures, language, and history, if not genetics.

So when the US, or anyone for that matter, advises 'self determination' for a nation, it is within the contexts of people and statehood as outlined above.

What make the US unique is that the US is country of immigrants, even from its founding. So we can toss out genetics, which is usually the dominant factor in classifying a people from an anthropological perspective. We can strain contexts and call American English as one cultural adhesive for an American nation (people) but no scientists take that seriously. We can try to use cultural distinctiveness because even though there are uniqueness between Texas and New York but people in each culture can easily transplant themselves and be comfortable in their new environments and that both the cowboy and the cityslicker can claim to be proud Americans.

The point is much more complex but for this stupid thread, the point can be distilled down to this: For the US, it is not possible for a group to proclaim 'self determination', unless we want to include the outlier Amish people for this. So in order for a group inside the US and under federal government jurisdiction to demand some sort of self determination, they must be bonded in some other ways and for now, that bond is thru state governments.

 

[Abii]

People in Europe and Canada always say the US has one of the worst democracies in the developed world. There are many reasons. This whole protest just gave the world another reason why the US should not be a role model for developing nations. In a country like Canada it's extremely easy for a province to break from Canada. All you need is a referendum and if the majority vote for freedom then that's it. In fact there have been 2 such referendums in the province of Quebec in previous decades. Can something like this happen in "murica" the land of the free?

lol what a joke.

 

[gambit]

People in Europe and Canada always say the US has one of the worst democracies in the developed world. There are many reasons. This whole protest just gave the world another reason why the US should not be a role model for developing nations. In a country like Canada it's extremely easy for a province to break from Canada. All you need is a referendum and if the majority vote for freedom then that's it. In fact there have been 2 such referendums in the province of Quebec in previous decades. Can something like this happen in "murica" the land of the free?

lol what a joke.

I was in Europe during the Cold War helping to defend the Europeans. The sentiments were much different then. And we did not change since then. So the joke is your argument.

 

[Obambam]

All the stuff you are saying happened to a lot of country, not only in America.

The problem is, does that happen quite a lot or they are just one or two seperate case?

I was merely pointing out to you that America has been at times unconstitutional. It happened before and it will happen again. My guess is that the government is testing the water and to slowly pry away your rights.

I personally know some Cop that will look into solving the case rather than Civil liberty, but does that mean ALL cops does that??

Problem is we have seen far too many cases with cops unleashing violence on peaceful protesters. I can understand these so-called 'peaceful protesters' can be a handful at times, but as cops, they should remain calm and collective regardless.

The final things is, as an American Citizens, i don't oppose most of the stuff you mention except of the TSA ****(Which is actually very annoying) but took away our gun, you will know what will happen.

The revision of America's gun law will undoubtedly hurt all present the gun owners. It's now down to the people to sort this out with the Obama administration. After all it was he who gave it a green light - U.N.'s Arms Control Treaty.

This is the exact reason why gun will not be taken away from us, or we will become a police state same as China.

This applies to majority of Europe as well. It is to ensure the safety of the people. People shouldn't be allowed to pick up rifles and shoot innocent civilians in cinemas or shopping malls.

I am not frustrated or anything. I laugh at the petition, only people don't know anything about the US government will think the petition is of any use or have any indication, i sign on average 10 petition a month, not all the time i support whatever they need to petite about.

You may not be, but many are already frustrated with the government. Hence the sudden rise in numbers of petitions across these states. Having said that I do agree with you on the fact that they are simply wasting their time. Nothing major will come out of this. Not without a fight.

The American government are well aware of what they are doing and have been preparing for such scenarios for a long time. The Canada-U.S. pact and DHS's order for the billion plus rounds are already in place.

Haven't they spell secede wrong??

They did? Shame on them!

 

[jhungary]

People in Europe and Canada always say the US has one of the worst democracies in the developed world. There are many reasons. This whole protest just gave the world another reason why the US should not be a role model for developing nations. In a country like Canada it's extremely easy for a province to break from Canada. All you need is a referendum and if the majority vote for freedom then that's it. In fact there have been 2 such referendums in the province of Quebec in previous decades. Can something like this happen in "murica" the land of the free?

lol what a joke.

A joke is, non-American hating the system of American Democracy.

Even to our own citizen, we would say, love it or leave it, i don't know wha tto say to non-citizens beside F-Off.

Why our political system have to be like by foreigner? This is designed for us and used on us alone, if i say swiss hate the Canadian System, what does that proof? It only proof the swiss should not use the Canadian System. Which they don't and nothing more ...

 

[Obambam]

A joke is, non-American hating the system of American Democracy.

Even to our own citizen, we would say, love it or leave it, i don't know wha tto say to non-citizens beside F-Off.

Why our political system have to be like by foreigner? This is designed for us and used on us alone, if i say swiss hate the Canadian System, what does that proof? It only proof the swiss should not use the Canadian System. Which they don't and nothing more ...

I think you are starting to feel and are expressing the feelings of the Islamic and communist community. The West are often not so happy with the way others are ran. I guess our feelings are mutual in this regard.

 

[jhungary]

I was merely pointing out to you that America has been at times unconstitutional. It happened before and it will happen again. My guess is that the government is testing the water and to slowly pry away your rights.

What you see is the civil liberty infraction time and over again (Yes i did say this happen from time to time) But what you do see is how the authority deal with each and every count of civil liberty infraction, do you know how many people the court set free becuase of "Tinted" Evidence and even if the case is stracked against them? And do you know how many police or politician got the sacked over alleged civil liberty infraction?

As i say, there are time and again the constitution is being violated but as long as you made the amendment to the violation, it's alright, afterall, American is still human and human make mistake.

Problem is we have seen far too many cases with cops unleashing violence on peaceful protesters. I can understand these so-called 'peaceful protesters' can be a handful at times, but as a cop, they should remain calm and collective regardless.

Well, let see it like this, they have the right to protest, and we have the right to arrest them if the protest got out of hand. There are limit on protesting to begin with, you cannot sit infront of a building or place indefinitely and denial the access of those place with the public general.

the revision of America's gun law will undoubtedly hurt all present the gun owners. It's now down to the people to sort this out with the Obama administration. After all it was he who gave it a green light - U.N.'s Arms Control Treaty.

This applies to majority of Europe as well. It is to ensure the safety of the people. People shouldn't be allowed to pick up rifles and shoot innocent civilians in cinemas or shopping malls.

YOu probably misunderstood the ATT under UN Resolution. First of all, it's non-binding. That mean you can sign the resolution but there are no legal power to force you to enforce the ATT on your own country, In the current situation, the ATT needed 2/3 of the senate to pass under the US Constuition, which, unless Obama have some trick up his sleeve, this is not gonna happen.

Second thing is, you misunderstood the ATT and the US gun culture. ATT target illicit trade of small arms. Even NRA said it's OK as long as they do not coverge the rights to bear arms and the snd amendment. The problem is, almost majority of gun owner own their gun legally, with registration and everything, there are only a really small amount of illegal gun own in america (consider how easy to legally own an firearm in US) ATT does not do anything to the Legal owner to begin with. So there are no harm and foul to the majority of gun owner in the US, we will still be able to get our gun, people will not stop us from buying, they just have to make sure the gun falling into the right hand. I will not say people own gun illegally should be permitted to continue to own their weapon, as there are always risk involved.

Having gun and using them on a shoping mall is two different business, you don't see those people shoot people everyday, if you have to say this is a problem for gun control, look at places like the UK and Australia, even with strict gun control (I live in Australia and i know the gun law there) you will still see British man killing 2 Policewomen with grenade and small arms (You should know what i am referring to) or a Chinese student gun down professor Melbourne with a pistol.

Have or have no gun control, these kind of problem will still exist in society, i am not gonna debate these with you today.

You may not be, but many are already frustrated with the government. Hence the sudden rise in numbers of petitions across these states. Having said that I do agree with you on the fact that they are simply wasting their time. Nothing major will come out of this. Not without a fight.

Well, there are dissatification amoung citizens in every country, even if there are 10 million who sign those petition does not mean anything (As non Citizen can also sign them) the problem is, does that mean there are 10 million people who are unsatisified with our government, no.

Even 10 million people did not approve our government, it not any news actually, we have alreayd know there are 59 million did not vote for Obama. That did not mean anything. People quite generally see oh, there are 10 million who don't agree on us or want to leave the union, if i were obama, all i will do is to cancel their US Citizenship, if you want to go? Then go. Will there be any really secession in place is not what you can see from the population YOu cannot topple a government by signing a petition, we did not sign petition in 1865 civil war, if the citizens really fed up with the government, they don't sign petition, they fight.

The American government are well aware of what they are doing and have been preparing for such scenarios for a long time. The Canada-U.S. pact and DHS's order for the billion plus rounds are already in place.

well, i don't see how these are related, maybe US-Mexico pact are signed is to counter a threat from within too? Or a Anglo-US pact? or an ANZUS pact? or the Japanese-American mutual defensive pact? That did not proof anything.

They did? Shame on them! :lol

they did

 

[jhungary]

I think you are starting to feel and are expressing the feelings of the Islamic and communist community. The West are often not so happy with the way others are ran. I guess our feelings are mutual in this regard.

This is the common misconception of why US starting war with other country.

We invaded Iraq, and we occupied Iraq and we withdrew from IRaq, did we change the Islamic ruling to Protestant/Christianity ruling? No, we don't change people believe and we don't believe in forcing people to believe in our own system.

People keep coming to us and say why you like to poke your nose in someone else mess. The problem is, we don't force our believe via war like the Crusader do in the 14 century, i mean how, if we oursleve have people coming from different culture and religion, how do they force people to some system or religon they don't believe in the first place?

This isn't 14 century anymore, anyone who link war to religion deserved to be shot.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

What is all the hubbub in here? This talk of secession is nothing more than a bunch of guys blowing their steam off. The US will still be around for the foreseeable future.

The state that are more likely to leave are Texas & Vermont, but I still don't see them leaving the union for good. Even if they leave the Union doesn't mean they will leave your "Sphere of Influence" Take the the Former Soviet Union for example. Russia still have friendly ties toward the former Satellite republics (with the exception of Georgia) this talk of separatism will just blow over as the time passes.

 

[gambit]

It is to ensure the safety of the people. People shouldn't be allowed to pick up rifles and shoot innocent civilians in cinemas or shopping malls.

As if mindless shooting is the only thing guns are used for.

Pregnant Woman With Shotgun Thwarts Burglars « CBS Minnesota

COON RAPIDS, Minn. (WCCO) — It’s the last thing two burglary suspects expected to hear when they broke into a Coon Rapids home. From within the house came the unmistakable sound of a pump shotgun. At the other end of that gun was a 22-year-old woman who is nine weeks pregnant.

St. Paul woman pins burglary suspect, daughter holds gun until police arrive - TwinCities.com

Maybe he thought it would be an easy grab: an unlocked door, a purse on the kitchen table.

But before suspected burglar Marty Mark Childs could get away, a woman who lived at the St. Paul house angrily demanded to know why he was there.

She forced him to the floor, knelt on his back and called for her daughter -- who held Childs at gunpoint until police arrived.

The sad part for your criticism is that there are far more instances of gun owners defending themselves against criminals than there are sensationalized public shootings. I am a gun owner/shooter for all of my adult life and have a concealed carry permit and actually discouraged a couple of low lifes from whatever it was they were planning with only a hint of what I carried. Heck, probably am a better marksman than any PLA trooper.

 

[gambit]

Problem is we have seen far too many cases with cops unleashing violence on peaceful protesters. I can understand these so-called 'peaceful protesters' can be a handful at times, but as cops, they should remain calm and collective regardless.

If they turned 'handful', then they are not peaceful.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

If they turned 'handful', then they are not peaceful.

Not to the point the 5-0s have to use Taser & Pepper spray.

 

[Obambam]

What you see is the civil liberty infraction time and over again (Yes i did say this happen from time to time) But what you do see is how the authority deal with each and every count of civil liberty infraction, do you know how many people the court set free becuase of "Tinted" Evidence and even if the case is stracked against them? And do you know how many police or politician got the sacked over alleged civil liberty infraction?

True, but it still does not change the fact that nothing is being done to prevent police brutality. They are only getting more power to abuse civilian rights. For instance the cops can now smash your door down if you do not answer within a minute or if they don't call out "I'll be there!". Whatever you do, do not remain silent or flush the toilet, they can break down the door due to their suspicious belief that you are "'Suspicious'. All this can now be done without warrant. Which contradicts the 4th Amendment.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/17/nation/la-na-court-search-20110517

As i say, there are time and again the constitution is being violated but as long as you made the amendment to the violation, it's alright, afterall, American is still human and human make mistake.

It is not just about "making amendment" they have to enforce and adhere to the law - preventing similar cases from happening.

Well, let see it like this, they have the right to protest, and we have the right to arrest them if the protest got out of hand. There are limit on protesting to begin with, you cannot sit infront of a building or place indefinitely and denial the access of those place with the public general.

It doesn't stop the cops cornering the protesters and falsely claiming that they are blocking the pavements and spraying them does it? I think some of the laws are too losely defined and are often taken advantage of by the cops. Does this not interfere with their freedom of speech and protest?

YOu probably misunderstood the ATT under UN Resolution. First of all, it's non-binding. That mean you can sign the resolution but there are no legal power to force you to enforce the ATT on your own country, In the current situation, the ATT needed 2/3 of the senate to pass under the US Constuition, which, unless Obama have some trick up his sleeve, this is not gonna happen.

We will just have to see about that. I'm sure he knows what he is doing, it was one of the things on top of his list to be done after winning the election.

Second thing is, you misunderstood the ATT and the US gun culture. ATT target illicit trade of small arms.

New mechanisms can be agreed upon, meaning it does not apply only on small arms.

Even NRA said it's OK as long as they do not coverge the rights to bear arms and the snd amendment. The problem is, almost majority of gun owner own their gun legally, with registration and everything, there are only a really small amount of illegal gun own in america (consider how easy to legally own an firearm in US) ATT does not do anything to the Legal owner to begin with. So there are no harm and foul to the majority of gun owner in the US, we will still be able to get our gun, people will not stop us from buying, they just have to make sure the gun falling into the right hand. I will not say people own gun illegally should be permitted to continue to own their weapon, as there are always risk involved.

Then this man's belief and how he gave the ATT a green light should not be of concern to all these gun and wannabe gun owners:

Having gun and using them on a shoping mall is two different business, you don't see those people shoot people everyday

If you allow that to happen then something is seriously wrong with your country.

if you have to say this is a problem for gun control, look at places like the UK and Australia, even with strict gun control (I live in Australia and i know the gun law there) you will still see British man killing 2 Policewomen with grenade and small arms (You should know what i am referring to) or a Chinese student gun down professor Melbourne with a pistol.

There is a reason why America is right up there in gun related crimes compared to places like UK and Australia.
Japan is the perfect example of a functional society without guns backed by low rates of gun crime:

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

Have or have no gun control, these kind of problem will still exist in society, i am not gonna debate these with you today.

It will undoubtedly still exist, but that is not the point here. The point is to significantly reduce the levels of gun related crimes.

Well, there are dissatification amoung citizens in every country, even if there are 10 million who sign those petition does not mean anything (As non Citizen can also sign them) the problem is, does that mean there are 10 million people who are unsatisified with our government, no.

It could be more, but you never know. not everyone have access to computers at home. For instance people living in the streets, victims of Hurricane Sandy who are still being denied power, not to mention ones who are simply to lazy to do anything about it. Moreover the White House has to give the public an answer when each petition reaches a certain threshold. In this case it is around the 25k mark. This is happening across 20 plus states. Which is a clear indicator that something is not right and something needs to be done.

Even 10 million people did not approve our government, it not any news actually, we have alreayd know there are 59 million did not vote for Obama. That did not mean anything. People quite generally see oh, there are 10 million who don't agree on us or want to leave the union, if i were obama, all i will do is to cancel their US Citizenship, if you want to go? Then go.

Perhaps he will do just that, but it may not go down without a fight. With guns people can fight for their freedom, but not without guns. Perhaps this is the true reason why Obama wants guns out of the streets and be in the hands of the military.

Will there be any really secession in place is not what you can see from the population YOu cannot topple a government by signing a petition, we did not sign petition in 1865 civil war, if the citizens really fed up with the government, they don't sign petition, they fight.

Of course you can't. It is merely an apparatus allowing them to let off some steam. Problem is, the government now have the intention to take away their guns. What exactly can the unarmed do against the military?

It will be another repeat of the South Korean "5.18 Gwangju Democratization Movement".

well, i don't see how these are related, maybe US-Mexico pact are signed is to counter a threat from within too? Or a Anglo-US pact? or an ANZUS pact? or the Japanese-American mutual defensive pact? That did not proof anything.

I don't blame you as there is little coverage of this:

North American Military Agreement Signed by the U.S. and Canada | Global Research

In a political move that received little if any attention by the American news media, the United States and Canada entered into a military agreement on February 14, 2008, allowing the armed forces from one nation to support the armed forces of the other nation during a domestic civil emergency

they did

At least he got the number of letters right

This is the common misconception of why US starting war with other country.

We invaded Iraq, and we occupied Iraq and we withdrew from IRaq, did we change the Islamic ruling to Protestant/Christianity ruling? No, we don't change people believe and we don't believe in forcing people to believe in our own system.

People keep coming to us and say why you like to poke your nose in someone else mess. The problem is, we don't force our believe via war like the Crusader do in the 14 century, i mean how, if we oursleve have people coming from different culture and religion, how do they force people to some system or religon they don't believe in the first place?

This isn't 14 century anymore, anyone who link war to religion deserved to be shot.

It's not about the West forcing them to change religion, it is them toppling their government and implementing the so called "democratic" system. Each country, like you said, should have its own rights to govern in ways they deem fit. Not by arming separatists, calling them freedom fighters and helping them destroy a country.