20+ Pakistani Soldiers killed in Suicide attack in North Waziristan.

[lightoftruth]

first thing the next govt of pakistan should do is an army operation in north waziristan.

 

[Amaa'n]

If PA cant protect their soldiers,its better to pull out than let them die like this.
More soldiers die n tribal areas than terrorists....
The Brits left them alone...even Changez khan left those tribals alone,why cant Pakistan just leave them alone?
Is it worth it to try this hard to keep people with such violent mentality?
Tribal mind just thinks of vengence...
You never know which one of them will make it the purpose of their sad life to kill you,just because you looked at his woman froma distance or entered his village without permission.

So many sacrifices may have been worth it if the area was of any use..
But all they got is dry mountains and unruly murderous tribes...
PA should change strategy,pull out,let the tribals have their love story with Afghanistan or drones,and PA should keep the border between tribal areas and civilized Pakistan secure....
Its normal for a tribal to threaten you of murder with bullet,on trivial things,and they kill on simple arguments....and brag about it.
The last time i had an argument with a 'koki khel',the conversation ended up with him threatening me ''Hum tou goulii sey baat khertha haiy'',and i realized i am talking to a useless brute,and better keep away.
That way resources will be saved and lives of soldiers,and all the garbage will remain in tribal areas than coming into and polluting the rest of the country.

Sorry to say Safriz bro but I do not agree with your point of view, you looking towards north west, I want you to turn around and look North east (Siachen), we all know how much that is costing us, why are we not pulling out from there , just leave the post to indians?

In the same way we cannot leave that region, if we can't control it does it mean we should leave it? and who said we can't? we can, just lack the willingness and the strategy, Taliban can make that region there stronghold,

 

[Ayush]

You dont need to 'brain wash' a tribal to make him go kill somebody.

uhhh,i personally dont agree with that generalisation..of course they might be a bit rough,but that doesnt make them killers..

 

[Amaa'n]

So according to you this is endemic to their (tribal) culture or ethos itself? The tribal regions seem to be more dead set for the establishment of theocratic rule. What would you attribute this sort of ant-state mentality to?

it is there code of ethics, their code of conduct, their culture, their tradition, their mentality, call it whatever you want, but as Safriz said you don't need to brainwash a tribal to kill, Pathan ke Haath gayi tou Haat gayi....

 

[NALANDA]

1) A powerful person in control (alas no Civilains) and so maybe Musharaf is a good bet.
2) Let Afghanistan handle itself and no interference there.
3) No place of religion ( genesis of the problem) in running country. No laws, rules etc to protect religion. Islam is not in danger in Pakistan so chill. These specials rules only give power to Mullah etc.
4) Economy, economy and economy. ( be a Baniya like India).
5) Peace with India and some big alliance between India, China and Paksitan ( enough of these nonsense amongst us). Let no foreigner interefere in our region.
6) Kashmir on back burner the way India and China has kept land issues on back burner.

 

[Dillinger]

it is there code of ethics, their code of conduct, their culture, their tradition, their mentality, call it whatever you want, but as Safriz said you don't need to brainwash a tribal to kill, Pathan ke Haath gayi tou Haat gayi....

But you cannot leave them to adjudicate on their own, specially in a region as sensitive as your bordering areas with Afghanistan. We keep hearing about air strikes in Orakzai and other places but where are the PA's ground dominance patrols bringing the law of the land into these regions. If they are not integrated then they'll continue to be used as shelter by anti-state elements well after the Afghan issue is settled. As long as there is vacuum there with regard to who is the ultimate authority, someone or the other will snatch power and their interests may not align with the broader interests of Pakistan.

Any chance the PA will seriously think of concerted and repeated ground ops in the area till the menace is eradicated?

 

[Amaa'n]

But you cannot leave them to adjudicate on their own, specially in a region as sensitive as your bordering areas with Afghanistan. We keep hearing about air strikes in Orakzai and other places but where are the PA's ground dominance patrols bringing the law of the land into these regions.

Tribes have there own tribal system in place, there own Jirgas, if they had to follow Law of the Land they would have done it long ago, it has nothing to do with Religion but its the Culture and Traditions and the history, even in the british era Tribes were left on there own with Afghanistan, and if i recall correctly, British signed an agreement to keep there hands away from this region. I am not a pushtun or a tribal so can't comment on it further

If they are not integrated then they'll continue to be used as shelter by anti-state elements well after the Afghan issue is settled. As long as there is vacuum there with regard to who is the ultimate authority, someone or the other will snatch power and their interests may not align with the broader interests of Pakistan.

As I said they have there own system in place, if they don't follow Pakistani Law that does not mean they will jump on the bandwagon with Taliban, heck they don't even let other Tribes interfer in their own matters, they have there own militias, who often fight along PA and intelligence agencies. They will continue to do so as long as we don't stab them in the back.

Any chance the PA will seriously think of concerted and repeated ground ops in the area till the menace is eradicated?

the way things are going I don't see it happening any soon, not in Tribal areas, Targeted operations are carried out in Karachi, to level out the playing field for peaceful elections, we go into Tribal areas now and we will have a mess at our hands, because during election, security will be needed inside the cities.

 

[ResurgentIran]

What good is the army if it cant even control it's own territory. Pull out and do what? You keep pulling out and the hostile territory keeps increasing. The only solution pak now has is to take on the terrorists head on wipe them off like sri lanka did. Stop using terrorists for having strategic depth as it only comes back to haunt you. "Good" taliban, "bad" taliban, LeT, "non-state actors" etc all will at one point will bite the hand which fed them. The sooner pak realises this, the better it would be for the region.

Imo what is really inducing the extremism even further now, is the precense of American drones, doing lethal strikes. Supposedly to take out the extremists, but it is having the exact opposite effect. There have been outcries in Pakistani public because of these drones, and unfortunately extremism in on the rise (rather on decline).
The reason the taliban (or whomever commited this act) attack soldiers, is because they are seen as a representation of their government, which have allowed and given America the green light to drop bombs on them, from predator drones.

American troops and killer drones should just pull out now. Their precense are making matters worse so they should withdraw and let the Pakistani security apparatus handle their internal problems.
Im positive in the long term, that Pakistan will be more secure if they follow this plan.

 

[Safriz]

Sorry to say Safriz bro but I do not agree with your point of view, you looking towards north west, I want you to turn around and look North east (Siachen), we all know how much that is costing us, why are we not pulling out from there , just leave the post to indians?

In the same way we cannot leave that region, if we can't control it does it mean we should leave it? and who said we can't? we can, just lack the willingness and the strategy, Taliban can make that region there stronghold,

Thats hardly any comparison.
Siachen is being taken over by a foreign army hence PA fighting.
The 'people' of tribal areas fighting against PA and thats why leave it to the people living there....specially due to the type of people and land....
No development work can be done there,and the area has nothing to offer...
Thats why my opinion that is it worth it? Losing so many soldiers and spending so much defence budget on people who themselves want to live a backward unruly life.

Here we see FWO being attacked for the 'crime' of building a road.
And this isnt an isolated insident.
Proves the point that the tribals dont want to change and dont want development...
You can get shot in the head there by 'staring' at a tribal woman or other trivial things and the people and area been the same since the pterodactile used to fly...
Hence my opinion.

 

[SEAL]

When you call an incomplete mission a success these things will continue to happen.

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعون

 

[Dillinger]

@Hyperion What is your opinion, Dawn is reporting that the toll is now at 22. Is it truly just about tribal customs and culture- with context to the tribal opposition to PA ops that is- not in context of the wider terrorist/proxy threat?

 

[jaibi]

I'm going to go out and state an alternative view. See, the loss of life is huge, rest in peace to the Pakistani soldiers. However, is this a due weakening in the PA? I disagree. See the thing is that the terrain is extremely hostile and difficult for a long term military presence against an undefinable foe. Secondly, increase military action is a sign of weakening the superstructure (See: Cohen on Soviet Russia). The same applies here: the superstructure that supports the Talibs has been weakened, the ususal response is a desperate push into hostilities (Battle of the Bulge). I'm not proposing that the Talibs are on their knees but it's not the other case either.

Plus, I'd like to inform readers suggesting that the tribals should be left alone are wrong: they do not want that! I talked with the former Rhodes Scholar and Fullbright scholar Hazrat Wali and others from this area and their view was that the negligence of the FATA area has cost the Pakistani people. They want the govt. to haul in development programmes and aim for wider political integration where the tribals can have more say and feel more affects of being Pakistani.

 

[Gryphon]

TTP is desperate .. It has lost Bajaur & Mohamand Completely .. In Kurram , it is present only in Central division , In Orakzai, it is present in central & Upper divisions, In Khyber, it exists in Bara Tehsil & Tirah Valley only. In South Waziristan & North Waziristan , it is present only in hilly areas not under control of Military & Bahawal Khan/Hafiz Gul Bahadur ... They are attacking only to show that they aren't week .. Military/Civilian casualties have come down by 25 % in 2012 .. To increase that percentage in 2013 ,, it is time to pack TTP leaders to hell ...

 

[muse]

The patheticism, the useless almost non-existant response we see whenever such an attack takes place on our heroes (our Pak fauj jawans) really dampens any hope I have of seeing this militancy quashed. I mean just look at the lack of response here. North Waziristan was never a real threat to Pakistan... the real issue was within South Waziristan which is a TTP bastion. From there this ragged bunch of terrorists have expanded all over Pakistan and now have a foot in tirah (mamozai mainly) where fighting continues between the army/ansarulislam/tribal militia and the TTP/LI

Today an average fighter for the Taliban is being paid Rs 20,000 monthly while the average policeman recieves barely half that figure.

I don't know if anyone notices but for the past few days we Pakistanis have been braving almost constant bombings and attacks. I haven't heard of even one arrest regarding these but boy are we good at running after innocent people. We blew it in FATA. I really hope Imran Khan comes and repeals the black law-the notorious collective responsibilities act.

Can we all agree that our security forces's training is not what it should be? After all, how many of these attacks have to happen before we can say that we need some serious help -- Always we hear the line from senior officers that it is not that they do not value the lives of their men but that they do things as cheaply as possible - friends, is this not the same as devaluing the lives of brave men and women who choose to serve their nation and state?

Better pay may attract better recruits, but these recruits are not born, they are made by their training and their devotion to duty expressed in the value they place in the lives of their compatriots.

 

[474474]

are you out of your mind ???
leave them alone so they blow up all other Pakistanis ????
what about the lives of the people of Pakistan ????
and do you still believe that the tribals will have love story with afghanistan and the drones ???? look at who is suffering, what is their demand and want (as it all lies in PAKISTAN)

let me give you an example : "u got trash in your home, you are a responsible person in your home, now u will have to take an action to throw it out in order to get rid of that smell and prevent others from getting sick in your house, u are not supposed to give up and start puffing an air freshener around your whole house to get rid of it because it will still stink, no matter how many cans of air freshener you buy and use up, and if its a huge mess you wont be able to clear it all up in one day it will take time, you may get scratches or wounds too but at the end of the job you will be happy and satisfied, and at the same time hope to clear things up before they get out of hand"

there is dirt and ***** every where its our job to clean it up as its our home you cant dump you own home claiming its ******, instead you get rid of the ***** present in it and live it up again

now the process here is that they are still clearing it up,

so best of luck to PA

It's better to seal these guys with barbed wire fences (take the women and children out firszt) and use it as a third buffer country between afghanistan