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2 years in jail, Rs500,000 fine for mocking Pakistani forces as amendment bill passed

IMO whether or not allegations of army meddling are bad for democracy, is a subject that is open to debate, and broadly depends on whether you lend any credence to such notions. However, this particular bill is undoubtedly an affront to that same democracy. If the motivation behind the bill is to protect the reputation of our democracy, then an old Vietnam era protest quip comes to mind: "bombing for peace is like [fornicating] for virginity".
Lets make clear that there is NO evidence the Army itself pushed this bill, and I don't support it, and I doubt it will actually become law.

The Army, if anything, has acted with extreme restraint even in its public messaging even when confronted with the kind of rhetoric the PTM and Sharifs have directed at them.

That said, my comment about when our chattering classes will stop attacking the Army remains a valid one. Army interference has become the go-to excuse for the PMLN & PPP (and their supporters) to justify lack of performance. The PTI, despite struggling severely since it came into power, has not once tried to deflect the blame onto the Army and Imran Khan has taken responsibility for every decision, good or bad, made by his government.

It is our chattering classes that just cannot seem to stop rumor mongering - Asad Umar removed & Hafeez Shaikh brought in because of Army. Hafeez Shaikh removed because of Army. Tareen coming, going or becoming non-binary because of Army.

Seriously - its a fucking shit-show when it comes to our media, and this absolutely has a negative impact on democracy because no one is actually bothering with critical analysis and educating the masses on the issues facing Pakistan through the media platforms they have.
 
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Terrible law. The military should not support this. This will not help them in the slightest bit and further drive a wedge between people and her institution. Such laws have never worked in any setting, and if anything further weakens the institution.

Pakistanis in every walk of life lack accountability. You will rarely ever find a Pakistani that admits to being wrong because they have a super ego. And they are quick to pass the buck as well. Instead of providing any accountability for their shortcomings they quickly try to find a scapegoat.

This nation requires serious introspection and instead of encouraging it, the government is passings bills to the people so that they can continue being sheep with their eyes closed.
 
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I can't disagree more vehemently. The military, or anyone for that matter, has no right to curb any criticism, right or wrong, against it. Criticism is the right of every Pakistani and the only tool to steer the ship which has been beached by this very corrupt institute multiple times. It is literally the only tool any society has to progress. This is a pathetic attempt made on the shoulders of morons sitting on public seats to give this corrupt institute a free hand to continue with its corruption. The same corruption which has damaged democracy in Pakistan infinitely more than the criticism against it combined with all the politicians. They need to march back to the barracks and take care of what I pay them to.

We already had the rabid Mullah who would kill you for criticizing him, now we have the cowards in uniform afraid of words as well.
Poor choice of words on my part about 'controls on allegations about the Army interfering with politics'.

Please see my last post for clarification. These allegations, in my view, are a massive problem, but I have no solution either in terms of 'controls', and as I said in my first post on this thread, I don't support measures such as the bill in question.
now we have the cowards in uniform afraid of words as well.
Completely unnecessary and uncalled for - there is no evidence the Army is behind this bill and the Army has acted with a lot of restraint against the kinds of slurs and abuse directed at it from groups like the PTM and PMLN, to the point where the Army has been called 'cowards' for not reacting strongly by other members on THIS forum

So you and the other members should sit down and figure out what you actually want, because between the two sides, the Army gets called 'cowards' for not interfering in politics and not taking action against abuse directed at it, and gets called 'cowards' because some XYZ legislator moves a bill of this kind on their own volition.

FYI, moving such a bill is the right of the legislator. Voting the bill into law is the right of the legislature. The courts overturning such a bill on the grounds of being un-constitutional is the right of the courts.
 
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I say, public opinion is the soul of democracy. It is this opinion that makes or breaks governments and gives feedback to the ruling party and even the opposition to keep train on tracks.

But I would also say, there is a strong propaganda against armed forces, especially by the media. Soft power is being used to undermine the morale of soldiers. One does not care what an outsider says, but it really matters when your own people blame you or try to discredit you for your efforts in defending the country.
 
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I say, public opinion is the soul of democracy. It is this opinion that makes or breaks governments and gives feedback to the ruling party and even the opposition to keep train on tracks.

But I would also say, there is a strong propaganda against armed forces, especially by the media. Soft power is being used to undermine the morale of soldiers. One does not care what an outsider says, but it really matters when your own people blame you or try to discredit you for your efforts in defending the country.

Army should have their own media wing that challenges other media outlets against slander and propaganda. Instead government is trying to provide a safe space for the institution. There should be no safe spaces for anyone in Pakistan. Everyone should be held accountable for what they do, just like we as Muslims will be held accountable for every one of our deeds.

Being a man or woman is about being responsible. It’s time Pakistanis started to behave as adults instead of children.
 
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Army should have their own media wing that challenges other media outlets against slander and propaganda.
Yes Sir, ISPR is already there.
And I am not saying public opinion should be silenced.
All I am saying is the propaganda machines need to be checked through this bill.
 
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Lets make clear that there is NO evidence the Army itself pushed this bill, and I don't support it, and I doubt it will actually become law.

The Army, if anything, has acted with extreme restraint even in its public messaging even when confronted with the kind of rhetoric the PTM and Sharifs have directed at them.

That said, my comment about when our chattering classes will stop attacking the Army remains a valid one. Army interference has become the go-to excuse for the PMLN & PPP (and their supporters) to justify lack of performance. The PTI, despite struggling severely since it came into power, has not once tried to deflect the blame onto the Army and Imran Khan has taken responsibility for every decision, good or bad, made by his government.

It is our chattering classes that just cannot seem to stop rumor mongering - Asad Umar removed & Hafeez Shaikh brought in because of Army. Hafeez Shaikh removed because of Army. Tareen coming, going or becoming non-binary because of Army.

Seriously - its a fucking shit-show when it comes to our media, and this absolutely has a negative impact on democracy because no one is actually bothering with critical analysis and educating the masses on the issues facing Pakistan through the media platforms they have.

Part in bold, if you lend any credence to the army meddling conspiracies, which you don't of course, within the internal consistency of that conspiracy, it would make perfect sense for PTI not to target the force that has helped keep them in power.

But please give it a decade, senior folks from PTI's own ranks or maybe even IK himself, will eventually decry their role. When the current guard leaves, the conduct of the current crop can be at least quietly admitted if not publicly scrutinized. No serving general is ever a political player, but a lot of retired generals during their tenure had been king makers in retrospect.
 
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What would Mastan Sir do?
Aray bhai woh toh Amreeka mein hain.

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Those in Pakistan on the other hand:

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To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize
- Kevin Alfred Strom
off-topic comment, but here I go:
"Kevin Alfred Strom (born August 17, 1956) is an American white nationalist, neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier white separatist, and associate editor of National Vanguard."
this quote was previously falsely attributed Voltaire. thanks for putting the correct attribution.
 
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Actually this can easily be circumnavigated.

Example

I love my country and its men and women in uniform. However, some bad apples are in the military. And Pakistan needs to get rid of them to make our excellent armed forces even better and stronger

See.
 
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Please see my last post for clarification. These allegations, in my view, are a massive problem, but I have no solution either in terms of 'controls', and as I said in my first post on this thread, I don't support measures such as the bill in question.

Never thought you would. I know you better than that.

Just frustrated at the continued and willing fall of the country and its people towards obvious disasters. So please don't take any of what I'm about to say as directed towards you.

Lets make clear that there is NO evidence the Army itself pushed this bill, and I don't support it, and I doubt it will actually become law.
Completely unnecessary and uncalled for - there is no evidence the Army is behind this bill

C'mon, brother. We both know how it works. We both know how the military does its bidding. There is no other way this could have ever existed.

The Army, if anything, has acted with extreme restraint even in its public messaging even when confronted with the kind of rhetoric the PTM and Sharifs have directed at them.
and the Army has acted with a lot of restraint against the kinds of slurs and abuse directed at it from groups like the PTM and PMLN, to the point where the Army has been called 'cowards' for not reacting strongly by other members on THIS forum
So you and the other members should sit down and figure out what you actually want, because between the two sides, the Army gets called 'cowards' for not interfering in politics and not taking action against abuse directed at it, and gets called 'cowards' because some XYZ legislator moves a bill of this kind on their own volition.

And that criticism, right or wrong, is a sacred right of every Pakistani. They are subject to that criticism as is their duty. They have no right to not exercise restraint. Let us not forget that it is this criticism which has removed the treasonous rule of military usurpers three times already. The mighty generals are afraid of words now? They should use their own then. And have they not? Have they not pushed us pills of their greatness? Of them being the only bulwark defending the country against all these corrupt civilians? With song and dance? While constructing the most elaborate network of corruption in the country themselves? Removing and installing politicians like Lego pieces? Usurping the country on a whim? The military's power and authority is by my allowance. It is subject to you and I. And it will take whatever criticism we throw at it.

Let's be very frank here. The military's involvement in the country's affairs today is predominantly self-serving and corrupt. They have eroded their goodwill themselves. It was not what some politician said. They have come out of their barracks and wrapped their corrupt tentacles around every thing in the country. The politician didn't ask them to, you and I didn't ask them to. In fact, they had no right to. They will receive the kind of rhetoric that PTM (which is a foreign funded propaganda tool) and Sharifs have directed at them, it is their own doing.

That said, my comment about when our chattering classes will stop attacking the Army remains a valid one. Army interference has become the go-to excuse for the PMLN & PPP (and their supporters) to justify lack of performance.

They will stop attacking the Army when it goes back to its barracks. If they want to embed themselves everywhere then this is what it comes with. The Generals have had more than their fair share of ruining the country. They have literally supported, abetted, enabled, and enforced treason 3 times. There is a reason you see an incompetent retired officer everywhere you look today. Now they are complaining? Of criticism? By politicians? And these men are supposed to fight nuclear wars?

The PTI, despite struggling severely since it came into power, has not once tried to deflect the blame onto the Army and Imran Khan has taken responsibility for every decision, good or bad, made by his government.

It is our chattering classes that just cannot seem to stop rumor mongering - Asad Umar removed & Hafeez Shaikh brought in because of Army. Hafeez Shaikh removed because of Army. Tareen coming, going or becoming non-binary because of Army

He's been throwing it at the parties before him. The Army is his benefactor, he won't bite the hand that feeds him, not yet. Nawaz did not do it for the longest time either and for the exact same reason. The chattering classes are operating well within their rights, no matter how idiotic they may be. That is the very point of our freedom of expression; to sift out the idiotic noise.

Seriously - its a fucking shit-show when it comes to our media, and this absolutely has a negative impact on democracy because no one is actually bothering with critical analysis and educating the masses on the issues facing Pakistan through the media platforms they have.

A shit-show of words that should be answered with words. This censorship is aimed exactly at curbing the critical analysis and the education of the masses. Freedom of speech is the very corner stone of democracy, education, critical analysis, and progress. No good has ever come from curbing it.

FYI, moving such a bill is the right of the legislator. Voting the bill into law is the right of the legislature. The courts overturning such a bill on the grounds of being un-constitutional is the right of the courts.

And it is my right to call out every such legislator who is pushing the defiling of my constitutional and God given right at the behest of a corrupt and self-serving entity.

ps: This is exactly how an authoritarian, usurping, regressive, and/or extremist entity forces its will. Be it the blasphemy laws, CAB, or the "free and fair" elections that made presidents out of Ayub, Zia, and Musharraf.
 
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