$2.4bn Kohala hydropower deal finalised

[MastanKhan]

Correct your typing, spelling, and punctuation.



Stop blaming other posters because you can not understand logic. More such posts will get you banned.

How about his screen name----!!!!

 

[zip]

There is no comparison even if initially tariff is higher then expected for hydro power. Anyway Pakistan will import electricity from Tajikistan at 5 cent per unit.

CASA-1000 project: Pakistan, Tajikistan agree on electricity tariff – The Express Tribune

Wrong info

 

[zip]

For 1000mw day or 24 million units of electricity govt should pay 1.9 million usd per day ..thats 690 million dollars per year ..

Technology is simple ..men and material is there but we subcontinent people are so lazy and poor in management that some one else has to put right materials at right place and gain profit on natural power of our nations ..

 

[Chak Bamu]

How about his screen name----!!!!

I've seen worse. One thing at a time, sir.

For 1000mw day or 24 million units of electricity govt should pay 1.9 million usd per day ..thats 690 million dollars per year ..

Technology is simple ..men and material is there but we subcontinent people are so lazy and poor in management that some one else has to put right materials at right place and gain profit on natural power of our nations ..

Pakistanis are generally aggressive, not lazy. Our problems tend to be a little different than yours.

LONG LIVE KALABAGH DAM.

Please use proper punctuation. When you use all CAPS, it seems as though you are SHOUTING. It is normal politeness.

 

[zip]

I've seen worse. One thing at a time, sir.



Pakistanis are generally aggressive, not lazy. Our problems tend to be a little different than yours.



Please use proper punctuation. When you use all CAPS, it seems as though you are SHOUTING. It is normal politeness.

Good for you ..5093 gwh production per year ..thats 5093 million units of energy ..simply means for a rupee of loan you have to pay 20 paisa in 30 installments ..if thats not a lazy mans deal then its really good for you..

 

[Viper0011.]

The installed capacity is over 21,000 MW Sir.

Please provide proofs of the current capacity to 21,000 MW. I'd like to see it. This capacity may be on "paper" through future "expansions" but there is no such thing as the current system able to produce anything beyond 12,000 MW and that's also peak performance, meaning 24*7 operation.
There are no current plans for any expansion, it is hard as is for the gov't to pay the bills for Thermal production. The only expansions being done are on Mangla, Tarbeela and on other Hydro projects which is the right direction and the cheapest method to produce electricity and save water (and lessen floods in the long run).

Me too, I have lost confidence in the words of pakistani government and media, the verification from chinese sources is indeed necessary.

There are threads on here that show you the work being done, the progress being made in pictures. Ask @cb4 . He was kind enough to send me a few links yesterday. You have to be blind not to see projects and work being done in colored pictures ( and they are authentic and I am sure IK's supporters will think they are photo shopped or pictures of projects being worked on at Mars)

For first 12 years its 8.9 cent, after that 5.1 cent for 18 years.

I asked for a link, not personal estimation please....

 

[Kabira]

Please provide proofs of the current capacity to 21,000 MW. I'd like to see it. This capacity may be on "paper" through future "expansions" but there is no such thing as the current system able to produce anything beyond 12,000 MW and that's also peak performance, meaning 24*7 operation.
There are no current plans for any expansion, it is hard as is for the gov't to pay the bills for Thermal production. The only expansions being done are on Mangla, Tarbeela and on other Hydro projects which is the right direction and the cheapest method to produce electricity and save water (and lessen floods in the long run).



There are threads on here that show you the work being done, the progress being made in pictures. Ask @cb4 . He was kind enough to send me a few links yesterday. You have to be blind not to see projects and work being done in colored pictures ( and they are authentic and I am sure IK's supporters will think they are photo shopped or pictures of projects being worked on at Mars)



I asked for a link, not personal estimation please....

Link is in first page, OP.

 

[VCheng]

Please provide proofs of the current capacity to 21,000 MW. I'd like to see it. This capacity may be on "paper" through future "expansions" but there is no such thing as the current system able to produce anything beyond 12,000 MW and that's also peak performance, meaning 24*7 operation.
There are no current plans for any expansion, it is hard as is for the gov't to pay the bills for Thermal production. The only expansions being done are on Mangla, Tarbeela and on other Hydro projects which is the right direction and the cheapest method to produce electricity and save water (and lessen floods in the long run).



There are threads on here that show you the work being done, the progress being made in pictures. Ask @cb4 . He was kind enough to send me a few links yesterday. You have to be blind not to see projects and work being done in colored pictures ( and they are authentic and I am sure IK's supporters will think they are photo shopped or pictures of projects being worked on at Mars)



I asked for a link, not personal estimation please....

Here you go, top of page 3:

http://www.s-ge.com/en/filefield-private/files/26090/field_blog_public_files/5513

plus many others sources too:

Slide 15: http://www.iepkarachi.org.pk/IEP Energy Presentation 30 Jan 13-Hasan Nawab.pdf

and yes, Wikipedia too: Electricity sector in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Don't like any of them? Here is the CIA:

Pakistan Energy 2014, CIA World Factbook

 

[Viper0011.]

Sorry, it is 7.9 but still look quite expensive

You are welcome to produce your own Bio-Gas in your backyard if you like, I am sure the government would allow it .

If this was 2.7 cents, some of you will still call it the highest on Earth without having any clue as to how the entire system works (unfortunately due to your own political reasons). You guys want to play politics at the cost of your own country's growth. Unbelievable.

A country with good prospects and talent, getting screwed by unavailable of electric outlet needs to produce electricity ASAP to grow the economy and to get people employed. The Tariffs aren't created in someone's personal office, these are created based on the market. If a company is investing significant amounts of money including setting up the infrastructure, the Tariff will be a little high as they have to recover their investments too. If you are paying cash or have financing, then the Tariff will be much lower as there is no risk that the company is taking.

Would you pay someone money from your pocket to start their business where they can use your services and then you provide services to them without making a profit? YET risking a lot of money not knowing if you'll even recover it? I think people should be thankful to the Chinese, the US aid and others who are investing and loaning money for these projects. Mind you, in a dangerous, high risk country (just take a look at the protests and associated drama)?

 

[Viper0011.]

Here you go, top of page 3:

http://www.s-ge.com/en/filefield-private/files/26090/field_blog_public_files/5513

plus many others sources too:

Slide 15: http://www.iepkarachi.org.pk/IEP Energy Presentation 30 Jan 13-Hasan Nawab.pdf

and yes, Wikipedia too: Electricity sector in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Don't like any of them? Here is the CIA:

Pakistan Energy 2014, CIA World Factbook

Your first link from the SWISS organization (s-ge.com).......was published in 2011. That's obviously obsolete as the Energy demands change every year and increase, some of the projects have started to produce initial small production of energy so that's also different from 2011.

Second link for EEIP (Electrical and Engineering Institute from Pakistan) has good details. But this is an academic institute. The ONLY place that will tell you about the Tariff in a certain situation, is the actual contract with terms and conditions between the two organizations or two governments (Tariffs are generally different per the project). There is a LOT of detail behind why on any project the Tariff is setup the way it is. Provide those details please.

Both Wiki and the Factbook provide similar details about Pakistan's energy needs, usage and all. None of these provides why the Tariffs are setup the way they are setup on different projects by different investment bodies and associated details, scope of work, scope of delivery and all.

Come back when you have those details so readers and I can actually SEE the reason behind the Tariff being 7, 9 or 2 cents.


See the above links. On the EEIP's presentation, slide number 16 mentions the total production capacity and its less than 12,000 MW just like I told you but you kept arguing as always without basis.

Plus, check out the link provided for Wiki, same information is there and I am quoting it:
"WAPDA’s total hydel and thermal capacity is 11,272 MW. Hydel electricity generated by WAPDA varies between two extremities, i.e., between minimum of 2,414 MW and maximum of 6,761 MW depending upon the river flow."

Guys - I don't mind debating but please check facts and have industry knowledge instead of insisting stubbornly on your claims without bases, just to prove someone wrong. That's like high school kids. I'd like to stick to facts if possible and not bring in personal biases.

 

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider : See the above links. On the EEIP's presentation, slide number 16 mentions the total production capacity and its less than 12,000 MW just like I told you but you kept arguing as always without basis.
Plus, check out the link provided to me by OP for Wiki, same information is there and I am quoting it:
"WAPDA’s total hydel and thermal capacity is 11,272 MW. Hydel electricity generated by WAPDA varies between two extremities, i.e., between minimum of 2,414 MW and maximum of 6,761 MW depending upon the river flow."
Guys - I don't mind debating but please check facts and have industry knowledge instead of insisting stubbornly on your claims without bases, just to prove someone wrong. That's like high school kids. I'd like to stick to facts if possible and not bring in personal biases.

Sir, the INSTALLED generation capacity is over 21,000MW according to the CIA. You keep confusing power generated with the installed capacity, because you cannot seem to accept what I said earlier - the problem is in the distribution and billing, not on the power generating side:

Pakistan Energy 2014, CIA World Factbook

Page last updated on January 28, 2014
Electricity - production:
94.65 billion kWh (2011 est.)
country comparison to the world: 35
[see also: Electricity - production country ranks ]

Electricity - consumption:
70.1 billion kWh (2011 est.)
country comparison to the world: 38
[see also: Electricity - consumption country ranks ]

Electricity - exports:
0 kWh (2012 est.)
country comparison to the world: 117
[see also: Electricity - exports country ranks ]

Electricity - imports:
0 kWh (2012 est.)
country comparison to the world: 120
[see also: Electricity - imports country ranks ]

Electricity - installed generating capacity:
22.27 million kW (2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 36

 

[Viper0011.]

Link is in first page, OP.

This is exactly what I was saying: read the first bolded line. Pakistan isn't doing anything, they've outsourced the entire thing to the Chinese (from finding financing to getting it financed and all the way to management) so they'll have to recover profit, usually around of below 20-25%. In this case, its 17%, If funding came from Pakistan or a third party approved it for Pakistan, the Tariff would be cheaper as the "risk" is shared.
In the US, Europe or Japan, etc, when GE and others take high risk projects, outside of the traditional profitability, a "contingency" of 20 to 25% is added by default. Same is true across the globe.
IMO, this is actually a great deal, no risk and only 17% return for a few years and even that reduces down long term AND 72 months (7 years) of grace period which is HUGE. You usually get 2-3 years tops and the loan is due back in 3, 5, 7 or 10 years max.

Here's the main content from the OP:
CWE of China is required to construct the project on build, own, operate and transfer (BOOT) basis.
Under the agreement, the average tariff for first 12 years has been set at 8.9 cents per unit which would come down to 5.1 cents per unit for next 18 years. The average tariff for 30-year life of the project works out at 7.9 cents per unit.

It ensures 17 per cent return on equity on internal rate of return basis.

The tariff has been finalised on the assurance of the Chinese government that the contractor would get lending from foreign financial institutions for a period of 18 years inclusive of 72-month grace period at interest rate of six-month London Interbank Offered Rate (Libor) plus 4.75pc.

Sir, the INSTALLED generation capacity is over 21,000MW according to the CIA. You keep confusing power generated with the installed capacity, because you cannot seem to accept what I said earlier - the problem is in the distribution and billing, not on the power generating side:

Pakistan Energy 2014, CIA World Factbook

Electricity - installed generating capacity:
22.27 million kW (2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 36

Ok....we are gong in circles. Please see the above:
1) Installed "generating capacity"...doesn't mean that the infrastructure is READY to produce 22,000 MW. It means that there is "capacity" to go to that level. Usually means additional expansions have to be made to get there from below 12,000 MW current generating ability.

For example, the -16 fighter jets (an example since this is a defense forum) have the installed capacity to use BVR munitions. But what does it mean for a Block 15 plane (in PAF's case)? It means you have to go through the MLU process and upgrade its systems and some structures.
Similarly, the infrastructure was initially designed to consider expansion up to 22,000 MW in mind. Can it do it today? NO. It needs expansion projects to happen (more generators, equipment and all), which won't make sense as it is VERY expensive. The government is spending that money on Hydro projects which is the best option from ALL sides.

Last but not least....these estimates are from 2010 AND these are "estimates" (see where it says 2010 est.). Meaning its not accurate either. Remember, these numbers come from government bodies in countries like Pakistan (WAPDA is a government organization). So, different government's can lie about this for political reasons. You should keep that in mind.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I doubt it considering the Model Town massacre and the Rise of Gullu Butt, these sort of things will come to haunt the Government as long as they're in office.

What's worse is that the Pakistani military has been out of office for the past 6-years, hungry, desperate and I'm sure they're preparing to pounce on the treasury within the next 3-years.

No one can defend GB incident.

But it doesn't warrant toppling of the whole damn gov.

We all know that local police officials got the newly given powers to shoot

And they shot at unruly crowd.

Perhaps we need to bring back the shoot to kill authorization system from previous years.

When a black boy gets killed in Furguson MO, blame goes to the police officer

nobody should say that President of the USA should be toppled by a military coup.

Please use some international standards before advocating a specific solution for a problem.

 

[VCheng]

...........
Ok....we are gong in circles. Please see the above:
1) Installed "generating capacity"...doesn't mean that the infrastructure is READY to produce 22,000 MW. It means that there is "capacity" to go to that level. Usually means additional expansions have to be made to get there from below 12,000 MW current generating ability.

For example, the -16 fighter jets (an example since this is a defense forum) have the installed capacity to use BVR munitions. But what does it mean for a Block 15 plane (in PAF's case)? It means you have to go through the MLU process and upgrade its systems and some structures.
Similarly, the infrastructure was initially designed to consider expansion up to 22,000 MW in mind. Can it do it today? NO. It needs expansion projects to happen (more generators, equipment and all), which won't make sense as it is VERY expensive. The government is spending that money on Hydro projects which is the best option from ALL sides.

Last but not least....these estimates are from 2010 AND these are "estimates" (see where it says 2010 est.). Meaning its not accurate either. Remember, these numbers come from government bodies in countries like Pakistan (WAPDA is a government organization). So, different government's can lie about this for political reasons. You should keep that in mind.

The only one going around in circles is you Sir. Trying to confuse generation capacity with "infrastructure" is plain daft by saying "Installed "generating capacity"...doesn't mean that the infrastructure is READY to produce 22,000 MW". These are precise terms and have nothing to do with F-16s.

Installed power generating capacity is defined as what amount of power can be produced at the various sources, while power generated is the power actually produced. If less power is produced simply because the grid cannot handle it or if the consumers cannot pay for it in a timely manner, then adding more power generating capacity is not the answer. Upgrading the distribution network and reducing the accounts receivable are the correct answers.

The installed generating capacity in Pakistan is well over 21,000 MW.

You blew this one, 100%.

 

[Shahmir]

There are threads on here that show you the work being done, the progress being made in pictures. Ask @cb4 . He was kind enough to send me a few links yesterday. You have to be blind not to see projects and work being done in colored pictures ( and they are authentic and I am sure IK's supporters will think they are photo shopped or pictures of projects being worked on at Mars)



I asked for a link, not personal estimation please....

So-called IK supporters have very low IQ so I don't take their opinions seriously, I just said that it would have brought more credibility to the news related to these projects if we can find some links about these projects from chinese sources.

LONG LIVE KALABAGH DAM.

The funniest comment after some long time, saying long live to something that does not even exist on ground

How about his screen name----!!!!

@Chak Bamu , Sipah-e-Muhammad is the name of a banned terroist shia organization, this user name should not be allowed