2,450 expats embrace Islam in Saudi Arabia

[p(-)0ENiX]

Coming back to the topic, I don't see anything wrong with this conversion. I mean if it helps making the life of these expats any better then why not?

As far as the concern of forced conversion, coercing and enticing people into accepting Islam goes, well am sure Islam is very much against forced conversions. So if you believe in Prophet Mohammed and Allah, which am sure you do( since you are doing dawah), any forced and coerced conversion will not go down well with them, and you are most probably offending Allah and committing a sin.

If you can convince someone into believing and accepting in Islam, purely on the basis of its teachings, then kudos to you. But if you are not, and instead coercing and luring people with monetary and other benefits, then deep down you know you are committing a sin. You might get praise and pats on your back for converting a "non-believer", but thats just in this world. Those praise and pats won't count when the time for judgement comes, cause as far as Allah is concerned you have committed grave sin.

Remember you can't cheat God/Allah, for he knows it all.

I think I already clarified that forced conversions through coercion are impossible in this particular scenario. Lectures are organized in different parts of the country in multiple languages as far as I know alongside the distribution of the scripture & other religious text books. People are informed of the religion & invited to accept it, & those that do accept it, do so out of free will, as do those who do not. Islam is against forced conversions, & it needs to be repeated that such a conversion wouldn't count because the individual in this case does not believe in its teachings, & the Quran itself forbids compulsion in religion. Thus, it must be out of free will.

Traditionally, the logic behind giving new converts Zakat was to help them settle down if they are harassed or asked to leave their communities by family or friends for their decision. It's also for aiding them in monetary issues that may befall them as a result of their conversion, for instance; the shunning of finance. Apart from that, it may be given to aid expenses arising from the desire to learn about Islam. I do not think that financially stable individuals are applicable for Zakat upon conversion, but someone else may know that better. Inviting someone to Islam means debating religions with mutual respect, not providing people with cash to convince them to convert.

 

[kbd-raaf]

Technically i was required to delete your post, however i decided not to because you are a sensible fella, so i thought an argument needs to take place.

A l Is your opinion an educated one?...Which means you have done extensive studies on global religions and in the end decided your current opinion.

B l Or is your opinion based on 'accumilated conventional wisdom'? ... Which means that your opinion is based on the blanket opinion that exists in the social setting you have interacted with for a lifetime or your boyhood?

It's an educated opinion. I believe religions should be relegated to nothing more than respect for tradition and culture. i.e I am from a Hindu background, I go to many of our festivals and that, but I don't believe God/s exist. I have not done extensive study on global religions but that being said knowing what I know about the origins of the universe whilst utilising my logical capabilities, I can deduce that for God/s to exist there has to be legitimate proof. The burden of which lies with the person making the positive claim (i.e God/s exists).

I have grown up in a social setting where religion has played a fairly big part. I.e Hinduism/Buddhism/Agnostics at home <-> Islam/Buddhism/Christianity/Hinduism/Atheism/Agnostics in my friend circle/s.

I present the same questions to you:

A) Is your opinion an educated one? Have you done extensive studies on global religions and in the end decided your current opinion.

B) Is your opinion based on accumulated conventional wisdom?

 

[Roybot]

I think I already clarified that forced conversions through coercion are impossible in this particular scenario. Lectures are organized in different parts of the country in multiple languages as far as I know alongside the distribution of the scripture & other religious text books. People are informed of the religion & invited to accept it, & those that do accept it, do so out of free will, as do those who do not. Islam is against forced conversions, & it needs to be repeated that such a conversion wouldn't count because the individual in this case does not believe in its teachings, & the Quran itself forbids compulsion in religion. Thus, it must be out of free will.

Traditionally, the logic behind giving new converts Zakat was to help them settle down if they are harassed or asked to leave their communities by family or friends for their decision. It's also for aiding them in monetary issues that may befall them as a result of their conversion, for instance; the shunning of finance. Apart from that, it may be given to aid expenses arising from the desire to learn about Islam. I do not think that financially stable individuals are applicable for Zakat upon conversion, but someone else may know that better. Inviting someone to Islam means debating religions with mutual respect, not providing people with cash to convince them to convert.

As I said you can sugar coat all you want, but it is what it is. You are luring people by giving the hope/promise of monetary benefits. This is no different from what evangelicals do. Their motivation is not the desire to follow "the right path", but its money and other benefits.

And once again, if it helps the new converts make their life better than we as random people have no right to question it. But if you think that converting people by giving them monetary benefits is going to get you in Allah's good books, then you are mistaken. Its funny when people think that they can cheat God.

And how does "desire to learn about Islam increase expenses"? All you need is a copy of the Quran to understand Islam, and that you can get free of cost from any Mosque.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

As I said you can sugar coat all you want, but it is what it is. You are luring people by giving the hope/promise of monetary benefits. This is no different than what evangelicals do.

And once again, if it helps the new converts make their life better than we as random people have no right to question it. But if you think that converting people by giving them monetary benefits is going to get you in Allah's good books, then you are mistaken.

Its funny when people think that they can cheat God.

No one is cheating God, & neither are we sugar coating the situation. This money is generally only given to those converts who deserve it. As in the example I gave previously, people who have let's say been abandoned by their families for converting ending their source of revenue. They are applicable for receiving some charity from other Muslims. A lot of people convert without receiving any charity upon conversion simply because they do not need it. I do not recall rich people being given charity upon conversion either since Zakat is reserved for the needy, be they new converts or already existing Muslims. The difference is that Zakat may be given to poor converts, but it isn't meant to bribe them to convert. Can this system be exploited? Yes, it can be, but the intent has never been to bribe the poor. Muslim scholars always invite people to Islam by preaching the message, as was the case in the original article posted on this thread.

As I said you can sugar coat all you want, but it is what it is. You are luring people by giving the hope/promise of monetary benefits. This is no different from what evangelicals do. Their motivation is not the desire to follow "the right path", but its money and other benefits.

And once again, if it helps the new converts make their life better than we as random people have no right to question it. But if you think that converting people by giving them monetary benefits is going to get you in Allah's good books, then you are mistaken. Its funny when people think that they can cheat God.

And how does "desire to learn about Islam increase expenses"? All you need is a copy of the Quran to understand Islam, and that you can get free of cost from any Mosque.

We can not judge any converts motivation for conversion, if a few people exploit the system, then the blame lies on them. A desire to learn Islam could increase expenses, because it isn't simply about reading the Quran but other sources as well detailing the lives & examples provided by the Prophets, the expense of a tutor, etc.

 

[Roybot]

We can not judge any converts motivation for conversion, if a few people exploit the system, then the blame lies on them. A desire to learn Islam could increase expenses, because it isn't simply about reading the Quran but other sources as well detailing the lives & examples provided by the Prophets, the expense of a tutor, etc.

But then you were also claiming that these people convert because of the teachings and lessons of Islamic scholars and not because of benefits. So why do they need to "further understand" Islam and apparently spend money trying to understand it !

Can you accept Islam without fully understanding it? Would you as a Muslim be ok with someone converting to Islam just for the sake of it, without fully understanding it? And if a person is converting to Islam without fully understanding the religion, then what motivation is driving him to convert? Something to think about maybe.

And as far as your claims of the hiring of tutors and buying books to understand Islam goes, again all that is available free of cost, in any madrassah or mosque. And even if it isn't in some places , why can't the same zakat fund be utilized to make "education centers", which can help new converts to adapt to the Muslim way of life, instead of giving them money?

Of course we are no one to judge someones motivation and intent, but its these very incentives and benefits that's poisoning the motives of the new converts. What do you as a Muslim want, just sheer number of Muslims, Muslims who are muslims just for the sake of the benefits, or Muslims who actually believe in the teachings of the Quran and Allah?

As I said, getting people to convert by incentivizing it will earn you praise in this world, will give you the bragging rights on anonymous internet forums (Oh Islam is the fastest growing religion and what not), but is it right? Will it be acceptable to Allah?

 

[Kompromat]

It's an educated opinion. I believe religions should be relegated to nothing more than respect for tradition and culture. i.e I am from a Hindu background, I go to many of our festivals and that, but I don't believe God/s exist. I have not done extensive study on global religions but that being said knowing what I know about the origins of the universe whilst utilising my logical capabilities, I can deduce that for God/s to exist there has to be legitimate proof. The burden of which lies with the person making the positive claim (i.e God/s exists).

I have grown up in a social setting where religion has played a fairly big part. I.e Hinduism/Buddhism/Agnostics at home <-> Islam/Buddhism/Christianity/Hinduism/Atheism/Agnostics in my friend circle/s.

I present the same questions to you:

A) Is your opinion an educated one? Have you done extensive studies on global religions and in the end decided your current opinion.

B) Is your opinion based on accumulated conventional wisdom?

In other words your opinion is rooted in scientific narrative?

 

[kbd-raaf]

In other words your opinion is rooted in scientific narrative?

If you mean what I think you mean, then yes, pretty much.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

But then you were claiming that these people convert because of the teachings and lessons of Islamic scholars, so why do they need to "further understand" Islam and apparently spend money trying to understand it !

Can you accept Islam without fully understanding it? Would you as a Muslim be ok with someone converting to Islam just for the sake of it? And if a person is converting to Islam without fully understanding the religion, then what motivation is driving him to convert? Something to think about maybe.

And as far as your claims of the hiring of tutors and buying books to understand Islam goes, again all that is available free of cost, in any madrassah or mosque. And even if it isn't , why can't the same zakat fund be utilized to make "education centers", which can help new converts to adapt to the Muslim way of life?

Of course we are no one to judge someones motivation, but its these very incentives and benefits that's poisoning the motives of the new converts. What do you as a Muslim want, just sheer number of Muslims, Muslims who are muslims just for the sake of the benefits, or Muslims who actually believe in the teachings of the Quran and Allah?

As I said, getting people to convert by incentivizing it will earn you praise in this world, will give you the bragging rights on anonymous internet forums (Oh Islam is the fastest growing religion and what not), but is it right? Will it be acceptable to Allah?

As long as a person believes that there is only one God & Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is his messenger then he or she is a Muslim. When inviting people to Islam, that is what scholars focus on the most & upon other topics too alongside those they are questioned about. However, that does not encompass every teaching of Islam, anyone with an ounce of logic should understand that. Even people who were born Muslims do not know every ruling & legislation of Islam. The same applies to followers of many other religions. Their motivation does not matter to ordinary people because their conversion as per our & every other religions' beliefs is to follow the right path. As long as they follow the religion after conversion, why should we doubt that their conversion wasn't sincere? Even if we do doubt their sincerity, then that can't be used to judge them due to the fact that we do not & can not know their true intentions. People can convert to any religion they want for whatever reason they want, most people simply do not care. All the textbooks in the world pertaining to Islam aren't always available free of cost, & neither is their education. Needy people are applicable to receive charity regardless of them being new converts or born Muslims. Zakat has to be paid to the poor, it isn't used to fund other activities. It's up to the receiver to decide how he or she may use it.

Which incentives & benefits are most converts receiving? A hell of a lot of people who convert get no Zakat whatsoever because it is reserved for the needy alone. Does that continuously needed to be repeated? Neither is any payment made in the form of bribery either. Middle class converts to Islam receive no charity upon conversion. Furthermore, people may acquire charity even if they are non-Muslims although that obviously won't be the compulsory Zakat. Note that Islamic governments have to care for all of their citizens regardless of religious status. Besides, even needy converts can't rely solely on Zakat to survive & paying them or any other poor Muslim is solely dependent on the giver. Thus, it is illogical to assume that every convert changes religion for monetary benefits, & it's highly unlikely that charity alone can be enough of a benefit to convert. Of course, it is always better to have only those people convert that truly believe in the religion & judging by the efforts made by scholars that invite people to Islam, that's most likely the case. Opportunistic people can't always be controlled, & as stated earlier, the majority of the populace does not care about the number of Muslims. Islam is already one of the largest religions in the world. Those who convert do it for their own sake, not to please existing Muslims. I haven't bragged about Islam being the fastest growing religion on this thread. God does not have an issue with providing charity to the needy as per Islamic texts, thus charity should be acceptable to Him. This isn't bribery, anyone that exploits the system does no harm to the religion whatsoever. Another thing, as per Islamic beliefs, no human is responsible for another's actions so already existing Muslims have nothing to lose or gain by another's conversion.

 

[Kompromat]

If you mean what I think you mean, then yes, pretty much.

How do you feel about subjecting a 'metaphysical' phenomenon (spirituality) to a knowledge base that itself is subject to the laws of science?..

According to the later if a phenomenon cannot be quantified in mathematics, it doesn't exist. Therefore subjecting a metaphysical phenomenon (spirituality) to a knowledge base which by design demands mathematical quntification for authenticating the subject's existence is ALWAYS going to have the same answer....that the test object (spirituality) is non existent because it cannot be quantified.

It raises a few questions.

1: Why a metaphysical phenomenon needs to be subjected to the scientific narrative when the chances of an alternative result are zero by design.

2: Scientific study's very core is its ability to quantify the subject, work out the variable and come up with results that are different from the previous understanding?

3: Are we on the right track when we are trying to quantify a metaphysical phenomenon through the laws of Physics??

I don't want an answer, i just want you to pay attention and have an alternative thought about it.

 

[Soms]

How do you feel about subjecting a 'metaphysical' phenomenon (spirituality) to a knowledge base that itself is subject to the laws of science?..

According to the later if a phenomenon cannot be quantified in mathematics, it doesn't exist. Therefore subjecting a metaphysical phenomenon (spirituality) to a knowledge base which by design demands mathematical quntification for authenticating the subject's existence is ALWAYS going to have the same answer....that the test object (spirituality) is non existent because it cannot be quantified.

It raises a few questions.

1: Why a metaphysical phenomenon needs to be subjected to the scientific narrative when the chances of an alternative result are zero by design.

2: Scientific study's very core is its ability to quantify the subject, work out the variable and come up with results that are different from the previous understanding?

3: Are we on the right track when we are trying to quantify a metaphysical phenomenon through the laws of Physics??

I don't want an answer, i just want you to pay attention and have an alternative thought about it.

Metaphysics is NOT science!
noun: metaphysics

1. 1.
   the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
   • abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality.
     "his concept of society as an organic entity is, for market liberals, simply metaphysics"

EDIT: It not even FRINGE science.

Your take @kbd-raaf?

Oh...and continuing on what I mentioned in post #226
Religion manifests it self in Games like Age of Empires too.

Remember the Babylonian, Roman priests which could even convert catapults?

Or the latest Civilization 5, in which I converted Jerusalem to Islam and Mecca to Christianity....an awesome game mind you

 

[kbd-raaf]

How do you feel about subjecting a 'metaphysical' phenomenon (spirituality) to a knowledge base that itself is subject to the laws of science?..

According to the later if a phenomenon cannot be quantified in mathematics, it doesn't exist. Therefore subjecting a metaphysical phenomenon (spirituality) to a knowledge base which by design demands mathematical quntification for authenticating the subject's existence is ALWAYS going to have the same answer....that the test object (spirituality) is non existent because it cannot be quantified.

It raises a few questions.

1: Why a metaphysical phenomenon needs to be subjected to the scientific narrative when the chances of an alternative result are zero by design.

2: Scientific study's very core is its ability to quantify the subject, work out the variable and come up with results that are different from the previous understanding?

3: Are we on the right track when we are trying to quantify a metaphysical phenomenon through the laws of Physics??

I don't want an answer, i just want you to pay attention and have an alternative thought about it.

Metaphysics is pure philosophy, it has no basis in reality. Religion is based in metaphysics, therefore I need to reject the crux of your argument.

Just an aside, out of curiosity, I assume you're Muslim, are you an ardent follower? i.e does your religion take part in all/most of your life?

 

[Kompromat]

Did anyone claim that metaphysics is a branch of science?

 

[rockstar08]

no matter how much we fight , how much we have differences but in the end we will unite one day under one banner that day is not that far ... Inshallah Allah will grant us the same reputation which he grants in the Time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and great Caliphs of Islam ..

 

[kbd-raaf]

Did anyone claim that metaphysics is a branch of science?

Okay, so how do you want me to approach your post?

This is so far from off topic for this thread :p

 

[Kompromat]

Okay, so how do you want me to approach your post?

This is so far from off topic for this thread :p

Can subjecting a Philospohical phenomenon to the laws of science yield a variable result?

If an experiment is incapable of producing variable results, it means that the experiment itself is either invalid or it needs to be changed.